31 with Yammie350s

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 12th, '10, 21:40

I just happened to be looking through Boating magazine at Target with the wife shopping and noticed this write-up on a Bertram31 converted to Yamaha 350 outboards. Included is a head to head fuel burn and top speed chart. Thought it to be interesting reading!
http://www.boatingmag.com/engines/recycle-reuse-repower

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 12th, '10, 22:51

Itâ€™s little, but itâ€™s quite a showpiece,â€ she says.

does anything else need to be said :)

ok what is a yanmar 110?
and do cummins get similar numbers?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 13th, '10, 06:53

Apparently shallow water cruising is impotent to them. Couldn't keep it behind thier house without it.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '10, 07:52

All I know is I want his old 454's if he was getting 2.18MPG with them..even at a 17.4mph Cruise that's pretty damm good...I'd even take the 6L EFI Gas Engines which cruise at 23mph and get 2.65MPG With economy like that who would ever go diesel?

I guess Yanmar made new Powerplants for these guys...when I had looked years ago, I think I was looking at the Yanmar "210's" the lil'4 bangers.

Unless maybe...just maybe the magazine got some information incorrect. Really makes you wonder how much you can believe the "Written Word".

It's not for me...but I can understand why they like it.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 13th, '10, 08:03

sim
i have the 230 yanmars 4 bangers, at appox 2800 rpm or appox 20 knots iam burning appox 6 gal per engine per hr

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '10, 08:28

cwj,
Sorry it was my attempt at tongue in cheek humor. According to the chart given in that article...his old 454's had better burn then your motors.

I believe your getting about 1.76MPG with your 230hp motors

The "110" diesel in the article gets 3.27mpg????

The 454's get 2.18mpg ....ahhh ....my bad.... your statement of "per engine" just clicked in....it's per engine...I just figure, as you need two engines to go, you calculate everything based on two motors running at cruise. I see my Flowscan showing 11gph....I'm thinking 22gph.

So the 454's are getting 1.09mpg at slow cruise....I can sort of believe that.

I think I'll grab another cup of coffee now.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 13th, '10, 08:40

Yup, I read the article. Not terrible looking and i wish they had more interior shots etc.

but the fuel burn #'s have to be horribly wrong...

D

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 13th, '10, 08:40

$150,000 on the repower alone, right?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 13th, '10, 09:13

The numbers do not seem to make sense. If the 454s are getting 2 per engine or 1 total. Then the yanmar 315s should be showing better numbers. Must be an error somewhere

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 13th, '10, 10:16

My Yanmar 315s burn 10.6 a side at 3400rpm 28.9 knts with a full load on.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 13th, '10, 10:25

I knew that would get you started when I saw those numbers too! The 6.0Ls look decent, wonder were they got there numbers from, hmmm.. Another different strokes for different folks, but man do those outboards suck fuel. Just amagine if they couldn't do that speed/rpm the outboards need and had to throttle back and lug them, say, any kind of sea more than 2ft? The install looks well thought out for there use though I thought, can't amagine the cost when all is said and done!!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '10, 10:50

Look at the price of even a Blubberliner in the 31' range...the cost of redoing a 31...even with the outboards start to make sense. Now carry that over to a Quality 31' boat and the numbers don't seem all that far off.

But 150 grand to stick two chunks of Alum off the back off a boat....LOL. Hey they are happy....guess that all that matters.

I gotta show you guys a shot of what someone did at our marina...5,000 to hang a Bow-thruster off the bow of his 26' IO Maxum boat. Yes I said hang...it's not built in...it bolts onto the bow all open with blade exposed...just below the waterline at idle.

It takes all kind...but this guy is happy too...so what the hell...personally I think that much money should only be spent on a nice set of Stand up Rods with 2 speed reels and some tackle...

http://sideshift.com/shop/category.php?id_category=2

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 13th, '10, 11:02

sim wrote:Hey they are happy....guess that all that matters.

Yup, but not for me. I'd like to see more shots of the wider FB. From the side it looks OK. I was wondering about the fuel burn numbers, but over the years the only numbers I trust are ones that come from guys here anyway...

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 13th, '10, 13:01

Those fuel burn numbers with the 350 Yamahas are not so bad compared to the 454s real burn numbers.

I suspect that the $150k repower cost is due to dropping the boat off at the dealer and saying make it happen. The street price on those engines is roughly $20k each and the bracket/glasswork could be roughly another $20k ($60k total?????).

It just kills me how off some of their numbers are so far off the mark. Half the stuff you read in the magazine is wrong. Common rail Yanmars doing 44mph?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '10, 13:05

captbone wrote: Common rail Yanmars doing 44mph?

That's going downhill...

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 13th, '10, 13:48

Sonny Middleton's Dog River Marine in Mobile is not for the thin of wallet. You could spend $150k on an oil change there. The whole idea of screwing up a perfectly good B31 FBC with outboard motors is just plain ole nuts.....now Kipp's deal with a center console made from a burned up boat is a different story.

And as you guys have pointed out, the numbers are bogus as hell....if there is any group of people who know what the real numbers are in a B31 with virtually any engine set up, it be'z da Faithful. I respectfully call bullshit on the whole deal.

UV

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 13th, '10, 14:40

Carl wrote:hang a Bow-thruster off the bow of his 26' IO Maxum boat.

SideShift wrote:Sideshift external bow thrusters give you the control to dock your boat like a pro.

ROFLMFAO

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 13th, '10, 15:43

How much of this is completely wrong?

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 13th, '10, 16:04

Well, I'd bet you a dollar to a donut that the numbers are not actual, observed, in real life numbers, but rather taken from a chart somewhere. We Faithful know that inboard b31s do not run in the 40s, no matter what kind of power is applied....or not for long, anyway. Even with prop pockets. And B31s do not get 2 mpg at cruise with big block gas V8s....this site has the largest collective pool of knowledge about Bertram 31s anywhere in the world, period, and these numbers, in my respectful view, are just fluff to sall magazines.

UV

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '10, 17:05

captbone wrote:How much of this is completely wrong?

For the gassers I believe it's the MPG PER engine...or the guys been sniffing too many fumes.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 13th, '10, 17:19

And it's mpg not nmpg.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 13th, '10, 17:50

Maybe written sitting at a computer, looking at manufacturers' spec sheets for various engines, then plugging in the reported results from the owners of the outboard boat...who knows? But obviously not paying attention to detail - i.e. the single engine numbers passed off as for twins, the speeds, and ignoring the real world that's been established for our boats by the Faithful since ....since, gee, how 'bout 1961? That's pushing 50 frickin' years in just a few weeks, Faithful...what we gonna do for the 50th? I suggest we all get together at David's house in PR and drink a toast to the Best Boat Ever Built. I'll bring the chips.......

yo Fren'

UV

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 13th, '10, 19:28

They're just bad charts. I couldn't care less what fuel burn is at WOT. I'd also like a somewhat common cruise speed to get fuel burn off of. How about at 20 knts and 25 knts? As is, the charts don't really allow for any meaningful comparison from the get go. I don't know about the other power in B31s, but I'm pretty sure my 454s burn more fuel than claimed on the chart. I don't believe that I could get 2.18 mpg or whatever it says, but I've never cruised at 17.4 mph either. I think I get about half that--probably a little worse. And, 454s should be propped for WOT at 4200 to 4400--not 4000. So the 454 numbers are off a slightly overpropped boat.That's just the 454s off the top of my head. What are 110 Yanmars anyway?

That said, as long as the guy is happy, who cares? If the numbers on the OBs are accurate, they're pretty good rather than bad. Getting almost 1.3 or nmpg out of a B31 FBC at 28 knots isn't bad. I would've liked to see accurate numbers on a 6.0 gasser though. I can get accurate numbers on just about any other combo from the guys here that really know their boats.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 13th, '10, 23:49

we do this every damm day 250/300/350 yamaha are our business those numbers are off the wall like factory charts. yamaha 350 cost 27,500 each plus tax plus counter rotation charge and tie bracket for steering.with bracket to go on plane same draft 3' exact numbers per 50 examples 99 gallons a hour for first 10 hours at wot. next 10 hours drops to 85 gph this is in a much sleeker everglades . these are exact numbers off computor . needless to say even mentioning these numbers is ridiculous so you never consider wot. when speaking outboards ., just a meaningless speed 46mph that nobody could possibly afford these days. so lets talk reality like 28mph and compare with twin 240hp yanmar at same speed!!!dug,mike give us your numbers .

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Dec 14th, '10, 08:05

With 230 Yanmars I'm at 3100 rpm, 23.5 knots, 13.5 gph total.

That's 1.7 kmpg.

With the 454's I was at 3000 rpm (right before secondaries opened), 18 knots, 25.5 gph total.

That's 0.7 kmpg.

If the secondaries ever opened, a shark fishing trip would have used a tank of fuel......

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 14th, '10, 08:42

The fuel burn numbers seem to be correct or pretty close for the 350hp Yamahas.

Here is a bigger and heavier boat that would be a good comparision.

It gets 1.22 mpg at 25mph

And the twins burn 71 gph total at WOT.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/prod ... 350txr.pdf

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 14th, '10, 09:12

As expected, my numbers pretty much exactly mirror Mikes.

The two big plus's that the Yamaha's offer are the shallow draft capability and the ability to trim the nose up achieving what Bob Lico loves about the Bow Proud attitude and running angle.

The rest you could not convince me of the benefits of, beyond his personal happiness and satisfaction with the work he commissioned. And that ultimately is what matters. (The owner of the boat that is...)

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 14th, '10, 09:57

dug i have been in trouble with that theory more than i like to think. the shallow draft theory will get you in trouble real quick. think of a lever the props under a conventional 31 are about a foot or so from the stern now the props off that bracket plus the width of the outdrive put the actual props 4' back from oringinal location.when you put that lady up you will draft the same as inboards . so get a grip you still have to stay in buoy line same as inboard version. you want to venture in shallow water get a flats boat. the grady white shown above is actually 31' without bow pulpit . we have three at this location and i both drive and fish on one . after we acid etch primer the bottom and two coats of bottom paint with lift raft and all the other stuff we cannot come anyware near posted numbers plus i normally run it at 28 to 30 mph.forget these charts real life situation fishing for bass with birds flying overhead going from one area to another the outboards with less torque then your yanmars require the driver to put down the thottle to chase ,at the end of day i burn a hell of alot more then my 31 with cummins.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 14th, '10, 10:50

I have no idea how deep those chunks of Alum hang down in the water when running...but with OB's you can can trim/raise the motors up at slow speeds...try that with straight inboards.

With my 440's I stay in the .9mpg range. That's light on fuel with little load at an EZ 17knot cruise. Push it or load her up with fuel...I try not to look, but I know I'll dip down in the .7-.8 range.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 14th, '10, 11:21

The trimming of the outboards is a great key feature of that system. The article states the boat is much drier because of the bow proud attitude of the vessel.

Those 350s Yamahas are beasts in terms of torque.

It gets that 33ft Grady White to 50 miles per hours. The Grady White is 35'10" with pulpit and 33'6" without and 14,010 lbs as tested.

Whats even more impressive is the 36ft Express Grady White.
This boat is 20,000 lbs as tested with only twin 350hp. This boat is 39'3" with the pulpit and 36'7" without and hits 45mph. It gets .93 mpg at cruise and burns 67 gph at WOT.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/prod ... 350tur.pdf

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 14th, '10, 11:44

Bob, I always like the delicate and beatin around the bush way of making the point about you. Sure does get ones attention, thanks!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 14th, '10, 11:50

Bob, I never meant higher speeds. Also, depending where they keep it, and how the tides are, it may mean the difference between keeping in front of thier house and not.

My cousin lives on a marsh. At high tide he has well over 7 feet of water at his dock. At low tide, nothing, zilch, nada for water. In that case, an inboard would not work. Outboards only.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 14th, '10, 11:55

Bone, yer gonna hang one of them on yer B25 aint ya?
Might need to put bolster seats on the FB.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 14th, '10, 12:08

nah, I will wait til I find a 31 project for the 350hp OB.

I love the outboard because I can cut through snake hill channel and shave 30 minutes off my commute to the inlet. The best part of the outboards is if you misjudge and bump the sandbar, you simply trim up and keep going. No harm, no foul.

There are some places in this country where bumping bottom is every day life.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 14th, '10, 13:19

captbone wrote: I love the outboard because I can cut through snake hill channel and shave 30 minutes off my commute to the inlet.

That is exactly what I was thinking about. That guy seems to love his boat, more power to him. Isn't that what makes horse races?

Russ Pagels · Post by **Russ Pagels** » Dec 14th, '10, 14:50

Captbone, went through snake hill for many years ,thinking that a B31 might be a little big for that channel. got distracted while running my stieger 25 and ran it up on the south bar...Russ

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 14th, '10, 15:15

Russ

I agree it can get a little tight just east of the barge in snake hill but with the right tide and slowing down to cross the bar you still can save a ton of time and it is very much possible in a large OB boat. Even if you have to go slow and trim up you can still cross at low tide. The difference in run time is huge when you can shave 20 minutes off each way and have the luxury of sneaking out of the channel every now and then.

My point is there are many places like that (Snake Hill, Steamboat, Amity Channel) all over the East Coast were the forgiving nature of OBs is welcome and where inboards would never roam.

Each power choice has its ups and its downs.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 14th, '10, 15:31

I also frequent snake hill. Although with my flats boat i can run over any of those bars at any tide as long as you cant see exposed sand. Generally speaking any deep vee boat is going to have trouble with that area at low tide. There is a reason the boat US guy drops anchor back there on the weekends. Only the saltiest locals run snake hill in anything over 20 feet.

Tons of seals on that steel barge in the spring too. I once chased a 6 foot thresher around for 3 hours with my fly rod back there but couldnt get him to bite.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 14th, '10, 16:01

Pete - them seals any good to eat?

UV

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 14th, '10, 16:24

That is something i never considered. They are protected under the marine mammal protection act.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Dec 14th, '10, 16:44

Yeah right.....

Like the Bald Eagle and Brown Pelican.

First you make a roux.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 14th, '10, 16:56

Then slow cook on a spit all day with low heat. Backpack sprayer filled with beer. Spray every ten mins or so. Serves alot.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 14th, '10, 17:00

That's what I figured, but that law probably don't apply at night? Thanks, Brew, sorta like doing a couchon du lait, hang 'em from a swing set and let the kids poke 'em to turn slowly. hmmmmm, stuffed with garlic and boudin rouge......

UV

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 14th, '10, 18:46

Peter- I run my 25' Hydra Sport through there all the time. I ran the 32' Regulator through only once, and I was sweating when I did that- but it was a very high tide.

UV- slow cook hanging like that and the skin gets nice and crispy with all that tasty blubber right in side- just like on a nice couchon.

I mean I would imagine it gets that way.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 14th, '10, 20:01

ive seen more this year then any other, also they seem to arriving sooner. the 1st week in nov i had 3 of them looking at me in the inlet

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 14th, '10, 21:12

i had to move a boat today so while there i ask the outboard techs. ; each 350hp yamaha will use 10% of hp at cruise. 32 everglades ex uses 35 gallons per hour x 2 (70gph) at cruise of 30mph .this is nomal gear bottom paint and broken in with 50hours or more.we have a 36' grady with triple 350hp and the third motor definitly helps economy because the triple set up uses 99gph on a 36' grady.very well built i must say.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 14th, '10, 21:39

Its 10% of there HP at WOT.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 14th, '10, 21:42

Bob-

Are you sure about those numbers? A Yamaha 350 burns 35 gph at normal cruise rpm (whatever that is)? Sound awful high. 99 gph for a 36 Grady at cruise?

John

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 14th, '10, 22:26

Capt.
I need and estimate ASAP to hang one of those bow thrusters on my boat. please!

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Dec 14th, '10, 22:57

I ran a 33 GW w t/250's and it burned over 50 GPH at 40+mph. I still laugh all that money for a boat with twin or tripple outboards and they have a small deisel generator for A/C. The boat does not handle worth a dam with OB vs IB. my 2 cents

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