Coating gas tanks to prevent ethanol damage?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » May 24th, '11, 16:36

There is a guy in the building where I am working on "Phoenix" who owns 3 Bertram 20s. He is presently rebuilding the second hull, which he says was unused for at least 15 years. He has removed the 50 gal fiberglas gas tank, cut the top away, and cleaned out the amazing amount of crud that was inside the tank. He told me today he is doing all this work so he can coat the inside of the tank with epoxy to prevent damages from gasoline that contains ethanol. I told him that as far as I knew epoxy wouldn't stop ethanol problems and would probably dissolve or decompose itself and cause serious damage to his engine.

He seems to think I am full of BS, so I said I would ask those of you who have researched the fiberglas/ethanol issue to provide me with your comments about his plans. Anyone want to offer comments.. please?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » May 24th, '11, 17:23

I think both Raybo and Capt. Pat has commented on this. What I remember is that it was way to much work (Raybo redid a tank I think), and that an amateur may not have much success.

Try this:

http://www.bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopi ... 44babb306d

After reading through this stuff, it wasn't even close for me--new tank.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 24th, '11, 17:29

Alcohol will disolve epoxy, probably faster than polyester....

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 24th, '11, 18:51

Give him the link to the ethanol section here on the site.

Let him read and decide for himself...or tell him to call the "Epoxy" manufactureer and let him pose the compatability question to them.

For me...after having to rebuild the top of two motors because of that resin dissolving corn juice its a no-brainer. But thats my opinion and I gave up arguing for lent...

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 24th, '11, 19:03

The baffles alone should take him weeks and the ethanol will find a spot he missed and the destruction begins.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » May 24th, '11, 19:19

I know West does not work. George D. Redid a tank with West and it still dissolved.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » May 24th, '11, 20:27

Needs new tank!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » May 25th, '11, 05:55

there are polyester products he can use, but its not a easy project no matter what he uses. The risk for failure due to procedure is too great when you consider the labor involved.

I cringe when I have to line tanks, but on some boats its much more difficult to install aluminum and these boats always seem to surface when I could use another job in the yard so I take them in.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 25th, '11, 08:19

There are some tank lining coatings that claim to be ethanol proof, like the one from POR-15. How long it will work, who knows. They would work better than epoxy.

http://www.por15.com/US-STANDARD-TANK-S ... tinfo/TSG/

Allan Childers · Post by **Allan Childers** » May 25th, '11, 14:57

Rawleigh wrote:There are some tank lining coatings that claim to be ethanol proof, like the one from POR-15. How long it will work, who knows. They would work better than epoxy.

http://www.por15.com/US-STANDARD-TANK-S ... tinfo/TSG/

Been there tried that... waste of time and effort. I built a sweet little Cafe bike a few years ago with a fiberglass tank. After the inside of the tank dissolved the first time I cut it apart and used a polyimide epoxy... that failed. Then I tried using that POR-15 stuff after cutting the tank apart the second time. It didn't take long for that to fail either. The guy I sold the bike to cut the tank apart and tried coating the whole inside with JB-Weld... that didn't work.

Fiberglass + Ethanol = Shoveling $hit against the tide

Before I started messing around with mobile phones I designed mechanics for fluid handling automation. Ethanol is some pretty nasty stuff to deal with. The only materials that worked were 316 Stainless, HARD anodized Aluminum, HDPE, Teflon, etc.

If it were me (and $$$$ was no object), stainless tank with at least one large ATL/Fuel Safe style filler plate. Large enough openings that if you had to clean it out you could without taking the tank apart.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 25th, '11, 15:40

Well there you have it!!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » May 25th, '11, 15:59

the tanks in the ground are fiberglass, there are resins that are safe to use.
The labor isnt worth it

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 25th, '11, 17:15

Wonder if those tanks in the ground will be able to handle E-15 if they dictate it. Wonder what kind of tanks are being used for those places selling E-85 for the flex-fuel cars. All I know is I called Mercruiser on a brand new 3.0's warrantee if E-15 was forced on us, and was told "all bets are off".

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 25th, '11, 17:34

I'd go back and tell the guy you were sorry for the wrong advice and he's headed in the right direction and wish him luck.

When you next see him tearing his engine down, walk over and give him a big smile and say, I guess I was right after all.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » May 25th, '11, 19:52

I sat today with the guy with the tank, and tried to explain the whole ethanol deal. He is firmly convinced there is a way to coat the tank inside surfaces. I gave him the POR15 web site address and told him what I would do (new tank!) I also told him to contact the manufacturer of whatever material he will use and ask if their product is recommended for his problem.

He will be bringing one of his B20s to the rendevous on the 4th.. he might ask you guys for advice.

Today I asked a guy who does a lot of repair work on local boats.. he says "everybody around here is just recoating with epoxy".. but since the ethanol issue only hit here a year or so ago there is no long term history. I suspect somebody who thought he knew what he was doing used epoxy, then another guy heard about it and said so and so used epoxy, then somebody else said epoxy is what everybody is using.. etc, etc, and today everybody believes epoxy is the absolute best thing to use. You know how things fly around marinas. Rumors become fact after the third repeat.

Thanks everyone for your responses.. I was pretty sure what they would be, but I wanted to be able to tell the guy what you all said when I asked the question here.

I tried to tell my guy what I would do, and told him about what happened to engines when foreign material from the tank got dissolved in the gas and ran through the engine. I gave him my best shot. Now I will go back to sanding my boat!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 25th, '11, 21:25

"Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind's made up!" He's not going to be happy if he brings up that subject at the Rendezvous.

Allan Childers · Post by **Allan Childers** » May 26th, '11, 12:13

walterk wrote:Wonder if those tanks in the ground will be able to handle E-15 if they dictate it. Wonder what kind of tanks are being used for those places selling E-85 for the flex-fuel cars. All I know is I called Mercruiser on a brand new 3.0's warrantee if E-15 was forced on us, and was told "all bets are off".

It would have to be TFE based coating or maybe roto-molding polyethylene on the inside. Semi-educated guess.

Again, at my previous job I work with a few big name adhesive manufacturers on a assembly where I was gluing glass to hard anodized aluminum. This assy was filled constantly filled with ethanol and only lasted a few days before the bond failed and leaked. When the best engineers at Loc-tite can't figure out how to keep something glued together it's time to look for a different solution.

I would imagine the fuel delivery on a new Honda, Yamaha, etc. O/B is all TFE or stainless based like any car nowadays. I haven't heard of any issues with Flex-Fuel cars/trucks yet. I wonder what they are worrying about...

Larger fuel capacity in boats and it sits around longer in a humid environment. Lots of water in fuel = corrosion of injectors?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 26th, '11, 14:39

he might ask you guys for advice

OOH OOH, tell him to come see me for advice.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 26th, '11, 15:08

Even if you do find a materail that will hold up to our lovely 10% Corn Juice...

--how well will it adhere to a tank that had gasoline in it...fiberglass is porous.

--if it holds up to 10% Corn Juice and Adheres well to the tank...if Corn Juice Fuel get a hit of water that takes it past it's Saturation Point you will get Phase Seperation where the Alcohol and Water Seperate from the gasoline and drop to the bottom of the tank creating a higher % of Alcohol...how does the materail hold up to higher Alcohol %...I know Aluminum will not like it.

I'd feel better about installing a fuel bladder within the tank...

I'm sure he'll get an earfull of advice at Greenport,,, but not sure why he would ask as he seems to be in the know.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 26th, '11, 15:20

I'm sure he'll get an earfull of advice at Greenport,,, but not sure why he would ask as he seems to be in the know.

Not Greenport, but N. Carolina... But you got the second part right.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 26th, '11, 15:23

sim wrote:he seems to be in the know.

The teacher said, "Let's begin by reviewing some American History. Who
said 'Give me Liberty , or give me Death'?"

She saw a sea of blank faces, except for Little Johnny a bright foreign
exchange student from Japan, who had his hand up: 'Patrick Henry,
1775' he said.

'Very good!'

Who said, 'Government of the People, by the People, for the People,
shall not perish from the Earth?'

Again, no response except from Little Johnny, 'Abraham Lincoln, 1863'.

'Excellent!', said the teacher continuing, 'let's try one a bit more
difficult...'

Who said, 'Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do
for your country?'

Once again, Johnny's was the only hand in the air and he said; 'John F.
Kennedy, 1961'.

The teacher snapped at the class, 'Class, you should be ashamed of
yourselves, Little Johnny isn't from this country and he knows more
about our history than you do.'

She heard a loud whisper: 'F--- the Japs,'

'Who said that? I want to know right now!' she angrily demanded.

Little Johnny put his hand up, 'General MacArthur, 1945.'

At that point, a student in the back said, 'I'm gonna puke.'

The teacher glares around and asks, 'All right!!! Now who said that!?'

Again, Little Johnny says, 'George Bush to the Japanese Prime Minister,
1991.'

Now furious, another student yells, 'Oh yeah? Su-- this!'

Little Johnny jumps out of his chair waving his hand and shouts to the
teacher , 'Bill Clinton, to Monica Lewinsky, 1997!'

Now with almost mob hysteria someone said, 'You little shit. If you say
anything else, I'll kill you.'

Little Johnny frantically yells at the top of his voice, 'Michael
Jackson to the child witnesses testifying against him, 2004.'

The teacher fainted.

As the class gathered around the teacher on the floor, someone said, 'Oh
shit, We're screwed!'

Little Johnny said quietly, 'the American people, November 4, 2008.'

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Allan Childers · Post by **Allan Childers** » May 26th, '11, 15:32

sim wrote:I'd feel better about installing a fuel bladder within the tank...

Race buddy runs E85R in their ALMS LMP1 car. ATL has a special bladder for E85R as well as the insert foam (which is $$$$$$). All this and you still need to completly drain the cell at the end of every day.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » May 29th, '11, 04:47

If it were me (and $$$$ was no object), stainless tank with at least one large ATL/Fuel Safe style filler plate. Large enough openings that if you had to clean it out you could without taking the tank apart.

A good idea, but it turns out that isn't so easy either. A while back there was a lot of posting re: stainless tanks and regs. I don't think anyone ever got difinitive answers about the regulations, but what it boils down to is most fabricators won't make you a stainless fuel tank because the regs are at best murky.

As far as I was able to gleen, and I'm definatly NOT 100% clear on this, SST fuel tanks are not permitted for any boat that will be used for commercial-passenger or charter. Next there is some confusion re: the Diesel vs. gas thing. SST may not be reg for ANY gas tank, but OK for some Diesel appliactions. So ironicly the Coasties themseves may have some stainless tanks in their vessles. But trying to get a stainless tank built by a reputable fabricator of marine fuel tanks for your Bert is a bear.

Next, a cleanout plate on the top of the tank may NOT be allowed for gasoline, but definatley IS allowed for Diesel. Nevermind that every single one of our fiberglass tanks essentially had one.

Of course for Diesel tanks you need fuel returns, and it costs so little to have them addded when you fab any gas tank you may as well include them and just cap them off.... and if you do that it will look just like a Diesel tank,.... so if you want a clean out plate you simply buy (or have built) a Diesel fuel tank, not a gasoline tank.... and IF you are buying Diesel tank and you look long and hard you probably will find a fabricator who will build you a Diesel fuel tank out of stainless steel....with a cleanout plate... and fuel returns...

Then you could re-purpose that tank to put it in a gasser.... but that implies you do the installation work yourself because no yard is going to take the liability hit..... Of course you must personally accept the responsibility of using the tank for a purpose for which it was never intended.

BTW epoxy will dissolve with ethanol in no time. Even faster than polyester.

Peter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 29th, '11, 08:49

SS is okay, but there are fewer SS Marine Fuel Tank builders around.

It may be the best choice...but I am one of those who are not quite convinced as I deal with several fabricators who are absoultely fantastic. I would take their non-Coast Guard Approved Tank over ANY Approved Tank. They would not build me a SS Fuel Tank, not for gasoline anyway. No "if" "ands" or "buts".
Alum, no problem. Steel, no problem...but SS they just said no. They gave a list of reasons, many which I have heard before, all where addressed by the SS tank builders...but being tossed between the two I went Alum and went up several thicknesses, Coal Tar Coated the thing Put it in best I could, crossed my fingers and hoped I'd never see the tank out of the boat again.

But, this guy is not choosing between tanks, he's recoating his. I guess it could be done as Raybo does it. Most things can if you throw enough money ant time at it..but for me...a gas tank is not the job to "Wing It" and learn on...if your a Pro and know what your doing...that's one thing, if you have a Pro to walk you thru it that is another...

whatever...

Guy in my marina had an Alum tank fail last year,,,had to pull motors and still cut hole in side of boat. Every one told him to to do the other side... at the very least pull and check Tank. Nope he would have non of that,,,did the one side only. I know the initial estimate was $50,000 for the job.

He got yanked last week as the other tank sprung a leak and was pumping diesel fuel overboard. Semi-luckly his bud was next boat over and saw it, immediately shutting the pump, called mechanic over and they towed the boat to the well for haul out.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » May 31st, '11, 11:47

the bladders are expensive, very expensive actually. More expensive then a new tank. You would still have to cut the top and the baffles out of the factory tank and that in itself is no easy task at all, grind it smooth to create a friendly environment for the bladder to live in

Stainless I have always heard mixed reasons, and even so far as to hear the tanks must be cylindrical.
I do have a 31 here right now that has a stainless tank and to be honest I was hesitant on installing it, its very heavy and just looks like it would be much easier for a weld to fail over a alum tank.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 1st, '11, 15:26

Raybo Marine NY wrote:the bladders are expensive, very expensive actually. More expensive then a new tank. You would still have to cut the top and the baffles out of the factory tank and that in itself is no easy task at all, grind it smooth to create a friendly environment for the bladder to live in

Nah, just cut the top off tank and toss bladder in...

...and if you should sink, just move floor out of the way and the tank makes a nice life raft with the top cut off.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Aug 3rd, '11, 16:53

Know this is an old topic just ran across it and thought i'd throw in my 2 cents haha.

Relining the tank can be done. I did it. I choose this way out of need not want. Financially wasnt able to afford a new tank so i looked at relining.

One thing going for me was the tank never had ethanol in it and it had gelcoat on the inside. So i sandblasted the inside of thak until i had a good surface to ahere to.

I then started laying in cloth and resin to build the wall thickness back up. I purchased vinylester resin the same stuff they're making the new tanks out of. It took around 7-8 gallons to do the tank and seal the lid back on. A 5 gallon bucket of resin was less than 200 bucks so all the materials used to redo tank was less than 800 dollars. Far less than other options.

As far as baffles i remade them out of aluminum and had them irridited to help with corrosion. Also i left the flanges off that the originals used to rivet to the tank. Reason for this if I drilled into the tank to rivet like the originals were i had no way to ensure gas wouldnt get past and find the old tank. So i bought frp vinylester angle from mcmaster carr and bedded them to the side of the tank so no holes were drilled to tank. Then i riveted the baffles to the angles.

I did have to cut three access holes into the top of the tank. I needed them so i could cut the lid from the old baffles and to rivet baffles to the angles. I used .25 aluminum plate to cover the hole and also used an aluminum nutplate ring for the inside. So now i also have an inspection plate so that i can easily keep an eye on things. I know some of you may look down on my decision but i truly felt like it was my best option and if you're not afraid of a little work and you have a good tank to start with it may be your best option too. haha

btw i have plenty of pictures if anyones interested

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 3rd, '11, 20:15

Just an update to let you all know what the guy I started this string about did. Seeing his tank on his worktable this afternoon reminded me to close out this string as far as he is concerned.

He did as I said he was going to do...

He has coated the interior of the tank surface (but not the baffles) with two coats of clear brushed on epoxy. I am not sure how he plans to reattach the top, which he cut off. He told me a while ago that "everybody is doing this".. and I did check with one boat savvy guy who agreed, so now it is wait and see.

Time will tell!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 3rd, '11, 20:52

Only 2 coats?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 3rd, '11, 23:09

I believe so. He hasn't come in this week so I will ask him the next time I see him.

34Hatt · Post by **34Hatt** » Aug 4th, '11, 09:21

You can lead the Horse to water but can't make him Drink!

He is Screwed!

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Aug 4th, '11, 14:48

heres a pic i have of lid glassed back down dont know how that guys gonna be able to do it without cutting access holes. I used thickened resin and cloth along the seam on the inside too.

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Coating gas tanks to prevent ethanol damage?

Coating gas tanks to prevent ethanol damage?

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