B31 window frames

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 2nd, '12, 09:36

Hey Guys,

I been out of pocket working in Mexico (dodging bullets I should say) and had the 31 in a holding pattern for a while but I'm ready to get it finished for spring starting now. I'm still planning on replacing the window frames and I am familiar with High Tide but one of you guys mentioned someone else making fiberglass frames and I forgot who. Anyone know who I'm talking about? Also looking to put add a fiberglass hardtop if anyone has any suggestions.

Thanks,

Bob

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Oct 2nd, '12, 09:49

Bob,

You're probably thinking of Brodus Rose, Lookout Boat Window Frames

Br,

Patrick

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 2nd, '12, 09:56

Yeah Pat, that's it. They said when I spoke with them last year they were going to start making fronts. I'll get up with them, thanks.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 2nd, '12, 10:04

Bob,

Please keep us in the loop I'm interested in heading this direction as well, I remember reading estimates of 10k for the frames not sure how acurate that is. My biggest concern is ventilation, you planning on running a Generator and AC?

Pete

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 2nd, '12, 13:40

Pete,

High Tide is $11,000 (dealer cost) for the window kit that includes fiberglass fronts, sides and plexi corner pieces. This does not include glass, you need to have that made locally because he's afraid to ship with glass installed. Brodus Rose told me last year they would be making fronts this past Jan. He's way behind but said he should definitely be in production by the first of the year. Brodus said his sides are around $900 each with real glass of your choice and he makes real glass corner pieces. Didn't have a price yet on the fronts. Neither make slider sides or flip up fronts. I'm thinking of ac in the cabin and a couple of vents to get some air into the helm, galley or else you'll bake I would think. I wish someone made flip up fronts, that would be all you need for airflow.

Bob

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 2nd, '12, 14:13

Good work, thanks! I like fresh air on the boat I'd prefer windows that open over AC...Just doesn't seem like an option unless you stick with the original windows.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 2nd, '12, 14:22

Bob,

BTW what changes have you made to the boat that she's not finished? Your boat if I'm not mistaken is the one that was for sale at Whitewater I wanted to buy but couldn't afford. She's a beauty!

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 2nd, '12, 15:20

Yeah, mines the Whitewater boat. We've done the head, cleaned up the wiring, some plumbing and little stuff. I want to do windows, rod holders, hard top with enclosure and riggers this winter. Just spoke to Brodus again. I asked him if he could possibly do side sliders. He's having a pow wow with his shop guys today and will, get back to me later. He estimates his fronts including corner pieces all done in 3/8" laminated safety glass to come in between $5-6,000. There would be an up charge from the $900 each for side sliders and he will do it If he feels there are some guys that will bite. They could also be done with the new fronts by the beginning of the year. They wouldn't be water tight but they would sure let the air flow. That's all in between $7-8,000 before any up charge for the side sliders. Better that $11,000 plus glass and there's no plexi used.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 3rd, '12, 10:05

Thanks for the additional info, sounds like a nice solution.

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 3rd, '12, 11:10

Just spoke with Brodus Rose again. He has to remake the side window frames to fit with the new corner pieces and front window so its no problem making the sides sliders. He wants input on whether or not to add PVC screens. Frames will all be 2" and either 2 or 3 track depending. My screens all end up in the garage so I would opt not. He said everything can still be available by first of the year. Any opinions?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Oct 3rd, '12, 11:23

He wants input on whether or not to add PVC screens

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 3rd, '12, 12:53

I told him I needed screens like I needed a 3rd nut but I didn't time to have t-shirts made so we'll go with "worthless as tits on a boar hog". That's 2 for no....

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Oct 3rd, '12, 16:31

Perhaps a more appropriate metaphoric cliche would be "like a screen door on a submarine"

Jamie MacKenzie · Post by **Jamie MacKenzie** » Oct 4th, '12, 22:45

I would like to replace the aluminum frames on my express cruiser. The previous owner glassed in the front, but didn't replace the side windows. I'd also prefer that the windows slide. Am I hallucinating about how much the Fiberglass frames would cost? Without Glass?

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Oct 5th, '12, 00:32

The fiberglass sides from Brodus Rose are about $900 each for non sliders. Sliders will be an upcharge but he has not posted that yet. I don't think thats too bad. The $11K was for a complete kit from High Tide without glass. Brodus Rose includes 3/8 tempered glass.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Oct 13th, '12, 20:57

I like the opening windows and my aluminum frames are still good.... well OK. The frames look good on the outside but pitted on the inside. I have new curved corner windows. The front centers open fine but the front port side shifts a little to port after a rough day offshore and takes a little wigglin' to get it closed back into the frame. I have other things I want to do to this B31 before I eventually upgrade to the fiberglass windows so I am hoping to get a few more years out of these. When I do upgrade I will definitely be interested in opening windows.

Unfortunately, I have some cracks in the side window glass and would like to replace the glass now if not too terribly difficult.
But, I have not yet figured out how to do this... and it is now appearing that it isn't going to be easy.
Anyone able to provide any suggestions.

Tom Parker

ljmauricio · Post by **ljmauricio** » Oct 14th, '12, 09:56

I do not disagree with the desireability of fiberglass window frames. They are permanent, with basically no maintenance. My 31 has the original aluminum frames which were removed,stripped, treated, primed and painted using Awl Grip products. Work was done by the previous owner. When I first saw the boat the frames were hanging in his work shop. The flybridge was supported with a 4x4. Workmanship was excellent. He had already purchased thick plexi, dark tinted windows for front and sides, so I don't know the cost of those windows. His plan was to reuse the curved windows. I agreed to pay the cost of the curved windows which was $450 for both. This work is about 1 year old and there are no problems to date. My point is that there is an alternative to the $9-11,000 cost for fiberglass frames. My guess is that there is about $1000 in material costs (windows and paint). If you reuse the existing windows the cost is a lot less. The prep work is labor intensive, but you have to remove and replace the windows in either case.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of fiberglass frames. Once done, they're permanent. I have no idea how long my frames will last. So far, so good.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Oct 14th, '12, 13:47

I am certainly glad to see that there is a process for renovating the aluminum frames and obviously for taking the glass out and replacing it. There are other things I would rather put that money into right now... the fiberglass frames can wait a while.

Now the question is.... what is the process for getting the old side glass out and the new in?
If anyone has ever done it or knows how I would certainly appreciate the 'tutorial'.

Tom Parker

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 15th, '12, 11:18

Bob,

Curious if you'd made any headway with the fiberglass frames?

Pete

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 15th, '12, 23:30

Actually a walk in the park! Step one locate the 5 SS. Screws in bottom and four in top located center of frame in the separation between tracks.cut screws out with Fein tool or porter cable multi purpose tool. When screws are remove run a thin scraper along top and bottom to remove original calking.frame is removed by tapping evenly from inside once frame is removed there is a triangle aluminum piece in one corner remove screws and frame will open. Purchase lucite and cut to size with reverse teeth jig saw and a lot of lubricant to keep blade cool.those looking for a beautiful contour can cut the lip off the outside off frame and recess the frame with a slight ( 1/8") reveal.i have the completed frame painted awl grip oyster white same as original gel cote color.dark tint lucite bp. A contribution to the captain and they are yours. See the Phoenix ( bob lico ) on boat images that the ones.

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Nov 15th, '12, 23:55

Pete,

I'm actually sending my boat down to Brodus next week. He's going to install all new frames (fronts, corners and slider sides) and make the molds for the new kit as he does it. I'm still working out the details and will keep you posted along the way.

Bob

Jamie MacKenzie · Post by **Jamie MacKenzie** » Nov 16th, '12, 10:25

I look forward to seeing pics and hearing how the sliders worked out. We need to replace the glass, which has some big chips---and I'm glad it's not too hard to get the old frames out. Maybe I could send them my frames to replicate?

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Nov 16th, '12, 18:12

I will also be interested to see how things work out. I bought side windows from brodus about 8 months ago. I was told the windows would match up to existing front window system. I too wanted to keep the operating windows. Note; i sent Brodus patterns of both window openings and frames. I am very dissapointed with fit and design of the new side windows. The style was different from the original windows, the glass lines do not line up with the front window and the window is designed to be installed by a 2" reveal that extends around the exterior of the entire frame not in the opening (similar to a house window). Brodus had promised he would stop by on his way to Maine about 2 months ago and look at the situation but i have not heard from him since. I am now stuck with making significant modifications to windows i just paid $1,500.00 or purchasing the new front system that Brodus is now promising. FYI - Brodus told me he was working on a new system for the Bertram about a year ago. Hopefully, Brodus is moving toward actually building the window. I would be sure however to get everything in writing with strict delivery dates.

Rick

jrhaszard · Post by **jrhaszard** » Nov 16th, '12, 19:54

BOBMX, have you delivered your boat to Broadus already? How did you get it down there? what is the status? I would really like to speak to you by phone if you could please give me a call. cell 772-913-0190. I live on the Northern Neck not far from Rawleigh, Thanks

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Nov 16th, '12, 21:17

Rick,

Several people forwarded your concerns to Brodus and this is the response he sent me:

"Bob,

Thanks for your inquiry regarding the windows built for Mr. Kral. We do have an issue with his windows that can be resolved. However, after viewing the numerous photos sent by Mr. Kral, I’m not comfortable with making any recommendations from a two dimensional photo. Therefore, I have committed to travel to the boat’s location, in conjunction with other business in the area, to address the issue. My travels have not yet occurred to that area.

My guess is that there is an alignment issue that needs some adjustments made. Although templates were supplied, sometimes additional adjustments may be necessary. The windows that we build have been used on numerous other 31’ Bertrams. With our windows, the mounting is typically from the exterior. The flange must be enlarged in order to have a surface large enough to adhere the frame to the vessel properly.

Please contact me with any further questions or concerns. 252-723-2222

Thank you,
Broadus Rose"

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Nov 17th, '12, 09:29

I believe Brodus is trying but i am not sure about his ability to deliver in the time frame he anticipates. I understand projects take longer than originally anticipated (i have been working on my 31 for 2 years and it's still not near going in the water). I wanted to pass along my experience to be sure you got proper documentation and strict construction time lines. As Brodus mentioned "his travels have not sent him my direction". Brodus told me no matter what he wanted to see the problems so that corrections could be made, if necessary, to future designs. I am not sure if Brodus has made any of these corrections as i have not heard from Brodus in 2 months when i sent him the pictures. I am not proficient at loading picutres on this site but i could try to email you a few if you are interested let me know.

As we all know, the oriiginal windows did not have a "flange" for mounting. Because of the flange design the glass in Brodus' window is larger. When the unit is installed in the original opening the glass lines from the original front windows and Brodus' side window is significantly different. The flange around the opening is also very noticable and different than the front window. Even if i am able to make the joint between the old front window system and Brodus' new side window work (still trying to figure that out) the window will look like a replacement not part of the boat. Obviously, this is not an area that you want to comprimise aestetics. I was told that the replacements had been installed in other Bertram 31's but i was never able to get a picture. If some one has installed these replacements i would interested in seeing pictures of the final product.

In the end it may be less expensive to buy Brodus' new front window system to match the side windows (although ventilation is sacrificed). At this time, i am looking into fabricating my own side windows and selling Brodus' replacements.

Rick

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 17th, '12, 15:34

The original side windows did have a flange and that was my topic side windows.i spent 10 months experimenting with transom mount rudders on a 32 Blackfin along with the rest of the running gear to get him to 30 knot cruise.

buzzk · Post by **buzzk** » Nov 17th, '12, 17:06

There's a picture of a 31 on The Hull Truth with his windows. Do a search of Sea Hottie on The Hull Truth. I thought they looked good on that boat.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Nov 18th, '12, 00:19

Bob Lico,
Thanks for the info on the side window removal. Sounds a little more difficult than a 'walk in the park'. Your description is very good and now I can see how pulling the whole frame to change the glass is the protocol. Not having done it or seen it done, I wasn't sure about how it was assembled or how it came apart.
The space between the frame and the fiberglass is barely thicker than a razor blade so I presume to expect some fiberglass damage when using the cutting tool on the screws. Or could it be that my B31 has simply 'settled into' a very tight fit? I also presume that upon re-installation of the frame, you have to relocate the attaching screws so as not to drive in on top of those cut off... Is there a best practice for re-installation/attachment?
Your experience is appreciated.

Tom Parker

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 18th, '12, 09:28

Tom there is a tendency to use a saws all to cut screws ------ bad move you will definitely damage fiberglass due to blade hitting flange on the outside and bouncing the blade all over the place. Obviously make every attemp to remove screws fist unfortunately the screws are slot type and marred very easily . A trick I use is take a thin blade scraper and sand even thinner on belt sander ,next I heat with torch and push along seam until I contact screw then mark for cut off . The hot blade cuts right thru the OEM . Dolphin style caulking compound. Tap with rubber or plastic hammer from inside and it will begin to move. The preparation of the window take a lot of work. Begin by using a kidde pool filled with chlorine or just bleach straight from bottle to remove salt deposits. Rinse twice and wire brush .you have to decide if you want the flush look and cut flange then recess in opening or remain stock. Awl grip dealer purchase Alumiprep, Alondine,545 epoxy primer,and awl grip oyster white top coat. You have three choices on glass replacement plexiglass which is cheap sh-t and will craze in time ,next is lucite bp, that can purchase tinted,next is tempered glass in grey lite with slight tint the other option I will mention although it cost a fortune that is greylite 14 actually limousine tint ,real one way glass for privacy.lucite is a project you can do yourself with we'll support cutting area that has been scribed fron poster board template . Use reverse teeth blade made for cutting lucite and paint thinner for lubricate. Do not let lucite vibrate and use straight edge clamp as guide . Good luck!

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Nov 18th, '12, 11:55

Rick,

I appreciate you sharing your experience with Brodus as that is what this board is all about. This is also the risk that service providers assume when they deal with individuals on this board. Good or bad everyone is going to report. For the record, I don't know Brodus and can only comment on the conversations I've had with him. My situation is probably safer as I am replacing everything at the same time, fronts, corners and sides. He is making a kit to include five pieces that should cosmetically flow together. I would be concerned about matching up any new part to ones 30-40 years old as I agree with you as this is not an area you want to compromise aesthetics. I saw the pics of the side windows on the Sea Hottie. They look real good but since he has glassed in fronts and corners he's not in the same boat we are as the cosmetics are much easier. I would like to see pics of yours if you have them. You would probably be best off to have him make you corners and fronts to match your sides. As much as it may sting to have to do this, it will give you the best end result and you should be done with this part of the boat as I'm hoping to be after mine. Aside from the issues with them matching up, how is the quality of the product?

Bob

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Nov 18th, '12, 20:30

Thanks Capt. Lico for the additional info. It does not sound like a weekend project. I may attempt it when she is hauled for new anti-foul in the spring. I may have to get back in touch with you once I get started depending on what I find when I get into it. Thanks again for the great info.

Tom Parker

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Nov 19th, '12, 15:47

Bob,
The quality of the work is good on the window themselves. You are correct in regards to Sea Hottie. The problem with the window Brodus produces is that it does not work well as a replacement for the side windows with out a complete front or glassed in front. At the time i was working with Brodus the front windows were not an option he had available. I wanted to keep the original operating front windows that were not in bad shape. My side windows were shot. I am working on learning how to upload pictures to the this site but i think i am going to have to ask one of my children to show me... If you send me an email adress or call me 203-561-9251 i will email you a couple of pictures. I am interested to hear how the front window design progresses. My project is in a holding pattern for next few weeks as real work is a priority. Has Brodus given you a time line?
Rick

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Nov 19th, '12, 16:33

Rick,
He said he is going to make both flip open and solid fronts. Time lines he said are about 6-8 weeks to finish. I want to get this and my hardtop done by spring as well as some other things so the timeline is critical for me. Ill send you my email to send the pics. Thanks.
Bob

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Nov 23rd, '12, 12:57

Bob, After some lessons, i was able to upload this photo. Note the wide mounting flange and size of the glass in the replacement window. Keep me posted on progress with Brodus and complete system. i am still contemplating my next steps. Bob Lico's points about building your own have me thinking.
Rick

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Nov 23rd, '12, 15:14

Rick,

I can see why you are frustrated, that's not a good fit at all! I'll post photos along the way and we'll see how mine comes out. Hopefully the complete kit will flow together as planned and you'll have another option as I'm sure you're not going to keep your boat like that for long.

Bob

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Dec 4th, '12, 23:53

And so it begins. Boat made to Brodus Rose today.

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Dec 5th, '12, 00:09

Before. Brodus is supposed to send me weekly photos. I'll post them as she goes.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 5th, '12, 08:43

Pretty boat. I hope to see her on the Bay next season.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 5th, '12, 12:11

Bob if I remember correctly the V berth was pretty original, have you done any updating to it? One of the few things not done.

John F don't pass up taking a look, lots of nice stuff. I believe cabrera decks, cockpit panels and engine boxes along with a nicely refurbished sportfish interior.

Can't wait to see how this goes! Good luck...

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Dec 5th, '12, 13:32

I added a vacuflush head and holding tank so far but am planning on updating the cabin, adding the hardtop, riggers and electronics package this winter as well. Goal is to be in the water April-May if everything works out. Hopefully will see you out there John.

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Dec 6th, '12, 17:50

Bob, Boat looks good. The window frames do not appear to be in bad shape. Are you planning to use fixed windows up front or has Brodus completed the design of an opening front window? I may be interested your side frames if you are going to sell them. Rick

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Dec 6th, '12, 18:47

Thanks. Im doing solid fronts and slider sides. He is doing a flip up front as well. My windows are not bad I just want new. You can have the old ones if you want them.

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Dec 7th, '12, 16:59

Sounds like the perfect set up. i spent my money on the engines. I will have to wait a few before I can do complete windows. I would be interested in the 2 side windows.

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Dec 8th, '12, 12:31

Rick, my old windows will be out of the boat next week. Help yourself to them if you want. I told Brodus to give them to you. Bob

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 8th, '12, 12:51

rick the most important process to remember is to remove the salt deposits from frame before starting work. you may also use kiddie pool with the product Salt Away in water for 1/2 hour then rinse with fresh water. the painting mode is really easy even for a novice painter like me because the area is so small you can just use foam roller . like i said here is a photo of the flange cut off then recess frame 1/8" in to create reveal line . the job came out perfect enhancing the beautiful lines off 31 bertram. the following year i removed all windows because i needed the "practice" and yes painted the super structure above the bow rail because i needed more experience painting a boat-----------------don`t ask two year old paint was perfect!!!!!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 8th, '12, 12:56

P.S. the entire job cost $ 120.00 dollars for one piece of 4' x8' of tinted lucite BP. i had the paint.

Rick Kral · Post by **Rick Kral** » Dec 9th, '12, 15:29

Bob and Bob Lico,
Both your boats are insperational. Thank you for the parts and the tips. I will contact Brodus next week to arrange shipping.

Even with the flange cut off the window that i had purchased from Brodus i was not satisfied with the alignment of the glass where the side window met the curve of the front windshield.

Thanks again,
Rick

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Dec 10th, '12, 10:10

bob lico wrote:P.S. the entire job cost $ 120.00 dollars for one piece of 4' x8' of tinted lucite BP. i had the paint.

Bob-
How did you seal the lucite in the old frames?
Thanks,
Stephan

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '12, 11:08

stephan after removing frame you place on flat table and remove aluminum triangle piece held in by two or three screws.the triangle is hidden from view but the screws are evident on 30 degree end of frame. remove and pull out existing glass that slides in the two slots formed by "fuzzes " .that keep water out. now if you are going to replace with one piece 1/4" glass/lucite you would use inner track and close both stock windows and measure overlap ,when you remove you use same overlap measurement as template for lucite.should me no more then two hour job remove glass insert new lucite. my humble opinion it make no sense what so ever to have sliding glass on hull side of both when a open front hatch has 10 times the air flow with open bulkhead door or cockpit windows open.and the enormous safety factor of one piece with no water entry. incidently you may find the track/fuzzies worn they are readily replaceable at seacoast or a number of marine supply houses.