3116 Cat
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
There is a B31 in Port Aransas Tx with 3116 Cats in it, He has had them in the boat for 5 years he fishes about 150 days a year and puts lots of hours on them with no problems to speak of. He said they are heavy 1100 lb engines. I think the main thing for him was dealer support Cat seems to have a dealer in every podunk town on the Texas Coast.
Clay
Clay
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Capt. Mike Holmes
- Senior Member
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- Location: Freeport, Texas
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Cats
I bet they weigh way more than 1,100 lbs. I looked under the hood of Dr. Brian Jordan's boat at Port Eads, and the 3116's filled up all availabe space, - and that boat originally had 3208's. They've had problesm with the engines with Belgium made heads, serious problems, which is why the engine was discontinued. The ones that didn't have those seem to run real good.
Clay, I was supposed to go to Corpus last week to shoot pictures for a Southern Boating article, cancelled out because it was supposed to rain. Might go down in a week or two, I'll let you know if and when i do.
Clay, I was supposed to go to Corpus last week to shoot pictures for a Southern Boating article, cancelled out because it was supposed to rain. Might go down in a week or two, I'll let you know if and when i do.
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
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scot
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Oct 3rd, '06, 09:47
- Location: Hurricane Alley, Texas
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The 3116 CAT doesn't have the greatest reputation, as Mike mentioned. Personally I would not be too exicited about having 3116's in a boat, and 1,100lbs would be considered "light" in the diesel world. The CAT 3208's are pushing 2,000lbs.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
You should go to boatdiesel.com to get all the facts on the 3116. Not all of the engines had problems, just the ones that had "soft" blocks from France (geez, what a surprise? Something soft from France!).
If the engines are still running and they're rated at 300hp or less (anything over and I believe that reliabilty could be an issue), then the chances are pretty good that they'll be fine as most of the "bad" engines were been pulled by Cat quite a while ago.
Of course the other problem you'll have is that you'll have engines that any potential buyer will consider problematic (deservedly or not).
As these are straight 6's, I don't think fit should be an issue as the straight 6's from Yanmar and Cummins seem to fit just fine.
If the engines are still running and they're rated at 300hp or less (anything over and I believe that reliabilty could be an issue), then the chances are pretty good that they'll be fine as most of the "bad" engines were been pulled by Cat quite a while ago.
Of course the other problem you'll have is that you'll have engines that any potential buyer will consider problematic (deservedly or not).
As these are straight 6's, I don't think fit should be an issue as the straight 6's from Yanmar and Cummins seem to fit just fine.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
cat 3116
I don't have a grudge against cat or any company, but i don't think those engines will ever live down their reputation. I have heard many a mechanic say no to them. For what it's worth i heard that the block was cast in Belgium with not the correct material and its considered a soft block. I'm sure that fella from Riveria Beach named Bruce will let us know.
Soft alloy was a problem.
Not all 3116 engines failed like the original Mangrenades. But Cat, like Man suffered a big black eye.
Cat also had a problem with a run on 3208's back in the mid 80's with bad cam gears. They would break and pistons would hit the valves. They quietly covered the repairs and kept a tight lid on it.
Get the serial numbers of the engines and call Cat to see if these engines were of the same alloy problems.
If they are the 350hp version you will most likely need a 1.25:1 gear to fit a prop. Anything over that and prop pockets would be required.
With that in mind you are not really taking full advantage of the hp rating with the higher ratio.
The short lived 31 classic from Cabrera's kid used that engine in the 350hp range with pockets.
Not really the best choice for the 31 due to weight and size.
Keep looking, there are a bunch of 4 or 6bta engines out there.
What ever engine you buy, have them surveyed.
Not all 3116 engines failed like the original Mangrenades. But Cat, like Man suffered a big black eye.
Cat also had a problem with a run on 3208's back in the mid 80's with bad cam gears. They would break and pistons would hit the valves. They quietly covered the repairs and kept a tight lid on it.
Get the serial numbers of the engines and call Cat to see if these engines were of the same alloy problems.
If they are the 350hp version you will most likely need a 1.25:1 gear to fit a prop. Anything over that and prop pockets would be required.
With that in mind you are not really taking full advantage of the hp rating with the higher ratio.
The short lived 31 classic from Cabrera's kid used that engine in the 350hp range with pockets.
Not really the best choice for the 31 due to weight and size.
Keep looking, there are a bunch of 4 or 6bta engines out there.
What ever engine you buy, have them surveyed.
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Mike Moran
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Jul 2nd, '06, 19:01
- Location: Madison Ct.
I had a lobster boat here in ct. with a 300hp. 3116 ran it hard 7200 hrs. when I sold it, ran like a bear, check ser. numbers with cat. if a heads up service mang. he can tell you the scoop. the engine i had no leaks used little or no oill between changes the boat was 35ft 18000 lb. good luck, Mike Moran
While there is a lot of valuable and well stated info above.. I would like to offer my 1 1/2 cents worth..
Prior to buying my B33 with 6Bs, I looked at several other boat and engine combinations, several with 3116 engines.. being new to diesels I asked almost everyone I ran into about them, after reading Pascoe's comments about them in his book "Mid Sized Power Boats... A Guide For Descriminating Buyers". My conclusion after several months of asking questions was that, admittedly, there were some 3116s with "French" or "soft" blocks, that had faulty metallurgy which lead to premature failure, Cat did not do a good job of addressing the situation.. finally it seems they took the position that not all blocks were "soft", so they told owners to pretty much run the engines and see if they failed prematurely.. those that did were dealt with somehow, those that did not kept running. One Cat tech told me about 18 months ago.. "What the hell.. if it is running today it is OK, all the soft ones have failed by now". From what I learned that seems to be the case.. they either failed early or they ran fine, and if the latter was the case they performed well. Comments above echo that. many on the Boatdiesel forum also say this.
My personal concern, assuming the 3116s I was looking at were running well today, was resale value. That engine has a terrible reputation in many people's minds, and there is a lot of misinformation about them. many people don't care about whether the blocks are French or not.. they just don't want anything to do with that engine.. period. Myself included, specifically because one day when you decide to sell the boat.. you will be selling engines with a bad reputation that will be several years older. Resale value alone would be the main issue for me.
Prior to buying my B33 with 6Bs, I looked at several other boat and engine combinations, several with 3116 engines.. being new to diesels I asked almost everyone I ran into about them, after reading Pascoe's comments about them in his book "Mid Sized Power Boats... A Guide For Descriminating Buyers". My conclusion after several months of asking questions was that, admittedly, there were some 3116s with "French" or "soft" blocks, that had faulty metallurgy which lead to premature failure, Cat did not do a good job of addressing the situation.. finally it seems they took the position that not all blocks were "soft", so they told owners to pretty much run the engines and see if they failed prematurely.. those that did were dealt with somehow, those that did not kept running. One Cat tech told me about 18 months ago.. "What the hell.. if it is running today it is OK, all the soft ones have failed by now". From what I learned that seems to be the case.. they either failed early or they ran fine, and if the latter was the case they performed well. Comments above echo that. many on the Boatdiesel forum also say this.
My personal concern, assuming the 3116s I was looking at were running well today, was resale value. That engine has a terrible reputation in many people's minds, and there is a lot of misinformation about them. many people don't care about whether the blocks are French or not.. they just don't want anything to do with that engine.. period. Myself included, specifically because one day when you decide to sell the boat.. you will be selling engines with a bad reputation that will be several years older. Resale value alone would be the main issue for me.
Resale value is a point to consider if you are buying a 30k diesel and then reselling a few years later.
If you can pickup used diesels cheap cause of budget constraints, install them already doing the conversion and then have to sell it, then you've not really lost anything even if its sold as a possible engine swap candidate.
The problem with the internet is the mass of misinformation available, even from so called reputable people like Pascoe who has a chip on his shoulder and a bias in most of his articles as wide as Rosie O'Donnell.
If you have an engine that fails and had bad service from the dealer you will come to the conclusion that engine is junk and thus believe all the same engines are junk. Every time someone asks a question about said engines and the owner comes across it, they will post a negative report.
A truly intelligent opinion cannot be determined unless you see it from a servicing dealers stand point who sees those engines everyday.
This goes for just about any product.
Bad taste in a buyers mouth will do more to spread misinformation that anything else.
Remember the nut job who spent all that money all those years hiring a tow plane to dis Man?
If it weren't for man's investment in Viking Yachts, they would have folded years ago and the engines are widely used.
The point comes to mind about Ric reporting how the guy he met in Costa Rico from St Petersburg had nothing but bad things to say about the Yanmar 6LP cause of problems he had which turned out to be that he was severly underturning the engine.
But it didn't matter to him why the engine failed, it just failed so he thought it was junk.
The internet is full of opinions and like a**holes, everyone has one including me. No one place or person is always right. We all form bias based on various things that will reveal itself in our opinions.
If you can pickup used diesels cheap cause of budget constraints, install them already doing the conversion and then have to sell it, then you've not really lost anything even if its sold as a possible engine swap candidate.
The problem with the internet is the mass of misinformation available, even from so called reputable people like Pascoe who has a chip on his shoulder and a bias in most of his articles as wide as Rosie O'Donnell.
If you have an engine that fails and had bad service from the dealer you will come to the conclusion that engine is junk and thus believe all the same engines are junk. Every time someone asks a question about said engines and the owner comes across it, they will post a negative report.
A truly intelligent opinion cannot be determined unless you see it from a servicing dealers stand point who sees those engines everyday.
This goes for just about any product.
Bad taste in a buyers mouth will do more to spread misinformation that anything else.
Remember the nut job who spent all that money all those years hiring a tow plane to dis Man?
If it weren't for man's investment in Viking Yachts, they would have folded years ago and the engines are widely used.
The point comes to mind about Ric reporting how the guy he met in Costa Rico from St Petersburg had nothing but bad things to say about the Yanmar 6LP cause of problems he had which turned out to be that he was severly underturning the engine.
But it didn't matter to him why the engine failed, it just failed so he thought it was junk.
The internet is full of opinions and like a**holes, everyone has one including me. No one place or person is always right. We all form bias based on various things that will reveal itself in our opinions.
Bruce..
I have absolutely no disagreement with what you say.. and while I learned a lot as a newbie from Pascoe's book and online reviews I have been told by several people whom I respect that he is occasionally way out of line in some of his positions. I suppose anyone in this business who publishes definite opinions on almost any aspect of boating, including you, is accused of being biased, prejudiced or just plain wrong. Even as a newbie after I read his book I concluded Pascoe would never recommend you go to sea in anything but a Hatteras or Bertram with Cat 3208s.
It is precisely for many of the reasons you mention that I recommended to JP that he avoid the 3116s.. If any engine can be bought for the right price a financial justification can be made for repowering with them, even gassers.. and then the buyer is faced with how much $$$ the installation costs would be. From what I read here none of us (except perhaps a small number, which certainly does not include myself) are flush with cash, so investing wisely is important. (Perhaps I should rephrase the previous sentence to say "spending wisely is important", since buying a boat is not a true investment for most iof us, rather it is just an expense). Repowering with 3116s from my point of view (better to say from my financial position) most likely does not make sense, unless you can do the whole installation for so little you can later sell the boat as a repower candidate. I suspect there are no real guidelines in this case except that each owner has to make his decisions based on the knowledge of the 3116's history and present reputation, and goes into the project with his eyes wide open and understands that when it comes time for him to sell the boat he will need to find the right buyer who is not afraid of buying engines many of us would not consider. IMHO that is a much smaller group of prospective buyers, who probably are knowledgeable enough that they will beat the seller to death over pricing.
I have absolutely no disagreement with what you say.. and while I learned a lot as a newbie from Pascoe's book and online reviews I have been told by several people whom I respect that he is occasionally way out of line in some of his positions. I suppose anyone in this business who publishes definite opinions on almost any aspect of boating, including you, is accused of being biased, prejudiced or just plain wrong. Even as a newbie after I read his book I concluded Pascoe would never recommend you go to sea in anything but a Hatteras or Bertram with Cat 3208s.
It is precisely for many of the reasons you mention that I recommended to JP that he avoid the 3116s.. If any engine can be bought for the right price a financial justification can be made for repowering with them, even gassers.. and then the buyer is faced with how much $$$ the installation costs would be. From what I read here none of us (except perhaps a small number, which certainly does not include myself) are flush with cash, so investing wisely is important. (Perhaps I should rephrase the previous sentence to say "spending wisely is important", since buying a boat is not a true investment for most iof us, rather it is just an expense). Repowering with 3116s from my point of view (better to say from my financial position) most likely does not make sense, unless you can do the whole installation for so little you can later sell the boat as a repower candidate. I suspect there are no real guidelines in this case except that each owner has to make his decisions based on the knowledge of the 3116's history and present reputation, and goes into the project with his eyes wide open and understands that when it comes time for him to sell the boat he will need to find the right buyer who is not afraid of buying engines many of us would not consider. IMHO that is a much smaller group of prospective buyers, who probably are knowledgeable enough that they will beat the seller to death over pricing.
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Capt. Mike Holmes
- Senior Member
- Posts: 610
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 20:58
- Location: Freeport, Texas
- Contact:
Resale?
A lot of this discussion centers on resale value. While some 31 owners will always end up selling to move up - or out of boating, most of us feel we have the boat we want to stick with. I considered moving up recently, but when I look over the pictures of all the work I've done on my boat - most of it myself (hell, virtually ALL of it!), I just don't see how I could let it go. It certainly wouldn't be considered an investment.
If the boat is destined to be kept for the foreseeable future, maybe passed on to another generation of steward, a repower can be just for you. After taking Bruce's excellent advise on making the initial decision, a lot of personal factors can enter in. Many of the guys with gas engines are old hot rodders who love to work on the engines to squeeze more out of them and keep them running great. Hard to run a car at this performance level on the street anymore, so it's sort of a dual hobby. If someone finds a good deal on 3116's that are proven, and doesn't mind the size and weight - why not? We all have different likes and dislikes.
I put converted truck engines in my boat. Not everyone would - or should - go this route, and I doubt the resale would be as good to the average buyer as with factory marine setups. They are diesels, with diesel advantages, they run great, and I enjoyed getting them in and tweaking them for better performance. As a boating writer, I gained enough experience and knowledge in this repower to overcome - again, for me - any disadvantages of the conversions. Looking back, would I have been better off spending a little more (or a lot more) and having new marine diesels professionally installed, where I could just take possession after the repower and be off to the races? Again, that depends. I had a time schedule for when I expected to retire from my day job, and wanted to be complete by then. The engines are good to go, so although I will be forever doing cosmetic updates, etc., I have stayed fairly close to my plan.
Now I'm ready to go fishing, bad back be damned!!
If the boat is destined to be kept for the foreseeable future, maybe passed on to another generation of steward, a repower can be just for you. After taking Bruce's excellent advise on making the initial decision, a lot of personal factors can enter in. Many of the guys with gas engines are old hot rodders who love to work on the engines to squeeze more out of them and keep them running great. Hard to run a car at this performance level on the street anymore, so it's sort of a dual hobby. If someone finds a good deal on 3116's that are proven, and doesn't mind the size and weight - why not? We all have different likes and dislikes.
I put converted truck engines in my boat. Not everyone would - or should - go this route, and I doubt the resale would be as good to the average buyer as with factory marine setups. They are diesels, with diesel advantages, they run great, and I enjoyed getting them in and tweaking them for better performance. As a boating writer, I gained enough experience and knowledge in this repower to overcome - again, for me - any disadvantages of the conversions. Looking back, would I have been better off spending a little more (or a lot more) and having new marine diesels professionally installed, where I could just take possession after the repower and be off to the races? Again, that depends. I had a time schedule for when I expected to retire from my day job, and wanted to be complete by then. The engines are good to go, so although I will be forever doing cosmetic updates, etc., I have stayed fairly close to my plan.
Now I'm ready to go fishing, bad back be damned!!
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
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