Yellow giving banners, and the importance of fundraising

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Mar 5th, '14, 07:35

Hi all,

Patrick had a great idea to place an indicator for your year's giving, and for me it serves as a super reminder that I either need to, or I need to again. We would not have this resource, this forum, this sandbox as one of our own has called it for years, without Patrick's efforts and quite frankly work on our behalf.

I have benefitted from his knowledge and generosity over the years in immeasurable ways. That is only one of the reasons I give.

So I'll be blunt. If you don't have a yellow 2014 under your name, write the man a check and mail it to him in Llano. Minimum of $100. There should be no one who shows up on the board without a yellow banner under your name, unless you just joined. Yes, its voluntary, but man up and do the right thing. (or woman up if you are female!)

Especially if you are getting advice and input from him on how to work on your boat here.

Sound good? I thought so! :)

Thank you,

Dug

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 5th, '14, 08:40

YES!!!

I see quite a few threads started with "I've got a question for Capt Patrick..." Detailed explanations with no donation banner...

Hope you all consider a donation...

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mar 5th, '14, 11:43

Dug, I agreee that we all need to support the site, however I am concerned that putting too much pressure on people to give will create a forum where people who have not given money no longer post at all. For whatever reason, lack of time, organization or funds, some people can't get around to giving, yet they contribute by giving good advice, by posting a humourous comment or by asking a really good question that we all can benefit from.

I would hate to see the "donated" banner result in a diminishment in the openness or quality of the sandbox that we all play in. If you have a banner under your name great, but if you don't, I am sure that you have your reasons and I respect that too.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 5th, '14, 11:48

If you have a banner under your name great, but if you don't, I am sure that you have your reasons and I respect that too.

Exactly!

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Mar 5th, '14, 12:06

Considering that I donated in late 2013 I think I have a suggestion that might work... Whether it's feasible with the platform this forum runs on is another question... Instead of doing a flag stating the year the donation was made in why not just show a flag stating "donor" or some such if a donation was made in the preceding 12 months... When you lose your donor flag you know it's time to make a donation (if that's what you want to do)...

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 5th, '14, 12:28

Nav,

Thought about that too, but it involved not only manually updating a name by adding or replacing a flag when necessary, but also keeping tabs on every Donor Group member and removing both the flag and member from the Donor Group. I will probably prune the Group and flags on a bi-annual basis. So after 2 years of donor inactivity, a member would revert back to the "Standing Memeber" or "Senior Member" status. The only automatic function available is a rank system based on number of posts...

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 5th, '14, 13:04

Dug wrote:So I'll be blunt. If you don't have a yellow 2014 under your name, write the man a check and mail it to him in Llano. Minimum of $100. There should be no one who shows up on the board without a yellow banner under your name, unless you just joined.

Some folks prefer anonymity, so a rush to judgement is generally uncalled for.

Seeing as how this site (like most well trafficked sites) is scanned by bots 24/7, advertising that you are someone with extra cash to throw around is an invitation to outside requests for donations.

And of course there are some folks who are just too damned mean to be expected to give.........

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 5th, '14, 13:12

And of course there are some folks who are just too damned mean to be expected to give.........

ROFLMAO!!!

neil · Post by **neil** » Mar 5th, '14, 13:30

capt pat,dont forget to give yourself a yellow star or two

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 5th, '14, 21:54

Some folks prefer anonymity, so a rush to judgement is generally uncalled for.

Seeing as how this site (like most well trafficked sites) is scanned by bots 24/7, advertising that you are someone with extra cash to throw around is an invitation to outside requests for donations.

And of course there are some folks who are just too damned mean to be expected to give.........

Some are just afraid their wives will want to know where the extra cash came from.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 6th, '14, 07:41

Allow me a comment; when I first saw this golden/yellow banner with the stars etc, I thought someone got married. Then I saw more people get married! So, for one, it probably works for the site. On the other hand one might NOT want to advertise their donor ship, WITHOUT having to stand out as the poor of the family, or the graceless one.
One more thing. If I were to contribute anything in cash I would necessarily have to have an IBAN bank acct number so as to make a transfer. No checks in Euros from 10000 miles away possible yet.
For me, what has been said already, a "donor" claim should be enough for those who understand and respect the site. For the others, all the colors of the sky wouldn't change a thing...
Yannis.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 6th, '14, 08:11

Come on guys you can't pull one of our toys out of a dumpster for $10,000 and many are into a project for 6 figures. Pony up, if you want to stay anonymous no problem otherwise get on it.

If you are outside the US send me a paypal. I will get it to capt Pat for you.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Mar 7th, '14, 11:34

When I consider all the advice and hands-on help I have received over the years (the vast majority being most valuable), and the advice I have received from the yard for which I paid good $$$ and had to disregard or redo I will always be indebted to Pat, Vic, Mean Mike, Bruce and the rest of you who have given so generously of time and talent. If any of you wish anonymity I will bet Pat will leave you sans stars. This has always been and I hope will always be a free board. We give because we love our sandbox not because we are being pressured. Vic would look you in the eye and say, "I hope you can." And he meant it. I hope all of you can and will, but if not you are still welcome.
Thanks, Faithful

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 7th, '14, 11:46

To address the possible Bot Scanning concern that MikeO mentioned above, I've modified the donor designation by dropping the "Site Donor" wording to just a simple ***20XX*** description...

It should also alleviate some of perceived "guilt" feelings by not having a graphic under a username.

Please, Please remember that ALL donations of any type are strictly voluntary and should not have any stigma assigned to a member who does not carry the banner graphic!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Mar 7th, '14, 12:00

No stigma, for sure. Reminder? Yes.

All I am saying, and it has been repeated by others is that almost without fail, we can all afford to support and enable something of value in our lives. In fact, we all do it in many aspects of our lives.

The right thing to do is the right thing to do, and that is to support our sandbox. I hope you can. Yes, I said it. I am no UV, and never will be. But for a man who I would not have ever met if it were not for this place in the world, he has left a huge impression. So please. I hope you can.

Dug

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 7th, '14, 13:23

Captain, so now 2014 appears twice ?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 7th, '14, 13:32

Yannis,

Yes, but the ***20XX*** is text and could be scanned by a bot, and the graphic can not be scanned by a bot.

It's only redundant to a human eye...

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Mar 7th, '14, 13:40

I think the donor banners are an unfortunate decision.

The Faithful that have always supported this site financially will continue to do so regardless of banners. However, I fear the banners will have the unintended consequence of stratifying the membership. Every time you post, you're now either a donor or not; you're black or you're white...inside or out. It will change whether people feel welcome here or not and that changes the culture here no matter how much we hope it won't.

The first time a "non-donor" posts a question and doesn't get a response, they're going to wonder if the lack of response has to do with their donor status and question whether they are welcome here. Flip that around and ask what the feeling will be when a donor asks a question and doesn't get an answer with the breadth they were hoping for or from the person they were hoping to hear from. What heightened sense of entitlement does someone think they're buying with their "donor" banner?

There are people on this website whose opinions and expertise I appreciate and respect who right now as we speak are having health issues, financial issues, and other issues that make it difficult for them to donate. If just one of those people becomes more scarce here because they feel awkward about not having a "donor" banner, we all have lost. That would be a tragedy in my opinion.

It is the sense of fraternity we all share as Bertram 31 owners (past and present) that has created the bond here, not whether someone has donated or not.

In closing, let me be perfectly transparent about something. I donated regularly from 2003 - 2009, at some point I even set up regular quarterly payments through my bill pay system with my bank. In 2009, my now ex-wife attempted to use some of my posts on this site to claim a conversion of community funds to my private property - Shambala. My scarcity and lack of donations from 2009 to early 2011 had to do with the fact that I was fighting a bitter and expensive divorce with a woman who wanted nothing more than to ensure I didn't own a Bertram 31 at the conclusion of our divorce. In May, 2011, doctors discovered a tumor inside my spinal cord. I had a complicated surgery in October of that year to remove it and wasn't able to work for several months afterward. I was scared to death about my financial security at that point in my life and lived as minimalist a lifestyle as I could. My only reason for bringing that up is to remind everyone that there is an ebb and flow to each of our lives. There are external factors that impact us.

I shudder at the notion that we may destroy the fraternity on this site by forcing people to reveal donor status without understanding their circumstances. I remain committed to this website, its future, and the wonderful friendships I have here, but will never ask to have a "donor" banner placed under my name. I don't ever want to be guilty of saying "no stigma" after admitting the purpose of the donor banner is to "remind" others to donate while making the assumption they can afford to donate.

I think an annual post requesting donations coupled with an email blast to the membership is a much better way to ensure donations and maintain the culture of the site.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 7th, '14, 14:26

John,

Valid points and taken into consideration! This whole exercise is not set in stone and I may very well dump it in favor of another way to generate site donations. The one thing that I have a very hard psychological time with is when I personally have to "stump for donations". It just goes against my grain to "plead" for anything. I'm very independent and since virtual retirement and now making ends meet primarily with social security and site donations, I'm having difficulty in adjusting.

Sometimes I think it might be better, (selfishly for me), to close the bulletin board, dispense with the need to pay for site security, (without the forum, there's nothing else about bertram31.com that needs hacking protection or daily monitoring), get a part time job at the local hardware store, and put more bucks in my pocket and time on my docket as an end result.

But that's not something I want to do, just something that makes better economical logic.

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Mar 7th, '14, 15:08

Patrick,

I think most people here feel an incredible debt of gratitude to you personally, and to this site for the resources and friendship you both provide. Most of us would give you the shirts off our backs if we knew there was a need. Don't be hesitant to ask for donations. I would think if we all knew there was an annual fundraising event for the site at the same time each year with a dollar goal that we could work toward, the response would be more than expected.

Without question, this site is largely the reason why the final chapter has not been written on the Bertram 31. This website is responsible for keeping the Bertram 31 current and relevant in today's boating community. Every time someone comments on Shambala at the marina, it is a reflection of what this site has done for a 36 year-old boat. It's one thing to acknowledge the resources here, but there is more to this site than just the resources. There is a culture and camaraderie here with the members on this site that transcends all socio-economic, political, and even national boundaries. It is a very unique place where the common denominator is the love of a boat.

No one wants this site to be a burden on you financially. We'll all do our part to raise the money to keep things going. My hope is we can find a way to do so that continues to make everyone feel welcome.

Thanks for all you do.

John Vietor

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 7th, '14, 15:29

No one wants this site to be a burden on you financially. We'll all do our part to raise the money to keep things going. My hope is we can find a way to do so that continues to make everyone feel welcome.

Thanks John, working on it!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Mar 7th, '14, 15:37

Everyone is welcome. No doubt that has always been the case.

Give if you can has always been the way its been. In the 13 plus years that this site has been live, Patrick has never been willing to ask for money, but he's always been willing to help.

there are pseudo fundraising efforts offline, in the form of many of the rendezvous'.

The rest has already been said. Circumstances to change, ebb and flow. John, My personal hope is you are back on your feet.

As for the banners, you can't please all the people all the time. If nothing else, the effect I am seeing is that it re-expresses the value of this website, and the absolute importance and value to Patrick for having our population make it easier for him to continue to enable this site to be here.

And that is perhaps the most important thing of all. So, am I pushing this one hard? Yes. Yes I am.

I hope you can.

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Mar 8th, '14, 04:21

wow, what a mine field, I for one never saw the complexities around this issue, I have contributed in the past, but not recently and have felt the prick of being a non bannered user, so much so it motivated me to email capt for the acct details, so on one hand mission accomplished and if we want this site it has to be financially supported, but on the other hand I`d hate to see this site become ,well, like some other sites where there is an element of bitterness that brings the whole thing down, without any doubt this community is one of the nicest, most helpful I have ever come across , and without it my B42 project would have stalled for sure, all that said how do we do this and accommodate the ebb and flow of life, It would seem in this case, I am the case in point, My project runs 6 figures, and yet it took some external motivation to get me off my ass to do the right thing, shame on ME!!, should capts life ebb and flow because of me, I think not!!, But how do we make others feel welcome when they can not afford it?, this is where I feel Dugs comment "everyone should have one" comes a little unstuck, and taken in isolation it could make people feel unwelcome, It would be nice if were seen as a badge of honour to have one ,not an embarrassment to not have one, but in the real world, as in my own case, IT was the push I needed, complex issue!!! I for one do not have the answers, but for our own benefit we have to find a balance that allows capt to continue his work, and if it means some of us have to be a "THEM" rather than an "US" for the sake of the sites survival, well then the banners should stay, Most importantly, this should be brought to a timely end, as I'm sure it should not be allowed to add more pressure to capts life given he does all this out of his own generosity
Ps Capt I received the details and the money will be sent this coming Monday
Yours ever so gratefully
Todd

Russ Pagels · Post by **Russ Pagels** » Mar 8th, '14, 09:25

To be polite those that can will and those that can't or won't, will not. That is the way of life. I have been on the site for a for a some time, but just ask a lot of questions, to which I get a lot of very good answers. If you own a Bertram of any size or for that mater any boat this forum the best source of information. I'm some what lucky in the fact I can still swing a wrench. So the information I get here is vital. If things get to complex I do have a mechanic, that after all these years of working with him he will tell me what to do, rather than making a visit. Did I mention that he get $80 an hour. just think how much money this site has saved all of us. Now I'm finished. give what you can. and if we could sent up one or to times a year for donations I think this may help...Russ

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Mar 8th, '14, 10:32

I think the Standing/Senior Member designation worked pretty well, save the fact that subsidizing the site fell short. Those that gave knew who they were and those that didn't knew no different and I for one never felt any ill or condescending will toward either. With UV not beating the drum I had often though of starting a thread but i sort of feel like a sophomore around here and that it wasn't my place. Never the less, amazing group and we should do whatever needs doing to help drive cash flow. I like Russ's idea of yearly/bi-yearly fundraisers.

If it cuts across grain with Pat maybe Mike could say something profound like, "Give or i'll be over..........."

I'll go lay by my dish now.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 8th, '14, 10:47

MarkS wrote: "Give or i'll be over..........."

That might work if I was the size of Doug Crowther, but in my case it would be more appropriate for me to simply remind people of the old adage that while you never hear the shot that kills you……you definitely hear the one that leaves you crippled.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Mar 8th, '14, 13:30

Having spent about an hour typing a long response and then losing it somehow in digital never-never land I will post below a much abridged summary of my feelings on the matter...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that very few of us knows how much money or time it takes to maintain this site.. so we can't speak in anything but generalities, and we can't appreciate how much our personal contributions effect the overall cost.

I fear any display or indication of someone's financial support (or lack of it by omission) for this site will have negative effects. I believe we are all understanding that some degree of financial support is necessary keep this site online, and human nature will, by posting any indication of someone's financial contribution, lead to some degree of "elitism".. (This is not the best word to describe what I mean, but it is close).

My thoughts go more in the line of what Uncle Vic did on occasion, that being he would post a note reminding all of us that it was time again to consider donations to the site, and I suspect his reminders resulted in all the regulars here making contributions. I have absolutely no problem with someone posting such reminders 2 or 3 times a year, or more if it is necessary.

It is chilling to think, as someone posted above, that responses to someone's request might lead to less information being offered because they did not have an indication that their financial support was up to date.

Each of us has his own financial situation, but as also said above.. we all do support a rather expensive hobby, and all of us should be reminded on occasion that a financial contribution to this site should be part of what we spend to enjoy our hobby to the fullest.

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Mar 8th, '14, 15:03

can everyone please have a look at the membership section at www. Boatdiesel.com , I think that a version of this would suit everyone ,its well balanced, clear ,upfront, affordable, and guaranties a steady income stream for the site ,its self controlling as well in that ,if you want do anything other than just have a read, you have to contribute a minimum amount of fifty bucks,(might need to be more like 75-100 for our size) cheap but it guaranties an income with out being unaffordable, I have paid 2 or 3 times over the years just to be able to ask a question or two and not minded a bit, also having a commercial section is a great idea, where those in the industry can promote themselves openly, I hope that this is a formula everyone can agree on,have a look at the site traffic,very high,and its been around a long time, its a long term success ,which is what we are trying to achieve

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 8th, '14, 16:38

Tony's site does have a sophisticaded membership structure and it seems to be functioning fine for him.

There are few differences between our sites though...

1 the VBulletin software that Tony uses is $300 initially and an annual use/support fee. The phpBB software I run is open source and free. I need very little outside support to administer it, and over the past 5 years, what I couldn't square away on my own has only cost around $100.

2. While there are a few sections of Tony's board that can be accessed as a guest, by and large it's a paid membership access. Tony runs the site as an extension of his Seaboard Marine business which deals with all facets of the marine industry and he has the manpower, staff, and revenue income to pay for deductible expenses. You can bet that Tony doesn't handle his website himself. He deals with customers and members via, phone, email, and in person, leaving the IT technical stuff to others.

I, on the other hand, am a one man show, semi-retired, dealing with, (on a production level), only one model of boat from one manufacturer, that has been out of production for almost 30 years. Tony's customer base is large, diverse, and could cover mine with one finger nail. It'd be like comparing a fancy big city restaurant to a little town mom and pop cafe...

3. One of the things that was agreed upon in the beginning, (Vic,Mike, Tom, Andre, and a few others of the first 20 or so members), was that we wanted the site to remain free and open to all, including anonymous guests, without advertisement, without dues or fees. Just donations from those who could and would do so... And it worked well until the spammers invaded the old Matt's Script bulletin board, and until I was forced to seek out a better web host, with higher stability & stronger technical support that didn't quit work at 5:00pm & take weekends off. It worked well until the hackers and bots started attacking. Enter SiteLock at $600 a year... The list goes on, as does the cost of living.

4. Our membership is only 1100 members, the majority of whom are inactive and many who have probably drifted off and haven't even visited in years. Tony has a membership of 214,708. Over 195 times our membership.

If we went to a paid membership, supported only by active members there would be no way it could be done at the $25 or $50 level. And I don't have things like prop calculators to entice a higher membership fee.

There's one thing that we have that Tony doesn't. A family build around the Classic Bertrams... But it's a small, finite market that only encompasses about 3,000 boats, over half of which are B31's.

We are more of a club than an industry. And donations are by and large non taxable. I don't write off the website expenses, only expenses that are incurred for the few products I make or have made for me. And that's only the oversized rudders. An annual membership fee would imply a paid service for a set price, and thereby taxable.

Before I would turn this website into a "for profit" business, I'd shut it down. If somebody wanted to run it that way, I'm sure I could work up a purchase price...

But that's just not what I want to do.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mar 8th, '14, 19:34

I have been thinking about this a bit and I had an idea that I would like to float out.

How about we set a target, fundraise like hell until the target is met, the donor banner shows up as donations come in, then, when the target is met, the banner graphic changes and we all - as a community - get a bertram eagle saying the group has met the 2014 target AS A GROUP. Fundraising should kick off every January - Pat should set the target ($10,000 ?? $20,000?) That way we preserve the brotherhood feel and the "I'll send a part for a donation" counts to the group goal.

Whaddya think? Too touchy feely for the mean team? It's kind of a Canadian solution, but don't hold that against me because, well, I'm Canadian....

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 8th, '14, 19:55

Rod,

Some good ideas and I'll keep them in mind over the next week or so. I will come up with something that tries to satisfy the whole family... Working on several ideas in the backgound here.

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Mar 8th, '14, 20:19

Rocket,

Obviously it's Capt. Patrick's decision. However, I like your idea of having a fundraising goal/gauge that would be on whatever page so that everyone sees it when they get online and it shows the progress toward whatever the goal is to keep this from being a burden on Capt. Patrick. That way everyone knows where we are versus what Capt. Patrick needs and people can give based on their circumstance at any time of the year. If someone is having a rough 1st quarter because they're in the NE and their heating bill tripled, maybe their circumstance changes by the 2nd or 3rd quarter and they can contribute. They still get to feel like they have made a meaningful contribution toward the common goal without feeling awkward about not being able to give at a specific point in time. Those who are doing well may be inclined to give more than once or twice a year if we are reminded of the collective goal that keeps the website afloat.

Your idea preserves the culture of equality of membership here.

I also think your idea is better then the annual or bi-annual fundraiser because it allows us all to see where we are throughout the year without putting any pressure on Capt. Patrick to "ask" for donations.

That's my $.02. Thanks for posting that idea.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Mar 8th, '14, 22:57

As an outsider, I will respectfully throw in my two cents.

I really think the banners are great idea as long as there is not dollar amount connected to it.

As previously stated, money can be tight for some people. It is more the thought, concept and showing of respect to send in $1, $5, $10 or anything above that. In my humble opinion if someone sends in $1 single dollar with a note of thanks attached that deserves the banner as well. It is the thought and appreciation of the site. Anyone that visits this site can afford $1 single dollar and a stamp. The thought and consideration means more in my opinion and hence why I think the banners should stay.

I have been a donor in the past (for relatively small amounts). I am a private person so it is just a piece a paper with my screen name, that words thank you and cash. I will do the same again.

I have never felt like I was one of the faithful since I owned a 25ft Bertram and an outboard to boot but I do read the forum regularly.

I really think the banners are great idea as long as there is not dollar amount connected to it. In my humble opinion if someone sends in a single dollar $1.00 with a note of thanks attached that deserves the banner as well. It is the thought and appreciation of the site more then the money since some people are in different places financially. This will allow everyone to have the banner with no judgement and their is no excuse for not being able to send in a note with $1 dollar. It is the thought and much better then sending nothing.

Just my 2 cents

Thank you for the site.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mar 8th, '14, 23:15

I would second that idea of a gauge. If it could be made into the home page of the forum so you see it as a reminder. A gauge like a blood drive so we know how we are doing as a family through out the year. Then we can do the usual pitch in reminder post to stimulate things as needed. I for one lose track of time but know that we need to support it when we can. Most everything I know about making improvements on boats came from this site. Not sure how my boat would look if I did not have this knowledge pool to swim in. Actually it would look like s%#t and would have been sold a long time ago without the site. I support whatever Capt. Pat decides. Seven years for me and this is the only site that I still come to for laughs, good times and answers that I can count on. Though I have not met most of you I think of you as family. Close down the site and things would suck. Just sayin'.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 8th, '14, 23:38

captbone wrote:As an outsider.....

Capt,

You are every bit as much of the Faithful as anyone else here! Don't ever think of yourself as an outsider...

This a family, and families have big brothers, little brothers, sisters, nephews, cousins, and neighbors who are considered as part of the family. Hell, even Thuddddd and his Hatteras Plant Pot with the wisteria growing up through the hull where he forgot to close the garbord drain is a valued neighbor and who's part of this family. We miss him between his infrequent visits. We've got several folks as members who don't own a boat at all, but they're still part of our family, in a neighborly way.

So stop pouting about only owning a B25 OB little brother! There's several B25 owners here that are anything other than embarrassed or shy about being here.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 8th, '14, 23:47

I have been sitting on the side lines watching. But I think all of the ideas are great. Before I start, Capt. Bone, 25, 28 or 31 you are still part of the family. So stay aboard, we need everyone. Heck we have had Blackfin and Hat guys hang out here.

The Capt. is right the membership has been slowly shrinking. Hey look none of us are getting any younger. So yes this site will go away one day. But in the mean time, lets keep it a float. We have seen some new blood join our ranks in the last few years, lets not chase them away.

I don't know how many donations I have made over the years, I know I have missed years. But I do try and kick myself to take the time to do it.

We need to not be intimidating to each other. I saw one post say come on donate $100. As has been said, not everyone can do that every year. I think all of us should refrain from arm twisting or chasing members away.

People need to donate what they can. I agree a goal is helpful so that we know just what is needed. There are other ways also. A member needs some thing, another member has it. We all say, make a site donation. Well that money would go to the goal amount during the year. But the question I ask, is that Money making it's way to Capt. Pat?

We have the buy and sell page. Maybe when we sell some thing through that page we should think about sending some thing to the Capt. Even if it is $25. Hey four of these gets us to $100. If we do this we may have paid for some thing to keep this going.

Let people give what they can, no one should not feel welcome here, and a goal amount would be helpful. I can go either way with the banners, but if no banners keeps peace in our family, then I would say eliminate the banners.

We are not big enough for paid advertising, plus it is kind of nice not having it.

Search around the other boards guys. Ask a question, you get one good answer and then a lot of grief about aksing a stupid question. It does not happen here. Plus, hey, if this site dies, then there sill not be anyone out there to reach to when you need help. I have seen people reach out and help members that they have never met. That takes a special group to do that.

Lets all think about how we solve this issue so we can keep the place going. That is all I have to say for now.

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Mar 9th, '14, 01:18

Perhaps owning the domain 'Classic Bertram.com', and redirecting the traffic to this site might help grow the numbers, also some of the suppliers out there get a pretty fair deal out of the site,ie classtech,hightide etc, may be they should be helping out a little?

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Mar 9th, '14, 08:54

I know everybody hates them but the ads on every freeking site out there do subsidize some of the pain!

A gauge with green on top yellow in the middle and red (house is on fire) that ebbs and flows as needed will give all a feeling of Pats status.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 9th, '14, 11:04

Nobody asked so far, and I'm a bit embarrassed to do it myself as a newbie, a non 31er, a foreigner etc, but, what if someone gave us an indication of what this site burns up in a year? i.e. all costs PLUS a fair pillow for the capt (and all other admins) to operate. Also an indication of how many active members the site attracts.
A couple of divisions and multiplications later we will know what our ethical commitment per head is. I bet you there will be no need for banners or anything else to meet that target. And ,please, a hyena is as respectable an animal as any other in the kingdom !!
Yannis.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Mar 9th, '14, 11:27

I do want to be clear, all I am trying to do is prod those who might be on the edge of giving to Patrick to do so. The money, while so challenging for him to accept, is highly beneficial and if I will, needed.

i agree that no $$$ should be tagged to the banner. Its not about how much. Its about participation. Up to you Pat on the rest.

Its not a guilt thing. If you feel it is, well, hmmm... And my post was DEFINITELY not to guilt anyone into anything or make tempers flare, (though I seem to do that so well without trying in various places in the world). It was to point out the value of shooting Pat some $$ and the importance of doing so.

All are welcome here. All should be. Its an awesome community. That, is what its all about.

luis · Post by **luis** » Mar 9th, '14, 16:45

Before this new forum type I start reading and asking things on the old board about the V8 Cummins I have on my B31 and always get answers from Bruce and other people. When this new board start with the actual format I registered and start reading and asking things as I am "rebuilding" my Bertram. I work for a japanese company doing some robotics software routines and stuff and since November 2012 that I stay home doing small reports that really on payment are short. However, beeing a guy that miss some annual contribuitions I really don't care if I have a banner or not because I know almost all the members in this familly, (not in person but sometimes is like I know them all my life), and I know that if I ask something and have a delay on the answer is only because the right person with the right idea didnt read it yet. Not as something to compare but is like when my dog opens the mouth with a fearless face and I put my hand on his mouth because I know her so well. One day I was already with more wine then usual and reading the board I saw the phone nr of Rawleigh and I just pick my mobile call him just to say allo... the wine was good. Or when I ask a drawing for engine supports and I receive by mail the wood jigs from Bob H.
Gonna try to send some contribuition this year as well as I gonna try to almost finish my rebuild but in the end , with banner or without banner , I'll keep coming here sometimes only to read and sometimes to ask questions. I trust this familly and I never saw another site that enlights so well the DIY on your boat so well and with so many technical details beeing different in many ways but also on this almost unique way avoiding the " pay a fee if you wanna come in". Sometimes I have , sometimes I dont have.
Cheers Capt Pat
All the best to all
(And yes but only a litle at dinner (answer for if I already have some wine)