Head question

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Apr 20th, '13, 09:37

Finally getting around to adding an official head. Tired of my Bride's rage over the five-gallon mud bucket with a trash bag and kitty litter. Question is: can I use the old fiberglass water tank as a holding tank? Not going to use it for potable water as it makes the water taste funky and since this is not an over-night multi-couple cruiser I only need a limited amount of drinking water and thought the tank which is already there would make a perfect receptacle.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Apr 20th, '13, 10:32

I guess you could, but you'd need a vent and a pump-out fitting.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Apr 20th, '13, 12:34

Mikey,
I have a 31 Express also, I put in a 10 gallon holding tank under the cabin sole nearest the head compartment, it's a short run for hoses( head discharge, vent line and pump out) My boat had a 18 gallon poly plastic water tank that was between the engines under the step down hatch. When I redid the head and water systems they both went under the cabin floor hatches, 25 gallon poly water tank in the forward hatch closest to the V berth with a 3.5 gpm Jabsco pump. The poly plastic holding tank is under the cabin sole near cabin door entrance. Depending on the condition of the old water tank I wouldn't use it for anything but water and trying to retro fit it, It can be a major problem, adding the correct size discharge and intake fittings into an old polyester tank and the lenght of the hose runs.
I suggest Galley Maid electric head with it's built-in macerator pump( Stainless steel blades) 3/4" sea water intake 1-1/2" discharge line into holding tank with a Y valve, Galley Maid has a plastic shield that covers around the entire bottom of the bowl, covers yup all the hose fittings and mounting hardware . I have never had it clog up. The galley Maid is made in Riveira Beach uses quality castings and china bowl. Not cheap but it will last forever and it is easy to repair. Good luck with your project.
Pete Falon

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Apr 22nd, '13, 09:08

Pete,
Thanks for the reply. Here's my layout. The original water tank in question is just inside the cabin door under the cabin sole with plenty of access and it is less than three feet from the head location. The forward part of my cabin sole is the battery box. I have Cabrera floors so plenty of access. Note the Rejex, thanks UV.

If I were to add a tank I would probably put it below the floor just outside of the cabin door. This is about a foot or so further than the original water tank. The other alternative is to cutout the original tank and replace it with a holding tank but this seems like added work. My only concern about using the original tank was whether it might bleed odor.
Thoughts, guys?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Apr 22nd, '13, 11:58

I added a holding tank OUTSIDE the cabin under the caompanionway space between the motors. Easy everything, and it was outside the cabin in case there was any stench. Plastic holding tanks are cheap.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Apr 23rd, '13, 00:19

Mikey,
Your area of cruising is in the Cheasapeake Bay correct? They must ahve very stringent discharge of waste zones , so I would put in the largest size poly plastic tank that will fit under the floor hatches either inside or outside the cabin area. You don't want to be pumping out the head holding tank every 4 or 5 days with a small tank. Have you got any room in the starboard engine box outboard of the engine, it's a short run for hoses in that area and close to the actual head, the closer to the tank the easier it is for the head to pump itself into the tank. The old water tank more than likely not bleed smells but to add a clean out, pump out and vent fittings are going to be a bunch of work, the poly tanks have all the fittings already on the tank and are fairly cheap. Good luck.
Pete Fallon

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Apr 23rd, '13, 16:27

speaking of heads, that reminds me i need a new one
mine craped out before sandy

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 23rd, '13, 18:01

Rule # 1 never eat where you shit! Never,never put a holding tank in the cabin you sleep and eat! Ok now that we are on the same wave length look at the Todd catalog they make a tall narrow 17 gallon tank .you make a little stand adjacent to starboard motor , tank is same width as gunwale so it will fit in every 31 regardless of engines. A short 16" of hose to a gunwale clean out fitting and a very short run to tank thru bulkhead. I use fresh water for my Jabco porcelain head there is absolutely never any odor. Short run from fresh water tank with bronze one way valve off tee . Head has it own isolated pump,mercerator . Vent holding tank correctly with filter and thru hull just under covering boards.main bulkhead should be totally sealed from cockpit just glass in thru pipe in bilge and two two feet up. Cabin will be fresh as a Daisey and will past full field inspection from wife,dauther ,and girl friend.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 23rd, '13, 22:16

Bob

If you have a pic, that would be great.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 07:57

Tony I a sorry if I want a little bit blunt but I started to see this post go haywire and just could not believe my eyes. Maybe I am the odd one but I ask would you put your septic tank ,cesspool in your basement or under your kitchen table? Then why the hell would you go out of your way to ruin a Bertram when the engine room location is 16" away! Make no sense at all. The Jabsco has a small small toilet control panel mounted next to toilet so if the children do a little urinating they press quick flush uses a cup of water all the way up to double full flush. The 18 gal OEM water tank is more than enough for week end with four and if a lot of dish washing they always have a dock hose to fill tank. I will photo setup today very,very simple waste goes into holding tank in a semi liquid state the self contained pump,mercerator does the trick ,use the best hose from perilli and good for a hundred years.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Apr 24th, '13, 10:36

Mikey...

A couple of years ago I discarded the old broken Lectrasan system in my B33 and installed a new head and holding tank system.. I did a writeup for the B33 forum's "Owner Tips" section, which describes the system I designed and installed. In my reading articles on this subject I ran into an old article which touches just about anything you need to know to design a well functioning system. The link to this article is below.. in was published in 1999 as I recall.. but poop is poop, other things have changed since 1999 but I believe poop then was the same as poop now. The writeup is long, and you can skip sections that don't interest you, but the info you can read is very useful.

Here is the link... http://www.marine-surveyor.com/newsletters/9910.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suggest you take a look at it before you start to lay out your system. If you need access to my system writeup just ask here and I can get a copy to you.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Apr 24th, '13, 15:00

In my update to by B28, I installed the "porta potty" type system identified in the referenced article....
"An upgraded version is the SeaLand "Marine Traveler," which is a toilet bowl atop its own 9-gallon tank which is fitted for pumpout, and uses pressurized water from the onboard system, but very little of it."

It hooks up to my pumpout on the port gunnel. Between the porta potty "tank" and the pump-out, I installed a Y-valve and have a macerator pump hooked up to a transom output through-hull fitting for being able to pump out when outside the zone.... which I rarely do.

My use is mainly coastal and the head is for wife's comfort. When fishing, we use the over the transom method. When at dock, we use land-based utilities.

Paul J.
1973 B28 - PALADIN

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 24th, '13, 16:00

I once compromised on a center console that had a head built into the console just for my wife, she never used it.

A big selling point to the wife on the Bertram was having a "bathroom" not an enclosed head as we call it. Still never uses it.

IMO it's only value is that men can't go over the transom when there are women onboard. Even more useless is having a sink in the head when the galley sink is closer then walking out of a bathroom stall to the sink.

If I had my way I'd rip the whole darn thing out and put a porta potty in the V berth. That's just me

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 19:07

peter the kids drink drink those juice boxes all day and the four of then plus the women use the head a dozen or more times a day they are not going to use fire island public toilets i would burn the damn boat before i let that happen. i use the head every time i go out with boat. enough here is the tank;

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bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 19:09

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 19:12

this is the pipe from toilet thru vacuum break then y valve .one to 11/2' thru hull for offshore and one to pump out opening in gunwale.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 19:18

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 19:23

black pipe from head is the pirelli i mention. never have to repair or replace .here is the porcelain head with the control panel next to it. the ladies cycle fills the toilet like home and total flush or someone with mexican dinner night before.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 24th, '13, 21:43

bob lico wrote:Tony I a sorry if I want a little bit blunt .

Bob

Don't worry you were not blunt. Just that the whole holding tank thing drives me crazy. I have on in hte same spot but I could only figure out how to squeeze about 9 gallons out of it, but you moved your batteries so you have the room to double the size. But I was also curious on how you ran your lines for the discharge.

9 Gallons is ok, but not great. Would have loved to have been 12 or more.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 24th, '13, 22:43

Tony my tank is 17 gal. Look at second photo short 8" white pipe comes out bottom then enters Y- valve out the top to screw off cap on covering board (photo) out bottom of y- valve to 11/2" bronze ball valve to bottom of boat and out of thru hull.black pipe is from head thru bulkhead.all pipes are very short runs .years from now if needed holding tank can be removed in 10 minutes. Not even bolted down has side and end Clete to hold in place. Porcelain head tank counter balance for gen on opposite side.allway place batteries dead center ,fresh water tank,batteries(4) fuel tank you know just like ballast in the fast sailing ships at turn of century like Cutty Sark. Deep V all weight down center from mid ships to transom all other weighty item balance from side to side.v- berth storage PDF, away lines ,rain gear.a 30 knot cruise speed takes perfect balance both for and aff and side to side the head is part of the planning.------ bow proud at all times!

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Apr 25th, '13, 10:04

Wow! Love instigating. It gets people out of the woodwork and talking. Well, guess the old water tank is out. Wish I had taken it out when the boat was a carcass. Have to rip it out by the brute-force method. Bob, love the idea of the starboard engine room. Have to contend with Capt. Pat's vent boxes if I use that space. May choose the area between the engines below the floor. Thanks, guys, I think. Back to the drawing board.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 25th, '13, 10:45

bob lico wrote:peter the kids drink drink those juice boxes all day and the four of then plus the women use the head a dozen or more times a day they are not going to use fire island public toilets i would burn the damn boat before i let that happen. i use the head every time i go out with boat. enough here is the tank;

Bob we all use our boats differently only pointing out my opinion and point of view, doesn't make it right or wrong for anyone else. I am sure if I ripped out the head and turned the boat into a SF, which is what I'd prefer to do, my wife wouldn't be happy.

Along those lines my goal over time is to reduce the amount of systems onboard; engine, bilge pumps, electronics that's it. No generator, AC/heat, fridge , microwave. I realize and appreciate those that want the comforts of a yacht, it's just not me..Keep in mind my marina doesn't have shore power and pump out stations are not all that conveniently located.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Apr 25th, '13, 17:31

Peter,
I'm with you. I have none of those listed items. If we (my bride and I) go anywhere on the Bay by Bertram we stay at a place with room service. She considers camping anywhere without room service. Dreamsicle is a day boat, the best ever built. The questions about heads that started this thread are an acquiescence to her ladyship.
And so it goes.

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Apr 25th, '13, 20:07

Tony,
Getting ready to is install a 9 gallon holding tank was looking at putting it under sink in head. I don't use the head much but wife likes it being there. Under normal use do you pump out monthly or weekly? Don't have any pump outs near by either.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 25th, '13, 21:08

Who knew owning a 31 Bertram would be such a key asset in fun for entire family.the children know they can't fool grandma ,she listen to the water running in the head sink to make sure each one of the children washes there hands after making "potty" and they must use soap or they get no treats after dinner.who would think the head would be such a important factor in owning a 31 Bertram.grandma sit on the dock at fire island keeping a eye on children while chatting with other women make her like the boat and that important in my life.this year they bought me a Keurig one cup coffee maker I can always have a fresh cup of coffee while offshore now i will build cabinetry for micro, coffee maker incorperated under windshield adjacent to galley..Incidentally I have never had a malfunction or breakdown of any type with this head and O maintenance for 8 years, come winter I put biodegradable antifreeze in water tank and run thru head and galley sink by doing so I can see any tell tale red in toilet water thus checking one way valve to toilet.i like to think the boat is a mini Yacth with every convinent of home.refrigerator always fill with a merlot,Chardonnay and beers make the numerous trips with small bass a little easier to take.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 25th, '13, 21:31

Frank

Unfortunately I still have the old head so I pump too much water when I flush. Depending on how many people you have on board and for how long impacts the length of time of course. Figure 4 guys for a day or even two not a problem. For me, I have a large source for pumping out.

The River is loaded with stations. About 5. The State marina is at the end of the River and pump out there is free. Then if we go over to the local swimming spot, they have a pump out boat that makes the rounds, you just give him a yell.

I really would like a slightly bigger tank, since if I can ever get work to leave me alone, I would really like to take the boat on trip for a couple of days with my wife. Having a larger head would give me an extra cushion, if we could not find a pump out.

The only issue I see with it under the head is if it smells or leaks.

I am looking at changing the head to one that pumps less water. Some of these Vacuflush ones only use a half gallon of water. That is 18 flushes. Should be more than enough.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 25th, '13, 21:37

Bob

Thanks. When I had my tank made up to fit in the space, remember I had the big blocks so room getting it in and out was tight at that time, now a snap, I set it up so that that the waste goes in the top and then out the top. I designed it so that it is almost completerly empty whn pumped out. Laying it on its side leaves some waste laying in the bottom.

I am going to do some battery re-arranging. Lets see if it helps. Right now I am running 5 batteries. 4 to start and one house. When these die I think I am going to two start and two house and drop one starting battery. That will give me a lot more room.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 25th, '13, 21:53

Frank the vucuflush definitely a good choice or another option you might say either a super water saving head or a larger tank. Needless to say I had to go with effientcy head because of the fresh water situation.like I said 18 gallon is way more then enough with four guys in canyon overnight but the beach seen with family washing hands you will need fresh water hose to refill tank for weekend. Tony only need 3 AGM batteries ,4 if you want double for house/.gen set. Each battery the size of car battery

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 26th, '13, 06:58

Courian counter on vanity installed

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 26th, '13, 07:02

bertram31.com

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