20 or 26 Bertram opinions

[buzzk]

I'm thinking about buying a 20 Bertram Bahia Mar with outdrives. I'm not a fan of outdrives. I'm also looking at a 26 Bertram with inboards and one with outboards what's everyone's thoughts. I'm thinking a 26 with outboards is probably the best choice. I presently own a 33 Bertram with diesels but want somethhing a little smaller too. Thanks Buzz

[BCBertie]

I have a 26 w/ I/Os, and it's been a great boat (been in the family for 30 years). Not exactly thrifty on fuel, though...

I also have a 28 with Yanmars.

I've always wanted a 20 Bahia Mar, but there aren't too many on the left coast. But I'm still looking.

Cheers!

John

[John F.]

Big difference between a B20 and a B26. I have a B20 with a 200 Yamaha OB. Quick and efficient with a great ride. Love my B20. If you meant a B25 Bahia, there's one that looks pretty good on EBay now that its Northern VA.

[SteveM]

I agree, big difference in feel and probably weight.
I had an outbourd B26. Rare boat, they only made about a dozen of them from what I could tell. Check out http://www.bertram26.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for more info.
Great ride, super deep V.
Depends one where you are boating and what you will use it for.
There's a nice B20 Bahia Mar on ebay I believe right now.
I always liked the look of the B20 and the B25, pretty boats.

[buzzk]

I know comparing the 26 to the 20 is a big difference. It's like apples and oranges. I'm looking for something I could leave in Stuart Florida and fish off the beach as well as use up here in NC in the sound during the summer. I want something I can use by myself. I'm just not sure that the 20 would be large enough . Thanks Buzz

[Peter]

I grew up with a Bahia 20. Our family still owns it. I/O. Originally OMC V-8, now Mercruiser V-6.

I own a 26 I/0 FBSF

I had a 20 Moppie I/O for a while.

Sister has a 25 I/O hardtop

One Brother had a 31, went back to a 20 Bahia I/O.... a different one from the first one I mentioned.

Other Brother has a 33 Diesel, but he is the one who currently keeps the original Bahia 20 I/O. 33 is on the market, 20 Bahia is a keeper.

Here is the straight dope:

The 20 Bahia is a keeper. It is a pocket rocket of a blue water sports car that can get you to the fish and back in anything that you dare to hang on in. But it isn't big. However it is easy to trailer and easy to put right up on a remote beach for an afternoon ashore.

The 20 Moppie feels like a lot smaller boat than the 20 Bahia. You can take it out in tough stuff, but it doesn't feel as solid as the Bahia. Not because of the build or capability, but because of the way the deck house on the Bahia gives you a little measure of wrap around protection.

If you get serious about the Bahi 20 you would like it to have a v-6 of recent vintage. The straight 6's are geting old now and don't really bring that hull alive. The even older small block V-8's are all moorings by now. A four cylinder doesn't do it justice. But with a v-6 of 200+ HP you will grin.

The 26 is only a few feet longer but it is another class of boat altogether. It is also a serious boat for going out anywhere almost anytime... but it is more like a limo than a sports car. It will give you more space and more comfort for longer wetter runs, but the 20 will go pretty much anywhere anytime the 26 will, if you are young and bold enough to hang on.

If you want to nose up to the beach, or take the kids tubing, the 20 will beat out the 26 hands down. The 26 is a little too big for this. The 26 is just barely under a 10 foot beam which also makes it marginal for towing without a wide load permit. Even if you get away without the permit, and some people do, it is a heck of a rig to pull down the road.

Now I love my 26, but it is an I/O fbsf, which means it has an inside station and a real saloon. The OB 26 doesn't have these. The 25 FBSF looks similar to the 26, but has several diiferences. The 25 doesn't have the room in the saloon and has very limited head room by comparison. On the other hand the 25 is a Hunt design, which is classic, and the 26 is Napier. IMO the Hunt 25 is prettier, and actually is a little more "sea kindly" in moderate swell... but the 26 gives you more useful inside room and is plenty capable, just maybe not as smooth about it when the swell is over 2 foot high. Since the 25 OB version is a "Moppie," or sometimes called a convertable, and doesn't have the saloon or inside station a lot of my remarks would only apply if you put on a half tower or full tower and canvas. A lot of people did.

Peter

[John F.]

Pete- Wow...you and your family seem like they have the whole smaller Bertram spectrum covered. I love my B20, but she isn't a Bahia, or a CC, or really a Moppie anymore. But, I use her a few times a week to run around the Chesapeake and fish, and now and then to cruise over for dinner with the wife. She has a 200 hp V6, but probably not what Pete was thinking of. I get about 30 knts at 4200, and about 40 knts at 5200. The advantage as a CC over when she was a Moppie, outside of how much easier she is to fish, is that you're sitting/standing about 5' or 6' further aft--the difference in ride is signficant.

[Peter]

Sweet!

That power is exactly what I am talking about! What a nice looking boat!

(I should clarify that I am not a lover of Mercruiser I/O's. I like outboards for situations when you need to be able to lift up the drive like launch ramps or beaches. I speculate that if the outboards of the 60's had been as powerful and reliable as the outboards of today Ray Hunt would have used them in his designs. I am also of the opinion that when it comes to an old boat there is no need to be tied into doing an "original restoration" unless you want to create a museum piece.)

Your CC, or whatever you want to call it, is a nice setup. It is reminiscent of a Baron with that big foredeck. Very pretty! It is probably a lot easier to fish than the Bahia.

Yes, When I had the 20 Moppie I also felt the steering station was too far forward. In The Bahi it is further aft, though I don't think as far as in your arrangement.

The specific thing that makes the Bahia arragement work so well in really tough stuff is that you have the deck house both in front of you and wrapping back around beside you in either the drivers position or the left side seat. When the tide is against the wind and the swells in the inlet stack up scary-big...to where the 40+ foot sport fish boats just stay tied to the dock, the 20 just dances through. Your CC would handle it fine too... but you're gonna be happier if you to have some structure around you if you decide to take that ride. I speak from first hand experience.

Peter

[ianupton]

I love the 20 Bertram. I have a Bahia Mar now being redone.

The 20 is a great boat, but unless you find a garage artifact, be prepared to dig into her and redo the transom, stringers, etc. If redone correctly, you will have much more boat that about anything you can get new these days.

The 25Bertram site forum is down right now, but I have a thread in there documenting the restoration.

I can't wait to fire up the new 4.3 GXiE with Duoprop that I just bought.

Peter said it correctly - this small V6 will push her just over 50 mph. A little pocket rocket for sure.

Ian.

[Pete Fallon]

Guy's,
I had a 20 sportsman with a 165 I/O used it to commute from Salem to Marblehead for 3 summers, nice little boat. I have had the 31 express for 34 years still the nicest riding boat I've ever run. Surveyed a couple of 26's one in RI and one in Ft. Lauderdale. The 20 is more versitle easier to trailer and fish in fairly shallow water comparted to the wide body 26.

[buzzk]

I'm looking for a 20 Bhia Mar that's been restored, let someone else take the hit. What I'm hearing the 20 would be OK to use around the Stuart area for Sailfishing with me and my wife. I've seen some 20's with a self bailing deck and some that didn't have the plugs. What's the deal with that? Thanks for everyones help. Buzz

[John F.]

My understanding is that from the factory, they all had drains, but would sit too heavy in the stern, so were close to self-sinking. I agree with Ian--every B20 I looked at, including mine, that wasn't redone from the stringers up, had soft stringers, deck, and transom. If you find one that's "redone," make sure it was completely redone and redone properly. My B20 had been repainted, partial new cockpit, and transom converted to an OB. I bought it because I really wanted a transom-mounted OB B20, and it was the only one I'd ever seen in real life and for sale. I talked to the shop that had done the conversion, and they hadn't touched the stringers or some of the deck. I'm pretty sure its pretty rotten underneath--next project.

[Rocket]

The 20 is more comfortable in a given sea condition at a given speed than the 25. I have owned both, been out in Betram Weather in both and find the 20 to be a softer ride. The 25 of course is much more roomy, in fact for some inexplicable reason, I have just bought another 25. I hear alot of people say they are not big fans of out drives, again having owned outrdives, v-drives and outboard, they all have their place and one does not seem to be inherintly superior to all other, depends on the application. I would not change a thing about my 20 with the duoprop. Nicest boat I have ever run.

I eliminated the self sinking by eliminating the self-baling. In fact, I have no through hull whatsoever.

20, 25 or 26, whichever route you choose to go, you are going to love it, so no sweat, right?

[Craig Mac]

Haven't been in Stuart for a while, but I always admired a 20ft Bahia Mar that sat on a trailer in Finest Kind Marina.

[bobfioresi]

I have a 20' iguess.sportsman for sale.It has a 305 v8 with 1 hour on it and duo props. when i took it to fla near palm beach , it was great in the intercoastal and ocean. I don't use it up north as i have a 31. this boat fly;s

[buzzk]

I used to own a 25 FBSF and it rode really well. If the ride on a 20 is anything near as good as a 25 that would be great. Most of the Bertram 20's that I've looked at have a 40-50 gallon fuel tank. Will that run a 20 all day? What's the range on a 20 Bertram with a 40 gallon tank? Thanks Buzz

[Peter]

First of all I disagree that all old 20 Bahia Mars are rotten. Probably only the ones for sale. If they are sound they probably are not being sold, but handed down

Next all Bertram 20's had foam under the deck which is notorius for getting soaked. I think, but will not swear, that for a period of time a CG regulation required boats 20 feet and under to be unsinkable. Hence the dreaded foam. Ironicly this was at least in part as a result of the success of the Boston Whaler which is also a Ray Hunt design which in the early 60's set a new world standard for durability and safety. There was an add back then where they cut a whaler in half and the bow half was rowed away while the stern left under outboard power. Anyway for whatever reasons all B-20's were built with foam that sooner or later got soaked. It is an issue to deal with. The best and proper fix is to remove the deck, then remove the foam. When you do that you are bound to find the plywood in the stringers is rotten if the foam is badly soaked. I am not sure but the plywood probably doesn't add much strength to the stringers. Instead it acted more like a core over which to form a fiberglass stringer layup. The plywood could and would turn to mush or dust and the fiberglass would still provide more than sufficinet strength. I challenge anyone anywhere to show me a picture of a Bertram 20 that has had a hull failure due to rotten stringers. Period. And no.... the stringers themselves being rotten in their core doesn't count.

All the 20's I ever saw had drain plugs at the deck level in the transom. These are not for self bailing. They are indeed very effective for self sinking if the plugs are left out.

Somewhere in Canada there is a company that has a splash or a very close-to splash of the 20 Bahia molds. So you can buy the hull form in a brand new version if you want. I can't recall the name of it right now, (Canoe Cove?) but when the 25 board comes back up someone there will know. I know nothing of their build quality, though, and if you go to a 20 Bahia you want a really solid build because you will beat the s**t out of it while laughing out loud. They might be aces, they might not, and maybe you could tell them exactly how you want it.

If you are keeping your 33 the 20 Bahia is your hot set up. A 26 is a more like little 33... wherever you go inthe 26 you would say "I coulda taken the 33."

The tanks in the 20's are 30 or 40 gal under a large hatch. Easily replaced and increased to the range of 50 gal. How far will it take you? Well it depends on how heavy your hand is on the throttle. A 200 hp motor at speed will suck up around 10 GPH, so 4 hours.... but at 40-ish knots..... But you won't catch may fish at 40 knots. What you will catch is almost anything else on the water if there is more than a 2 foot chop.

Peter

[BCBertie]

If you are keeping your 33 the 20 Bahia is your hot set up. A 26 is a more like little 33... wherever you go inthe 26 you would say "I coulda taken the 33."

Peter

I would invert the quote: wherever you would take the 33, you'd say "I coulda taken the 26!"

;{>

John

[Rocket]

Peter as usual a thorough and thoughtful reply.

My 20 had at least 500 lbs of wet foam. I removed the sole and shoveled it out. While I had the sole out, I dropped in a 100 gallon aluminum tank. I put the foam back in which I feel stiffens the boat somewhat. Range - forever, I like the fact that I can run all day, cover a few hundred miles and still feel like I have plenty of reserve. I positioned the tank roughly where the fiberglass on came out, but extending much further forward. The ride and trim of the boat is largely unaffected by how full it is.

[captbone]

I would argue that the 20-25 Bertram would be the best addition instead of the 26. You can power the 20 or the 25 with a single outboard or sterndrive to simplify the process. This will allow you to keep it simple (single engine, single battery) and also keep cost down.

If you are going with a 20ft with a single 200hp OB, the cost to jump up to a 25ft with a single 250hp OB is not significantly more for what you get.

Just my 2 cents

[buzzk]

The good thing about a 20 would be the ease of trailering it. If I bought a 25 or 26 I probably wouldn't trailer it. I would just run it back and forth from Florida. Thanks Buzz

[CaptPatrick]

I'm thinking about buying a 20 Bertram Bahia Mar with outdrives. I'm not a fan of outdrives. I'm also looking at a 26 Bertram with inboards and one with outboards what's everyone's thoughts. I'm thinking a 26 with outboards is probably the best choice. I presently own a 33 Bertram with diesels but want somethhing a little smaller too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The good thing about a 20 would be the ease of trailering it. If I bought a 25 or 26 I probably wouldn't trailer it. I would just run it back and forth from Florida.

If it were me, I think that the last statement clairifies the choice. I'd go for the B20. Running the coast between FL and NC in a 26' OB powered boat wouldn't be great fun and real costly...

Br,

Patrick

[Peter]

Trailering the 20 Bahia is a piece of cake. It doesn't take a huge rig, it gets down the road just fine, it isn't overly wide, etc.

One of the best things is that launching or loading the Bahia 20 is a one-man job done in minutes if you have a roller bed trailer. What you may not be thinking about now, but what will come into play if you decide to go withthe 20 is is that it is so easy to launch or recover that it is absolutely not a barrier to use whatsoever. You can just pop it in for the afternoon if a good day comes along in the off season. Or you can just as easily pop it back out if you are going to be away for a long weekend and don't want to have to worry about it in a slip or on a mooring with no one around to mind it. Nothing to it.... Very handy!

Peter

[Rocket]

I agree with Peter about the ease of trailering a 20. I trailer my Baron from Vancouver to Kenora and back every year, over a 3,000 mile round trip. Piece of Cake. I have a bunk trailer and launch and recover by myself in minutes, the deep v is a great guide and I just power the boat right onto the trailer until it is snug against the bow snubber.

[boatnuts]

Although much less common, I believe the 24 is the pick of the litter in the 20-26 foot range. My personal taste gives them a thumbs in appearance and I believe the V to heel has benefits over the rounded keel of the 20 & 25. The 24 had no foam when built and the stringers were completely encapsulated in fiberglass. The weight is reasonable and the cockpit with it's flat floor from stem to stern affords ample space. Simply a great boat to drive. Just my 2 cents.

[buzzk]

I don't believe I've ever seen a 24. But I'll start looking. Right now I'm thinking a 20 Bahia Mar is what I need. Thanks Buzz

[boatnuts]

Not the best pic but this is a 1971 Bertram 24

[buzzk]

That's a pretty boat. But I haven't seen any for sale.

[Peter]

I believe the 24 is the pick of the litter in the 20-26 foot range. My personal taste gives them a thumbs in appearance and I believe the V to heel has benefits over the rounded keel of the 20 & 25.

That 24 is a pretty boat. I have never seen one in real life. Didn't they make a pop-top version where the foredeck lifted up and made a camper? Somewher in my memeory bank I think I saw pictures of such a thing. But very rare.

When you say "...the V to the heel...." I assume that you are talking about the V-botom at the keel not becoming rounded just forward of the transom. This roundness is characteristic of the Hunt designs and was present in the 25's, 31's and in is present in the 20's as well. The 26 is a Napier design and does not have this particular feature. Instead the keel is a sharp V all the way to the transom. I don't know for certain but I suppose the 24 is Napier as well. It has his look.

This roundness of the aft keel is an interesting design feature for a number of reasons. Ultimately a Hunt rounded keel aft might not be as fast as the Napier V-all-the-way designs, but it does offer some better planing surface all the way aft where these boats carry their weight. So the Hunts plane more easily at a lower power setings then comprable Napiers.

However with the cost of fuel these days I have a new interest in finding the lowest power setting that is comfortable to keep my Napier 26 moving smartly, and though the boat starts to feel a bit "dead" at low power settings and 19 knots cruise it is in fact still planing. In the days before $5 and $6 a gallon marina gas you would have just bumped the throtttle up another inch to make it feel more lively even though you would only gain about 2 knots or so at the substantially higher cruise power setting.

Also the rounded keel reduces some volume aft right at the transom. Since this volume is carried very deep and pointy in the Napier it provides buoyancy of a sort that contributes to rocking while drifting. Sort of like tryng to hold a beach ball under water in the pool. It really doesn't want to stay underneith you, and if you let it get a little to one side it really wants to go that way with a lot of force. When under way this isn't an issue as dynamic stability of the V takes over even at pretty low speeds.

For straight speed I figure the V all the way aft is probably better because any roundness there has to permit transverse flow in that area, and that has to add to drag, but it can't be much. And if you are going airborn a lot, (like an ocean racing boat) the V all the way aft has other value for re-enty as well. But I try to not get my 26 airborn if I can help it, unlike in my younger days with the Bahia 20 which I can say with absolute authority flies very well.

Peter

[boatnuts]

Peter
I really enjoyed your post and your attitude. I am very familiar with the ins and outs on the rounded over and V heels. I have had both and can easily live with either. I believe the 24 was a Napier. It planes easily even with a load and 5 people sitting on the back seat. I tend to cruise at 2600-2800 where i get my best economy (about 4 mpg) but it will stay on plain at about 2000. I personally chose this hull after my my years of owning 2 different Donzi hull sizes and a 25-1/2 Magnum Marine. Although I have had more than my fair share of issues with a new Mercruiser engine, the hull has yet to disapppoint.

[jprobins]

You really can't go wrong with either boat. The biggest difference may be that the 20 is a lot more easily trailer able if that matters to you. That said, I have an original outboard model 26, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. KT will take anything you throw at it. It flies. I can easily run it by myself. It is economical. And I just think it is cool. But that's just me.

[jprobins]

Just a side note. You mention that you will run the boat part time in NC. It happens that I bought my 26 from a guy in NC and had it trucked to Texas. I understand he used it primarily for bottom fishing offshore.

[Peter]

First:

I personally chose this hull after my my years of owning 2 different Donzi hull sizes and a 25-1/2 Magnum Marine

I would love to hear your thoughts about those various boats and how they compare.

Second:
Yep.... the outboard 26 IS cool. The only Bertam factory OB boat ever.

Peter