Radical idea? or pure genius?

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 20th, '11, 10:27

Here's a concept that might be worth some discussion.

Convert a B31 from straight inboards to pod drives. Cummins/Mercruiser Zeus drives are available in a 5.9l package with hp ranges 350 to 480. Twin pods in pockets might be a good alternate to the old tech inboards.

http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/rec/po ... sb-59.html

An even more interesting concept is to convert the boat to a single 480hp pod. Make a tunnel pocket like Scot is building for his 25. Joystick drive with a bow thruster improves control. Much improved mileage. Not a speed boat, but might let you afford to go out more often. Opens up the cabin area. Might make a really intersting center console design with a raised helm station on top of the single engine box, maybe a tube tower/hardtop. Closed cuddy up front.

SeeVee has a proof of concept boat with this pod. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxeFc1mHeE

A single pod drive has to be less expensive than the twin inboards and easier to live with!

Crazy idea #1 for today...

Cam

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 20th, '11, 10:30

Wrong You tube link in initial post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqSOLMAJ ... re=related

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Oct 20th, '11, 11:24

Why?

UV

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 20th, '11, 12:16

Why not?

Start with a hull, or a boat that needs a complete re-power. A single pod might be a better choice than twin inboard diesels.

Superior maneuverability
Much improved efficiency and range
Probably lower initial cost and life cycle costs
Allows for some interesting deck layouts/configurations.

Just trying to be creative...

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 20th, '11, 12:41

The pods are not that great. They break all the time. I see them being fixxed in the yard. One owner told me he was lucky to have 3 pods because that way he always had 2. He has had his boat pulled out 25 times in two years. What ever fuel savings he has spent fixxing the dam things.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Oct 20th, '11, 13:24

Lower initial cost? No way. You'd have to have enough money to not care what the cost would be. Even then, I doubt it would be worth it.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Oct 20th, '11, 13:41

A single pod might be a better choice than twin inboard diesels.

Maybe for a B20, everything heavier, especially the B31 and above would be severely under powered. Plus the lost redundancy of the second engine means "strike one" and you're out.

Modifications to the hull, re-configuring center line fuel tankage, deck spaces, engine beds, etc. would gobble up a ton of bucks real fast. I'd venture to say that I could repower two twin engine boats for the same money as re-configuring for a single engine along with the cost of the gooffy assed pod.

Only makes partial sense if the boat is already single engine inboard power to start with. And that sense falls in the 40% range...

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 20th, '11, 14:05

One of the things that I loved about my B31 was that all in all, it was a pretty simple, bullet proof boat. A pod or pods would change that...

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Oct 20th, '11, 14:22

Ditto all the above. There is a reason the serious marine industry settled on the straight inboard drive many years ago - simple, and pretty much trouble free vs. gears running in oil under water.

Now as to ease of handling, I'll challenge anyone, anywhere, pods or no pods, to a manuvering contest vs. my B31 with the twin Cummins 250s and the big ole 21 x 22 props....I can move her a millimeter at a time in any direction.....and bet all the Faithful can do the same. Our boats are near perfect, which is why we are gathered here, come to think of it.

UV

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 20th, '11, 14:40

I'd say the Pods with thruster combo will maneuver the boat a whole lot better then any straight inboard configuration. But then our boats handle quite well in tight quarters so not much of a plus there for me.

Economy...think if your dumping Pod, Install and Extensive Modification Costs into the boat...you may never see the benefit, unless you use it like Brewster.

Deck Layout...now what better deck layout could you have....Our 31 decks are wide open space. Perfect! Nothing to reconfigure.

Install one or a pair and I'd love to go along for a ride...

Carl

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 20th, '11, 15:14

Well that Sea Vee seems like a cool boat. Would seem that the single inboard engine style boats could benefit from the pod in terms of manuverabilty. I really like inboard center consoles, not enough of them around.

Unfortunately the most common single diesel boats are down east style and there would need to be a major modification to the centerline keel just to fit the pod and moving sideways with a joystick with a big keel would seem to be a problem. Not sure it would work at all.

I like the idea of the new technology but i'll let the guinea pigs work out the kinks with their wallet.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 20th, '11, 15:34

gooffy assed pod

I love it!

I'm glad I could stir things up today! I guess I'm way off the mark with my poddies....they look pretty cool, though! I've never had the pleasure of riding in a B31...Hell, I haven't even finished my 25 finished after 2.5 years! Thank God my antique 13 Whaler still runs or I'd be swimin' with a fishing pole duct taped to my arse!!

Cam

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Oct 20th, '11, 16:28

I have never left a day on the water when I said..."...that would have been a better day if my boat could do 5 knots sideways..."
Besides, if I want to run into stuff with the side of my boat I'll just start drinkin' again.

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Oct 20th, '11, 17:54

I believe the key to the Bertrams ride is the running angle, proud bow, low in the stern. The following sea ride would suffer if you flattened out the running angle and I think a pod drive would do just that. They are designed to push the hull at much flatter angle that is the claim to fame and efficiency.
If it ant broke dont fix it...my 2 cents...BH

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 20th, '11, 18:12

Created for a displacement hull. That ain't us

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Oct 20th, '11, 18:37

An outboard engine, now there's the ticket!

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Oct 20th, '11, 19:15

UV you hit the nail on the head. I laugh at all these Big CC with multiple OB and a bow thruster for docking. Give me twin or even a single diesel and I can out manuver a multi OB boat hands down. OB's have no real thrust in reverse. I can spin my B31 on a dime and give .09 back. friends tell me all the the time how nimble the B31 is in tight spaces. It amazes them.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 20th, '11, 19:23

Sim I would never put those things in. "The enemy of good is better" as UV says. Props facing forward? One engine? Do you know how many times I have come in on one? I cant count that high. I take care of my power, and things go wrong. Run to the trench 40 times a year and stuff breaks. This last time it was a 47$ part that cost me 5,000.$ in the end. Pods are a lie, put forth by sales guys. I need the money. Cant bet on new stuff. Two engines and a 31 Bertram is the best there is. Some go faster, some are bigger, but; no better than"THE BEST BOAT EVER BUILT". I could have any boat. I chose the best one for the job.

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Oct 20th, '11, 19:33

Amen, Brew!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Oct 20th, '11, 21:56

Up here in our area, shallow bays, pods are grounding waiting to happen. When I was doing the repower, the Dealer had one in that had an electrolysis problem. The pod was pretty much gone.

Keep it simple. I bet in 10 years they are back to straight inboards, due to cost and issues.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 20th, '11, 22:14

The more parts, the more issues. Issues=costs. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple, stupid! Especially in a rocking sea. I don't even like computerized engines that shut themselves off without telling you why. Would love to be offshore on a rough day with an EPA guy on board when that happens. The pods are the perfect marketing tool to sell to a guy with triple outboards.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Oct 21st, '11, 00:45

Guys,
PODS = Piece of Dog Shit.
Why increase your draft, add two larger holes in your bottom, put an I/O unit under your stern to create more drag, add another inside shaft(jack shaft), add two larger elements to corrode and two forward facing unprotected props. Try and get a replacement unit within a day or two, no way maybe a 2 to 3 weeks at this time if your lucky.
None of it makes any sense in a 31' boat. I can see the application in slow moving tugs or displacement hulls. What is the sense in a planing hull that is already easy to dock with twins, has minimal thru hull shaft logs and can be fixed by almost anyone that can turn a wrench.
It's all a ploy by people that think they can improve the wheel and separate fools from there money. Just my humble opinion.

By the way is anyone going to the Ft Lauderdale Boat Show October 27 thru 31. I'll be down there on Thursday, Saturday and Monday. My cell 1-310-7179

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Oct 21st, '11, 18:24

I cant believe that the idea of this was even suggested... What would it achieve? A good alternate to old tech inboards? Seriously? Why would you change something that has been proven functional in a bertram 31 for how many years now? 50? Come on... Crap like this can be compared to wanting to change the (insert perfection here)

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Oct 21st, '11, 23:10

I agree - with who? !!

Technology is cool. Early adopters take it on the chin.

Best to KISS, for sure, but we all do love a rogue.

Ray Hunt was a freak who believed that you could run deadrise ro the transom. Dick Bertram and Sam Griffiths felt that they could push it to the limit. Cool use of technology....Pods could easily be a P.O.S. but don't shout down new ideas...I live for new ideas...

Cool stuff, might be a wrong aplication, but bring it on!!

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Oct 25th, '11, 19:20

2 prominent boat builders today offer this drive system ,Tiara has for several years and Viking in their smaller boats, I looked into the tecknologywhen I was redoing my boat, Cummins advised against it saying the hull wasn't designed for this type thrust, better fuel consumption, better speed ,greater maneuverability , and to be able to leave the wheel when fishing for swordfish by having the gps communicate with the power source to keep the boat in place , certainly have a place if u are looking 4 those nicieities

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Oct 25th, '11, 22:13

Marlin wrote:2 prominent boat builders today offer this drive system ,Tiara has for several years and Viking in their smaller boats, I looked into the tecknologywhen I was redoing my boat, Cummins advised against it saying the hull wasn't designed for this type thrust, better fuel consumption, better speed ,greater maneuverability , and to be able to leave the wheel when fishing for swordfish by having the gps communicate with the power source to keep the boat in place , certainly have a place if u are looking 4 those nicieities

From what i have been told, this is the biggest hurdle for a repower. The entire hull has to be changed and reinforced to accept the pods and the transmission of power almost directly into the hull rather than through engine mounts and into the stringers.

When all is said and done, I like the idea of all the goodies, I don't like the idea of that expensive pod hanging off my boat!

Hopefully someone else who has money to burn will give it a go and let us all know how it worked.

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Oct 26th, '11, 03:39

A second option would be a Hamilton Jet Drive. I've been turning wrenches at Hinckley Yachts in Stuart and the jet drives are super simple, low draft and easy to maintain. I haven't got to run one yet but with a little baby thruster they spin & turn on a dime.

I wouldn't put them in my boat but they would work better then the pod if you wanted to waste your money to be different.

Cheers
RussP

ianupton · Post by **ianupton** » Oct 26th, '11, 06:18

Russ,

Jets are very inefficient as well.

Another downside. My uncle had a Hamilton jet in his custom aluminum plate alloy boat. He has since repowered to a D3 with duo prop.

Ian.

Eddy G · Post by **Eddy G** » Oct 26th, '11, 08:03

Here's a 38 Bertram that was done. Showing pictures of how the hull was reinforced. May be the first repower done with IPS. Not an IPS fan at all, but here you go.
http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm? ... d_ID=39675

Eddy G.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Oct 26th, '11, 08:36

Guy's,
I saw a 38 Bertram with pod drives last year in FT Pierce at a regional meeting of SAMS. The owner was a pro mechanic, a dealer for Volvo and the fiberglass prep and finish for the giant spider type re-inforcing ring was quite an undertaking. I think he told me by the time he had 2 rings and spiders glassed in it was over 30K in just FRP and interior finish. Add that to the cost of the PODS, jack shafts and engines and it just dosen't make much sense. I saw the boat perform, it was quite impressive, GPS kept the boat in one spot, un-tied in the slip with the current running out. Very stealthy, you could hardly hear the exhaust when leaving the slip or on start up. To me it's not an application for a 31, even if you have lots of free cash laying around. I know Marlin and he dosen't do anything half assed and money is not a factor, if he says that it not for a 31 believe him.
Pete

ZeroCavity · Post by **ZeroCavity** » Oct 26th, '11, 09:31

Another possibility of having one engine :

http://www.boattest.com/resources/view_ ... ewsid=3230

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Oct 26th, '11, 10:06

I wouldn't do it due to the excessive cost in doing so. That being said, I would do it for the performance changes.

I watched a 13 year old girl dock the Volvo boat at the Tred Barta tourney this summer. That boat is 70' long. She made it look easy.

I love the anchor feature. There is a lot to love.

That 38' bert saw huge efficiency gains, by that I mean less fuel, higher speed for cruise.

There will be a time, but it may not be now.

Really cool idea, and give it time for the bugs to get worked out. Maybe not an ideal repower method, but I am open to the idea. That being said, too much money by a long shot for me.

Dug

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Oct 26th, '11, 21:13

The Cummins/Volvo dealer who I have become pretty friendly with and who's opinion I respect, says the performance on a boat is unbelievable.

He had to learn how to work on them and got to run one. He was impressed. He grew up around boats, in fact his grandfather was an old time NJ boat builder. So he does know boats.

That being said, too many draw backs. Bay to shallow, inlets sholes and gets shallow, and all that good stuff. If I did not have to cut 5 miles of bay, and watch the shoaling, it would be ok. IN Barnegat Baty you will run accross some shallow water, I think it would get expensive replacing these things everytime you hit bottom.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Oct 26th, '11, 23:21

we receive a 2011 silverton boat as part of a dealer option from factory. volvo/pod drive with joystick . not me but one of the salesman take it out first ride hit small log -------wack -----put a hurt on that forward prop very expensive -----boss man has dim view of pod will wholesale boat.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 27th, '11, 17:35

ZeroCavity wrote:Another possibility of having one engine :

http://www.boattest.com/resources/view_ ... ewsid=3230

Huh...thats quite the setup. I have wondered about that...although I would prefer diesel electric...if it wasn't in a small boat.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 28th, '11, 09:44

Tony,

In reading the story of the 38 install it didn't increase the draft on that boat, unless I read it wrong.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 28th, '11, 10:05

I think the problem of "hits" comes from the forward facing props with no deflecting element as some sort of protection. The only "protection" as I understand it is a break away mode on impact (sounds very expensive). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 28th, '11, 10:29

Volvo IPS props are forward-facing, Cummins/Merc are rearward. I read on the Cummins site that the skeg is designed to shear if it takes a big hit. Ostensibly to reduce repair costs to the pod. Tucking them into tunnels will reduce draft.

Call it an engineering experiment...single poddie with thruster on B31...must be some free government money we could apply to the task. It could be a B31.com project boat. Stripped down test mule.

I'll duck now...in anticipation of the replies...

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 28th, '11, 12:19

CamB25 wrote:Volvo IPS props are forward-facing, Cummins/Merc are rearward. I read on the Cummins site that the skeg is designed to shear if it takes a big hit. Ostensibly to reduce repair costs to the pod. Tucking them into tunnels will reduce draft.

Call it an engineering experiment...single poddie with thruster on B31...must be some free government money we could apply to the task. It could be a B31.com project boat. Stripped down test mule.

I'll duck now...in anticipation of the replies...

I'd love to hear how your going to layout a single engine box and cabin access in a fly bridge model.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Oct 28th, '11, 12:58

Peter:

Think outside the box -- outside the engine box that is! Instead of center entry, you could have the only B31 with a Port or Starboard entry, with the opposite side haveing a staircase to the bridge.

In fact, I see a lazyboy sitting on the single enginebox which is now sitting amidships.

No, I haven't been drinking at lunch, just tired from watching 11 innings last night!

Tom

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 28th, '11, 14:00

Think outside the box

Also might be able to slide everything towards the stern. Short jack shaft to the pod. Use the engine box as a base for the fighting chair, or other type of seating, ala Hunt 25/29 Surfhunters. I think the 5.9 is a relatively skinny engine design. Link to technical drawings:

http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/rec/po ... sb-59.html

The B31.com test mule could resemble the orignal Moppie that started all of this! Bare bones boat for pod/tunnel development. Sell the result as a cut in/drop in kit with 1000 page legal disclaimer.

Game Seven is tonight? My chinese made plasma smoked up the other night...I need to get to Costco soon or I'll be watching the game on a 30 year old 13" CRT...made in America and still works.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Oct 28th, '11, 14:45

Even better

http://www.boatingmag.com/engines/recyc ... r?page=0,3

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Oct 28th, '11, 14:54

oh my....the box is gone....

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Oct 28th, '11, 15:00

Here is the video! This would be great on a Bertram 31!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12daFlD2tOk

:twisted:

randall · Post by **randall** » Oct 28th, '11, 17:31

um...why not just make the boat 3 feet longer and install an outdrive? absurd.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 28th, '11, 18:03

Don't you wish Steve Jobs designed boats? He would have fired all these jackasses on day one.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 28th, '11, 18:22

First I can't spell. I spoke to a marine arcitect and he said all boats that have engines mounted on an added peice off the stern was because the boat was not desind right for that power. Putting pods on a 31 Bert is stupid. First, pods dont work for very long. If you think they do you must be selling them or been drinking heavy. ( Spend some time in a yard talking to people who work on boats for 5 mins and you would know how they don't work) Second, if you want pods then you should buy a tug boat, or some other boat. "Pods", you would be better off trying to remake the wheel. Just my 2 cents.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Oct 28th, '11, 18:57

Pods are what they are Portable On Demand Storage -- that is the only good POD

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 28th, '11, 20:06

randall wrote:um...why not just make the boat 3 feet longer and install an outdrive? absurd.

Yeah that armstrong bracket with a motor built into it brilliant idea. That may be the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 28th, '11, 20:40

Try to land a big eye with that thing hanging off the stern.

bertram31.com

Radical idea? or pure genius?

Radical idea? or pure genius?

Radical idea

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