Its official- I have 6Bt's

[Carl]

Road Trip-

I'm in Staten island, John Haszard lives in Virginia and the motors he was selling reside in Chrisfield Maryland.

My buddy wanted no part of me trucking up motors, insisted we take his pickup or his box truck to go down and grab them. My wife said Maryland, "CRABS" I'm going...then of course buddies wife had to go to keep my wife company and one long day turned into two long days.

Picked up U-Haul Trailer in Jersey City Sunday afternoon.
The Plan was to stay in Salisbury at the Hampton Inn, go out for Crabs, then back for some shut eye. The next morning we'd make last leg of trip down.

We were running a little behind, congested Jersey City and a very slow U-Haul place. So I called to push our dinner reservation back a bit at the Red Roost crab house in Quantico Md. Answer machine picks up "We are Closed for the 2018 Season'. That is the bad part about online reservations, the service took them and the place was closed. So our smart phones came out looking for a "Plan B" Crab House. It was a trip up and across Md to Harris Crab house in Kent Island. It was the closest open place we could find open, just made it there too. All I can say, I hope U-Haul does not have GPS on their trailers, they stipulate they must be kept under 55pmh. We had a great dinner and just made it to hotel for 11pm.

Monday morning John Haszard confirmed we were still a go, he was about ready to fly over from Va in a friends Cessna, meeting up about 9am.

As with all Bertram 31 members it was a pleasure to meet John. Always great to put a face to the words, to the voice. We did not get to talk very long as he had to get back and we had to secure motors and head home...but very glad I got to meet John. Thank you again for coming over...and for bringing those Air Filters.

So whats a story without a few pictures....

John and me. I had on the gloves and John's wearing the hat.




Loaded and ready to go...




248 miles later we arrive at shop...nice snug driveway.






I can't say I have plenty of room to store them here in the shop...but it will give me some time to get better acquainted with them.
Looks like project will kickoff in March, that will give me some time to get the needed items in and ready.




Thanks to all that helped me get this figured out, offering advise and good wishes.

Carl

[PeterPalmieri]

AWESOME

[1962 31]

210s love em canyon runs on 150 gallon round trips
any questions feel free to ask

[Rawleigh]

John is a great guy! I ran into him at the hardware store a week or so ago. Did he tell you about the planes he is restoring? Rawleigh

[Carl]

John is a great guy! I ran into him at the hardware store a week or so ago. Did he tell you about the planes he is restoring? Rawleigh

I believe the plane restoration is two Piper Cubs and a Cessna 180. On the hard it's a 31 & 39 Ford pickup and two 30 Ford Tudor sedans. That was in addition to another 31 Bertram he wanted to do. Luckily for me he decided against the last giving up the 6Bt's. Yes, a real nice guy.

[Carl]

210s love em canyon runs on 150 gallon round trips
any questions feel free to ask

Thank you. I went over your posts along with a bunch of others before deciding. Although I kinda knew these are what I wanted.
Slow revving, simple mechanical motors that have fairly inexpensive, available parts that will push me to a 20knt cruise had me sold.
Everything else is a fringe benefit.


Questions at hand are:

What did you do for exhaust?
Know anyone with a motor template I might be able to use?
Did you bump up to 1-1/2" water intakes

I'm sure I'll have a bunch more once I get started.

Thanks,
Carl

[mike ohlstein]

Cool. Congratulations.

[Yannis]

Carl,

Congratulations, this is a new era for your boat, enjoy it.
I take it, you are starting to see some light in the tunnel of college fees and the like!

[Bruce]

John is a class act.
Glad you got them Carl.

Unfortunatly Maryland crabs are not what they used to be.

[Stephan]

Congratulations Carl-
I will now live vicariously through you - make it as great as I imagine.
Best,
Setphan

[Carl]

John is a class act.
Glad you got them Carl.

Unfortunatly Maryland crabs are not what they used to be.

Especially not this time of year, they were brought in from Louisianan...


Still something about eating them in a Md crab house that makes us smile.

[Carl]

Carl,

Congratulations, this is a new era for your boat, enjoy it.
I take it, you are starting to see some light in the tunnel of college fees and the like!

Thanks Yannis.

No light yet, I kept checking and finally gave into the temptation.

[Tony Meola]

Carl

Congratulations. You will have no regrets.

For a template, reach out for Lilco. He used to have one. I believe he did loan it out at one point. For exhaust, what size are the ones you have now. I have 5 inch exhausts from the gassers and we kept them, no issues.

If you want to get fancy and you can run them down the outside alleys, and to not have glass work, you can use two 45's when you get to the transom to push them out the current openings. If you do that you may need to up to 6 inch exhaust, but you should check with Bruce perhaps.

Let the project begin.

[DanielM]

Excellent Carl. It will be fun to follow your progress. Congratulations.

[John F.]

Congrats to you and John.

[Charlie J]

sweet Carl

[Snipe]

Nice build yourself some Dolly’s so you can roll them around I made some from 2x12 and some casters from Home Depot. Good luck with the repower. One day I will learn how to put pictures up here so I can share my repower.

[Rawleigh]

Carl: I may have Mike Kennedy's motor mount templates somewhere in the barn.

[1962 31]

I made a simple template from 2x4 and a 4x4 I think my cummins manual had all the measurements to make one
I went with 4 inch exhaust stock 454 size? no mufflers and made surge tubes
very grumpy sounding at idle but at cruise you really don't hear the exhaust anymore
the water itakes are still 1 1/4 temps stay at 170 unless I push it hard in the summer when the river is in high 70s or 80s and still never over 190

[PeterPalmieri]

Carl,

No pressure but we are still counting on that trip around NY harbor, so don't take to long in getting everything squared away.

[Carl]

Carl,

No pressure but we are still counting on that trip around NY harbor, so don't take to long in getting everything squared away.

LOL...No pressure, the plan is to be in and running before Spring ends.

And yes looking forward to the trip to Lady Liberty.

[Lars]

Great engines - great story! Congrats

[Charlie J]

Carl: I may have Mike Kennedy's motor mount templates somewhere in the barn.

Rawleigh
what ever happened to mikey
never here from him anymore

[Rawleigh]

He is still around, but he has been fully engrossed in building a new house.

[Tommy]

Carl, congratulations! My cousin had the 6BT 210's in a single engine work boat and I think it had 6,000 hassle-free hours on it when he sold her; you will not be disappointed! And John Haszard.....as Bruce commented, truly a class act. I had the pleasure of hanging out with John at one of the NC Rendezvous events, and he is as solid as they come. He piloted a huge USAF jet for years, I'm thinking the C-5M Super Galaxy, or one of it's sisters. It is reassuring to know that we have (and had) folks like John serving us in the military.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp- ... er-III.jpg

[Dug]

Carl,

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! I am so completely excited for you!!!!!!

Dug

[CamB25]

Dem are strange-lookin' outboards, Jethro!

Good luck with the swap!

[coolair]

As apposed to starting another new re-power thread, I figured I would hijack Carl's

Carl, how is the re-power coming?? I am in a bit of a dilemma...

I have been trying to decide what color to paint the boat white or light blue, I have also been trying to figure out what I should do with the bottom paint since the boat is on a lift. So what do I do? Call up good old John Cranston because he has a blue boat and his is on a lift, figured he could give me some info. Well what does 'ol John do?? He tells me about a guy he knows that knows a guy who may have two Cummins he is trying to sell. I figured it was a bunch of bull, but what the heck. So I call the guy and then go look at the engines.
300HP Cummins with ZF gears shrink wrapped on pallets. Supposedly new long blocks with new or reman everything else. Gears are original nothing done to them other than some seals. They were uncrated, assembled, started on the test stand, brought to temp, checked and then shrink wrapped roughly 2 years ago, and have sat ever since. The catch- you also gotta take the 31' North Coast they were originally in, which is floating at the dock....

So my dilemma.
Do I scrap the 2 big blocks that are completely rebuilt and finished, other than exhaust risers and some paint on transmissions that are ready to go back in the boat and jump off into the diesel conversion?

[Tony Meola]

Matt

You need to do some upgrades for those cummins. 1 1/2 inch shaft, 6 inch exhaust and I believe 2 inch thru hulls to start, not including heavier wiring and cutting down the engine beds.

However, if the price is right I would have to think real hard about it.

But then again what do you do with the North Coast?

[Carl]

-You can try to give away the North Coast

-Install your big blocks in North Coast, freshen the boat up and try to sell in hopes of gaining back "some" of your money

-Rent a chain saw and a dumpster and have at it... or around here its about a grand to chop up a boat that size.


Between that part AND taking on a diesel conversion, it sounds quite ambitious.


I had contemplated doing the same thing a year earlier.
Buying a boat with diesels, swapping motors and selling.

Upfront the numbers worked out...till I dug a little deeper and the list of little things added up.
Also taking on that much work I'd have to hire a guy to help or I'd never get done...that's when I realized it wasn't going to work for me at that time.


Anyway, thats me...


So you would need shafts, wheels, struts (or machine open) motor beds, mounts, electrical upgrade to crank motors, Do the motors come with panels and harnesses? Fuel filters, returns, need to up size your exhaust, new mufflers, riser and for Port motor a riser that swings over the motor, packing gland...maybe shaft log, larger seacocks and intake hoses. You will also want to insulate for sound and with 300hp...those motors will need to breath lots of fresh air.

Someones word they ran well 2 years ago does not sit well with me...so an engine surveyor to go check them out, give them a run. Still only sitting on land so no load test. Fresh oil, so oil test is pretty much useless... So like me, even after checking them out...I'll really know how good they are when I get outside the harbor and give it some throttle. Till then...


All that said when done you will be able to burn diesel fuel. 300hp you can cruise considerable faster with more range and no more struggling to get over big waves and swells.
That gives the boat some additional resale value.

You could also feel better that you will no longer be riding around with a hundred plus gallons of gasoline under your decks. Not something that really concerned me...aside from doing the required sniff tests and checks. But Now that I am converting I make sure to raise that point...especially when the wife is around.


So, how far have I got.
-Bought white paint and touched up a few spots.
-Trans valve was hanging up with trolling valve...I found someone sheared a pin on stop screw. removed, replaced...works well now.
-Placed motors on dolly so I can move a little out of the way...still in middle of shop floor, off to the side.
-lined up mechanic to start in March when he returns from Florida
-placed boat in accessible place in yard
-started removing tower to ease motor access.
-started getting parts together. wheels, shafts, couplings

Pulled gasoline from boats tank.

Have basic plan for making risers

Saving up coin and trying to get ahead on work so I can get out and start project when weather breaks.

[coolair]

Tony, Carl. Thank as always invaluable info and confirmed what I was thinking. I truly hate playing the what if game, but for the sake of argument I am going to respond.
The asking price for everything is $25K

Since my engines were out I had the engine beds redone as well. I would just have to cut them flat.

So lets assume the bellow is correct and i can re-use the parts out of the North Coast, again it was all supposedly replaced new 2 or so years ago(the boat was redone used 3 times, then stolen. They ran it on a sand bar and melted the motor. Insurance paid owner he had everything fixed and then said screw it and bought a new boat,she has say ever since).
The shafts will work other than needing to be cut down and already have new drip-less seals on them.
I can use thin wall cutlass bearings.
The existing exhaust elbows/risers good shape.
These are older style motors which have nothing electric on them. so best i can tell there is not special harness or panels.
It already has Racor fuel filters.
I can use the mufflers in north coast.
I was already going to re-do my electrical.

Assuming i have the engines checked out and they are ok.
That leaves me with needing to upgrade the water intake and sea cocks, pull the deck back up to run new exhaust, add more air intake, possibly wheels, possibly shaft logs, run the fuel return lines(tank already has the fittings and the fuel lines were upgraded already)

And all so I can burn diesel,go faster, go further,not have a "bomb" under the deck, better resale, the "cool" factor on a boat which I will probably hardly ever get to use?

What am I missing?

[Carl]

What am I missing?

Time



Seems like you have a good grasp of the rest...if your going to be wrenching like I plan to, it's a job that requires time. Or some coin to pay for someone else's time. Or for me a combination.

Add it all up and see if it makes sense.

For me, last year I found I wanted to take longer rides again. While motors never gave a hiccup I felt I needed to service them if I wanted to keep doing that moving forward. I could not justify putting money into 40 year old 440's. I did not want to replace with someones headache RTO's and did not want the price tag of new gas motors.

Diesel made sense to me this time. Dependable, add some boat value, a bit more speed although far from a need. Which is good as 210hp she will not be a speed demon.

[bob lico]

Carl you have all the notes written down in a little book ;Phoenix repowered not by the book, any questions pm me.

[Tony Meola]

Matt

Not sure exactly what is done that does not need to be changed, but if nothing is done and you do not do the work, figure the minimum is $60,000. That is:

Wiring,
bulkheading,
rudder shelf
shaft logs
engines
Tranny's
hydralic steering
Engine beds
battery's
shafts
rudders
a million nuts, bolts and screws
fuel filters
sound down

Then add the what the hell factor. I am here I might as well change it.


Then add labor.

[coolair]

And time is something I don't always have. Which is how the boat ended up in the yard to begin with. It was going to just get the deck finished and I pulled the oh what the hell card and here we are. Oh what the hell, its easy to pull the motors and clean up the engine beds, oh what the hell the engines are out I might as well go through them, oh what the hell etc etc. Yall all know the drill. Before you know it your $5k budget turns into $20K!
he little things that add up, good hose clamps for example aren't cheap even with wholesale accounts.

I did rudder shelves and steering a few years ago.

Sorry Carl, I didnt mean to completely high jack your thread.

Here is what the engine beds look like right now.


This is one of the gas engines on my custom test stand.

[Carl]

Matt, You didn't hijack the thread, you revived it. And not sure it was my thread anyway, yeah I started it but these threads get a mind of their own and morph into what they morph into. All good and why we come here.


Yes, your Oh What the Hell is why I refused to start working on my old motors.

A seemingly simple change of the rear main seal meant I'd have to change all the hoses, might as well do manifolds...have risers checked, distributor working fine, but old...tranny on one drags a bit...might as well get in and take care of that. I do one, might as well do the other.
Then doing all that...I know the 40 year old gas motors have 30 years of running since the last rebuild...should go in and check out the internals...then whatever is found would mean I should spiff it up, as I'm there. That leads into two motor rebuilds and two rebuilds on trannies. What I'm left with is a nice bill, lots of time and a boat that is still running kinda just like it was, maybe I could bring back up the pitch on wheels to go a bit faster as motors are not tired...but basically the same boat with same resale value.
Doing all that work with that kind of price tag I needed something more then just regaining my confidence in the ol' motors.

While Tony is right when motors are out and everything is up and exposed it is the right time to tackle many other projects.
But unless I need to, the ones not directly related to the motor conversion and good running will wait. My goal is motors, fuel lines, filters, beds, shaft log, struts with backing pads, exhaust risers with upgrade to 5" from motors to transom and electrical related to motors then get out and use boat.
All goes well, I'll get into tackling other projects as I use boat or next season depending on time and funds.




Matt...most important...your pictures are not there!

So what would yo do with the rebuilt motors? Get much of a return on them to put towards project or do they become a loss? Whats the going rate for chopping up a boat of that size in your area?
Would it pay to install gas motors and sell as a package...or cost of installing becomes more then its worth?

For me, my big turning factor was I started using the boat more again and wanted to start using more so dealing with the power end needed to be addressed.

Before...why go diesel so it can sit at the dock or just used to run 15-20 minutes to a destination right outside the harbor. Gas worked plenty fine for me, even the older motors.

[coolair]

I tried to re-do the photo links. I can see them on my computer. Let me know.

As far as the rebuilt motors, they are big block Fords. I could probably sell them to someone rebuilding an old for truck or a hot rod. My dad wants to put one in hi T-bucket. Thats really my problem, if I would not have already spent the money on them I would jump on the diesels. Putting them in the other boat would be a waste. As far as the other boat, could try and sell it but more than likely it would get donated to the homeless red snapper foundation.

[Carl]

Selling the Lh to automotive crowd is doable...what about the counter rotating motor?
Although it would be priceless to see there face when it started up.


I can see the picture of boats cockpit, stringers. Mine needs a major cleanup before getting into modifying anything.


Deal comes up after redoing motors...

Isn't that always the way.



These motors came up the week after I doubled up on daughters tuition payment. which of course was the amount I was originally short.

[Carl]

Carl you have all the notes written down in a little book ;Phoenix repowered not by the book, any questions pm me.

Bob-

Thank you for the offer.


I have much of your install saved away safe and sound.

Wish I had the time and resources to hit them all right off the bat...but know I'll be missing a few the 1st go round.


I am going to shoot for mounting them low as possible but be able to swing a 20" wheel with 1-1/2" shafts. I see custom SS struts being made, also adding strut supports. I doubt I can use the same shaft log...so maybe that gets done too while floors up.

Remote oil drain lines/pump.

As I want mufflers I am going up to 5" exhaust and see me going with dry risers instead of using surge tubes...more then plenty for 210's.

Fuel- Aside from adding Racors, I might stick with what I have as far as lines go and make that my To Do Project.

Electrical- What I need to get them up and running...might have my guy get into a bit of the house circuits too. Depends on timeline and resources.

[bob lico]

#############1111111111 item is to take out REAR oil drain plug and buy brass adapter to COAST GUARD blue hose (FC-332 250PSI) and bring the hose up to rear motor mount area.use brass male hose bib adapter (like garden hose) with screw on cap .you cannot install this once engine is install. change oil with a suit on!!! I have oil filter relocation kit for starboard engine so both oil filters face the inside. starboard side fuel filter uses same bracket mounted on boat holes adjacent to oil filter. change oil filters and fuel filters with a suit on.

[coolair]

i don't know why you cant see the other picture. I tried again.

I talked to the owner today, I just got a odd vibe, things just weren't adding up. He didn't know that the transmissions were not in the boat, but bolted up to the engines. If the engines and trans have been shrink wrapped for 2 years, does that mean he has not seen them or the boat in 2 years?? Then he mentions how he took the phaser generator to a dealer, they then lost it, but never bothered to try and make them find it so he could pick it up. Then he kinda go pushy and says he didn't have time to wait around and needed an answer quickly. I am thinking these things have been sitting for 2+ years and now your in a hurry???
Then to top it off he tells me the guy at the boat yard wants 10% of the sell price for storing the boat and engines. Maybe they all tried to pull an insurance scam and something backfired, this guy is just a goof ball with more money than sense, or maybe way to busy to realize the guys at the boat yard have been screwing him. Like I said, just doesnt add up.
As of now I am moving along past this bargain.

I think the morals of the story are sometimes things are too good to be true, the deals always come along at the most inopportune times and there will always be another deal.

As far as the RH motor. I read a post on the 460ford forum that was pretty comical when the car guys started talking about the marine engines. In an attempt to be different Ford made these engines run in reverse with a different camshaft, reverse cut distributor gear, the reverse starter, different firing order and different end seals. Making them normal wouldn't be hard. Watching them try and find a 9 bolt(normal engines are 11) water pump gasket would be fun too. The guys at the auto parts wouldn't know what to do.

And obviously by reading what you and Bob just posted there really is alot more planning that needs to be done when it comes to prop size and shaft angle.

[Yannis]

Bob,

Could you please post a pic of this invention?

[bob lico]

Yannis, somewhere back in time I did a complete article on the subject. my son and i go to the marina dressed in a tuxedo and change engine oil and transmission oil in my 31 Bertram .I even included a photograph. IF you installed your engines with front of the engine up there is a bulge at the rear of oil pan that was designed to collect all the bad stuff so you remove that oil plug and install a SAE by 1/2" pipe thread and about two foot of CC blue hose with a hose bib adapter and cap on it. Simply remove cap, connect to 12 -volt oil pump mounted on 5 gallon pail and turn on until pump empties pan. brake loose oil spin -off filter and drop in freezer zip bag.-------done Wearing an tuxedo is used to insult the no it alls on the dock!!!

[Carl]

#############1111111111 item is to take out REAR oil drain plug and buy brass adapter to COAST GUARD blue hose (FC-332 250PSI) and bring the hose up to rear motor mount area.use brass male hose bib adapter (like garden hose) with screw on cap .you cannot install this once engine is install. change oil with a suit on!!! I have oil filter relocation kit for starboard engine so both oil filters face the inside. starboard side fuel filter uses same bracket mounted on boat holes adjacent to oil filter. change oil filters and fuel filters with a suit on.

Yes that is in my Must Do list.
I was calling it a remote drain, but yes I want to pull all the oil out quickly each time I change and not have to deal with sticking a small tube down the dipstick to pull a pail of oil out.
Good to know the exact hose that should be used, thanks.
Just use a regular jabsco type pump to drain?

I was thinking of the remote oil filter...but leaning away from that as I will have the outboard side of motors open for access. No genset for me and I rarely change my oil in a suit...but when I do, its usually a bathing suit. But if tight or tough to get access, that I can do after.
I did the remote filter on my 440's...used to be a horror to change. Brackets, hoses and stuff in the way...one hand to spin off hot filter, other hand supported filter from underneath, then the other hand I'd wedge in from top, stick my finger in hole and finagle and up and out. And if it dropped what a mess.

i don't know why you cant see the other picture. I tried again.

Ah ha, I see you got your motor to run on Miller Lite!

Taste great and less filling!

Only down side to having a tank full of Miller Lite is running out of fuel when guys get thirsty on those hot days...

Motor looks good, my custom motor stand looks very similar.



If the deal does not feel right...take a pass.

If your not sure your going to use the boat enough to warrant diesel at this time, take a pass. Gas is a great match for the 31 for certain type of use. My first 5 years with boat diesel would have paid, the last 19 years diesels would have been a waste. I don't think they make sense if 95% of my use is within a 10 minute run from dock with the balance maybe 30-40 minutes. Yes i could be out for hours...but trolling or bottom fishing.

Then again...the owner, I think you said got his insurance money. He's happy, might have had plans to slap it back together to use or sell...but not too motivated as he has a boat, doesn't want to work on a project, didn't think about yard bills adding up...that is till they start calling for their money. Now that the pocket is being hit...a flame gets lit.

In my 24 or 25 years with the boat I have gotten all excited with many Diesel deals that came up.
Some seemed good, some really good...one was too good to be true that sounded very fishy so I passed on it, then my dad jumped on it.
Turns out it pays to be at the right place at the right time with money in hand. It was a too good to be true deal that turned out to be a really really great deal.

[bob lico]

Harbor Freight sells a inexpensive 12-volt pump with male hose Bib for in and out. just a two foot piece of garden hose with female end that will sit on top of 5 gallon bucket with hose in bucket ,for intake four foot piece of garden hose with double female ends and this will go onto the male bib end of the short hose from oil pan drain plug just tie wrap this short hose to rear motor mount and cut tie to use. I use to walk down dock area and usually was attacked by boat owners looking to DIY. on there boats every time i witness a boater changing his oil thru dip stick i would comment DON`T BOTHER LEAVE THE OLD OIL IN MOTOR and walk away. dip stick oil removal has to be the dumbest thing you can ever do to your engines especially Cummins.

[Carl]

I don't know about leaving the oil in the engine...I've been pumping it out with my little motorized dip stick siphoning doo-hicky for many moons. With 30 years of running on the rebuilds...I say it must work just fine. I pull 7 out of 7 quarts from each. My only grievance is its slow and sometimes you have to play with the tube to hit the right position to pull it all out. Once in awhile I get it on the 1st shot, other times its fiddle fiddle fiddle. Add to that the fresh oil looks fresh for awhile after I change...so its pulling it out.
Of course not pulling out anything thats laying on the bottom that is not directly in front of tube...but oil is formulated to hold particles...so a good warm up is needed first.