Running Gear - upgrades/maintenence

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Nov 22nd, '10, 04:35

Capt Pat says double clamp every hose connection under the water line, use quality hose clamps{t bolt} I double clamp all intake hose connections and exhaust, whether below or above, lots of water moving thru those hoses, whether under pressure or suction

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Nov 22nd, '10, 08:53

Double hose clamps are right. Only additional info I would add is to ensure that the clamps are opposing each other. So put them on, but have the screw thingy on one on the opposide side of the hose from the other.

D

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 22nd, '10, 09:30

yes the coasties want two clamps but in my case the boat was built for at least three generations .working on boats for 50 years tells you quite a bit, for instance the bilge pumps most beat "the bad luck systrom" .every time a bilge pump hose breaks it is always right after the double clamp! look closely you will see a collar on each bilge hose where it connects to the pump. next i use one titanium clamp rather then two cheap clamps whereby the second clamp rest on nothing because the outlet pipe is so short . next is a one way valve and finally all 6 bilge pumps exit under the gunnel next to stern on port and starboard . when that goes under the boat is sitting on the bottom. exhaust and raw water use special t- bar clamps on BARB bronze fittings.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Nov 22nd, '10, 11:03

If you can tackle a few projects on your own and have marina address the Running Gear as planned...you should be able to get her Seaworthy and ready to use without breaking the bank.

The original rudders...while not the best I have run 17 years with mine shes a 62. I troll all the time on a single motor sometimes with the aid of an auto pilot...other times without and other then docking or trying to push her hard I do not have a problem running on a single motor. Response of the wheel at cruise is lacking,,,I've run 50footers that will respond faster at cruise...but I'm only cruising 19mph so I really don't need sports car like steering. It's on my list of things to do...but pockets are only so deep.

Get boat safe and running then address what concerns you the most...it may be the lackluster steering...it may be the need for crash pumps...it may be new cushions for the Miss'es...it may be a new Flyrod...

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 22nd, '10, 11:18

Unfortunately i think rudders are off the list for the 2011 season.

Just paid the tax bill, documentation and registration. Got an estimate on a cockpit cover for the winter. And at this point i am getting some pricing on electrical expenses.

Without question i have to address the props and cutlass bearings in the spring. It makes sense to do the shaft logs and stuffing boxes. If my budget allows i will also consider the raw water intake / crash valves at that time. Id love to address everything that you all have suggested but Rome wasnt built in a day and budget will only go far. Im not one to extend myself.

If that means a season of inshore fishing and weekend trips to the beach that wont be disappointing. Keeping in mind the majority of my fishing is done on my flats boat already.

That doesnt mean i havent been keeping a list of all the suggestions and if anyone feels. I should reconsider my priorities that would be ok too.

Pete

cmccool · Post by **cmccool** » Nov 22nd, '10, 11:25

Hey Peter

If you can find someone who can weld bronze and not charge an arm and a leg, you can add onto your existing rudders and have oversized rudders for much less money. That is the route I went. Add 1" or 2" to the bottom and back and you are good to go.

One of the guys on the old B28 board knew how to weld and did his own for $150.

Cliff

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 22nd, '10, 11:32

i don`t want to create the wrong impression on coasties but it like one shirt fits all -----not real. recent years the blubliners compounded the bilge pump problem . they put plastic thru-holes 1" above water line in the cheap tape boot stripe ok now the cheap made in china clamp breaks or the hose splits right at the clamp point . rain comes down ,bilge pump just cirulates water and boat sinks to boot stripe the sea comes in at thru- hole thru broken pipe and down she goes or the thru hole rubs the dock and breaks .that is reality!!!! now knowing anything that can go wrong will go wrong at the worst possible time. you raise the thru hole to gunnel ,use a "hose cuff"on bilge hose available from hamilton marine and titanium hose clamps or at least primium 316 all ss made in USA.titanium clamps are avaluble from jamestown distributors. you can tighten chine clamps until they click that means the worm has skip in the slot--------junk you can use three still junk. i get special t-bar from diesel power services if anybody wants then i can find his source.

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Nov 24th, '10, 20:33

cmccool wrote:Hey Peter

If you can find someone who can weld bronze and not charge an arm and a leg, you can add onto your existing rudders and have oversized rudders for much less money. That is the route I went. Add 1" or 2" to the bottom and back and you are good to go.

One of the guys on the old B28 board knew how to weld and did his own for $150.

Cliff

I did the same thing! It was another situation where I did something after being told "it couldn't be done".

I cut strips from a bronze rudder that had a bent shaft that was given to me. I made 4 strips out of it and added a strip to the rear and bottom of each of my rudders.

It made a HUGE difference and I can steer over an engine and make a turn.

I MIG welded mine with Silicon Bronze wire and 100% Argon shielding gas.

They have been through 5 seasons and not a hitch.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 24th, '10, 21:11

Bob,

How long is that antenna, it seems to be at least the length of your riggers..

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 24th, '10, 23:23

the antenna is 23' . fantastic reception with icom- m 504 radio. the rupp tounament riggers are 27' total but are mounted lower on the boat so but are about the same height. all swing down for going under shennecock rr bridge across canal.

Capt Dick Dean · Post by **Capt Dick Dean** » Nov 25th, '10, 09:39

Hey, Pete. I live in Bay Shore. A lot of this work I have done. And my boat still runs good.

My cell is 631.678.8756

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 26th, '10, 06:23

Thanks Dick! I'll give you a shout when the boat is moved.

Pete

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 26th, '10, 10:47

peter that photo of phoenix is taken while the boat is hard over to port . look how the stern is "planted" in the water at 34knts .that is due to the rudders ,i would treat that project as a priority. the water breaks under the trailing edge of the side windows at all speeds above 21knts . the boat is absolutely dry ,so much so that when i come to a location to drift fish, i sit on the dry covering boards ,find it relaxing.that is done by shifting the weight and keeping all heavy items (like batteries) right down the centerline.bow proud is very important to boats charateristic in big seas as well as dry boat.we will discussed this later on in your new project .

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 26th, '10, 10:55

Bob do you have your batteries in the centerline of the boat just aft of the v berth? I think i saw a picture of someones boat that was set up that way.

My head is spinning a little with all this stuff as ive spent the past two weeks reading through all 99 pages of posts in the general discussion forum.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 26th, '10, 11:21

Nix... Too much weight forward of the engines. A properly loaded B31 will have 40% of it's weight forward of the forward engine bulkhead and 60% aft of the forward engine bulkhead. All weight should be concentrated on center line and spreading out, as evenly as possible, outboard.

I personally prefer the batteries to be center line and between the engines under the companionway.

Properly loaded, a B31 will run bow proud without tabs. Tabs can be useful for trim corrections and lowering the bow when needed.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 26th, '10, 12:23

Capt Pat, is this area for batteries centerline just aft of fwd engine bulkhead O.K. for the larger 8D batteries in a lidded custom box? I think I remember my father's 31 having them there but they were smaller batteries, I have the 8Ds. Thanks.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Nov 26th, '10, 14:22

Rocky-If that's what you have, fine. My question is, with gassers, why? I may get arguments on this, but it seems to be overkill. It's always good to have more rather than less, but in this case you also have more weight, more space used and tougher (fork lift?) installation and removal. I have 4D's installed in boxes outboard of my Cummins and with my mate can remove them by hand when they need replacement. I do have a set of deep cycle 12v in parallel in between my engines for "house batteries". Just a thought.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 26th, '10, 14:26

With gas engines, and even most small to medium sized diesels, you don't need those dinosaur 8Ds... But yes, they'll fit, just a tight squeeze. Not going to leave much room for other items like crash pumps.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 26th, '10, 16:00

peter do you remember as a teenager in high school you read how american built sailing ships that were the fastest in the world and sailed back anf forth to the orient . ships like the "cutty sark" were the pride of america. tremedous square footage of sail stabalize by ballast place down the centerline of the keel. capt. patrick was there ask him!! only kidding but that theory is the best for a 31 bertram . first of all it adversly effects roll . the weight down the center in the bilge IS the whole deal on centroid of gravity . the boat tends to right itself much quicker , next batteries must go in center just behind bulkhead-------no exceptions!!! no 8d and no 4d you are buying new batteries forget that ancient stuff now you use fiberglass matt one car battery size (2750) takes the place of 8d but no water,acid,acid fumes,back breaking weight mine are untouched for 10 years O maintenace. they also recharged twice as fast. i use one starboard engine, one port engine and two house and generator . all isolated . here is the photo the raw water intake,crash valve,bilge pump is next compatment towards stern.the batteries can be purchase wholesale in deer park . sealed cover is off for photo . box is made of interlocked (rabbited joint) pvc and glue cost about $10.00.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 26th, '10, 16:37

Thank you Capt Pat.Excellent Bob thanks, I'll rid of the 8Ds back to west marine. That's a great system there Bob, in my case the only problem with valves behind batteries are my bunks for the trailer. Pete you won't have that issue though.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 26th, '10, 17:53

sorry brother rocky i was referring to deer park long island right near peter`s boat, for you go to www.batterymart.com under odyssey size 2150.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 26th, '10, 21:41

Thats great advice some plumbing needs to be moved before i could that i believe the through hull for the head is there as well as the macerator and valve for the holding tank.

I can see why lots of planning needs to be done.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Nov 27th, '10, 08:49

Boat looks fantastic across the river. But tighten up that stern spring line!

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Nov 27th, '10, 09:46

Thanks the tide was really high when i tied it up. Ill be back down there at 1 today if you want to pop by and say hello.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 27th, '10, 20:53

pete on those batterys for a gasser two is enough . a 8d puts out 1100cca and these 2150 put out 1090cca but will put out over 3000 for 5 seconds for a ice cold diesel in winter months.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 27th, '10, 20:57

the over 3000cca is with the parallel switch engaged.that should be on your dashboard someware.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 16:28

Just revisiting this thread and reading through all the thoughtful comments. I'm now taking notes so I can have a plan.

I am planning on getting the boat over to the marina to come out of the water beginning of march.

At this point I am torn as to how far to take this project. Part of me says new shafts, engine mounts, stuffing boxes, shaft logs, cutlass bearings, props and rudders. Getting everything done right and not worry about it again. Also have to address the sw intake for the motors. If I go that route I wonder if going with 1.5 shafts makes sense even if I don't plan on going to diesel for 5 plus years?

The thoughts of repositioning the batteries in the centerline involves moving the holding tank (which is new) sw intake for the head and the macerator. It may make sense to not start working on rewiring the boat if the batteries are going to be moved and possibly move the SW intakes if I am doing this too.

I am willing to spend 5k and will go to 8k if I need to but no higher at this point.

Any thoughts?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 22nd, '10, 16:51

Is your present running gear non functional or in desperate need of replacement?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 17:01

Walter, the starboard prop needs to be replaced as do the cutlass bearings. There are vibrations in both port and starboard at lower RPMs, during the survey the thought was that the shafts may be bent slightly. Pulling the the shafts opens the can of worms.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 22nd, '10, 17:34

Pete - as to the vibration, start wtih the props as that's usually where it comes from...the shafts can be "miked" to check for bends so you won't pull a good shaft. Cutless bearings can usually be replaced by a skilled worker without pulling the shafts. Engines out of alignment will cause the shakes too. Start with the easy stuff and work toward the hard. Small, cheap steps.....start wtih the props...

UV

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 22nd, '10, 17:57

UV is right. Start with props. Use the boat and try not to spend any money unless you have to. As you start to understand her you will see what is next. Remember you may get forced to spend money to fix something that breaks. Just my 2 cents.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 22nd, '10, 18:45

My thoughts completely. The boat looks very well maintained. The prop can of course create vibrations. So can a bad cutlass bearing. I wouldn't pull off a pair of shafts without doing those first. Rudders? That's an improvement fairly easily made and you'll be glad you did. Your first season of running will tell you a lot about what your priorities are. You may be very pleasantly surprised. I know you won't compromise safety. Walter

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 19:22

The engines were realigned so it's not that. The shafts seem to be different lengths the starboard is shorter and barely fits the prop. There are also two different rudders.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 22nd, '10, 19:37

Two different rudders don't help handling. I would like to hear what others think about my theory that two different length shafts could also create a vibration. My question is, are the shafts different lengths or are the engines mounted in different positions on each side? The distance the forward face of the prop hub is to the the rear of the struts/cutlass bearing should be the same.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 20:02

That distance is the same. The difference is the threads stick past the prop after the nut and they don't onthe other prop. I don't have a picture and it was a few months since the boat was out of the water

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Dec 22nd, '10, 20:38

1 shaft
2 rudders
new engine beds

way more than 8k if your going to a yard

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 20:45

Why do you think I need new engine beds?

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Dec 22nd, '10, 21:02

Back to the props. As mentioned, I would start there and work my way backwards. Also, my 454s ran with 18x18 nibrals, no cup, and I got 4400 wot and a 20kt cruise at 26gph. I plan to be back at my boat around Jan 15 or so. I'll shoot you a message and see if we can get together.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 22nd, '10, 21:20

Sounds good Harv

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 23rd, '10, 09:52

step one go to the boat open the hatch and look at the coupling mounted on the end off shaft and bolted the the back of the gears. photo and post we will go from there.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 23rd, '10, 10:13

Bob are you saying where the shaft meets the tranny?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 23rd, '10, 10:22

Brewster Minton wrote:UV is right. Start with props. Use the boat and try not to spend any money unless you have to. As you start to understand her you will see what is next. Remember you may get forced to spend money to fix something that breaks. Just my 2 cents.

Great advice. And if you're forced to fix something, fix it right so the problem won't reappear, or bandaid until you can get it right. Don't waste time/money doing something halfway that you'll be redoing in a few years. You may be surprised how fast you can go through $8K.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 23rd, '10, 10:47

yes peter thats it. as jp indicated you cannot hand the keys to the boatyard and walk away!!!! i will walk you thru it but you will have to do some legwork.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 23rd, '10, 12:13

Thanks guys. I am off next week and will take some pictures. Any of you local guys who wouldn't mind popping down to the boat to take a look. Lunch would be on me.

You guys need to understand I have no experience with inboard motors. The only things I have any clue about is what I've read since I bought the boat. Even though I have 3 months before any of this happen I am trying to educate myself the best I can so I don't just hand the keys to the yard. I understand my budget isn't large and I just want to make sure I address things that are important.

While I'd love to drop in a set of cummins I realize that is not a reality anytime soon. So I want to get these 454s running the best I can so the boat is reliable. I also don't want to throw good money after bad so I want to address what needs attention. And hope to make sure I am not putting additional strain on anything that could be addressed before it becomes a problem.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 23rd, '10, 15:09

I know these aren't the best pictures. I will take more during the week but what am I looking for and what do I need to capture in a future photo?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 28th, '10, 22:58

peter both photo`s have the exhaust covering the shaft coupling. i need to see this as step one. trying to establish two piece split coupling or one piece. this will tell me break your hump or a walk in the park sliding back the shafts.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 29th, '10, 12:59

Two different length shafts is not uncommon or a problem.

Before going to a yard and telling them you want two new shafts, I'd make sure you need them. Pull the shaft and have them checked out. Most shops, like mine do not charge for checking. In a boat you can only tell if it is way out of straightness. You also cannot tell if the Bearing and Packing area are worn and out of spec or if the coupling is face is running true.

Several Yard Mechanics around here will go in and if they cannot pull the shaft in a few minutes, they pull out the SawZall and hack the end of shaft with coupling off. I cannot tell you how many perfectly Good Shafts have had to be replaced because they where just Hacked off.

If one shaft end appears different...it may be. Years back some shops went with a Chris Craft style shaft...same taper...but ran the threads all the way to the end and used a Castled Nut and Cotter pin to secure. I prefer a standard tapered end...but for the cost of a new shaft I'd stick with what you have...provided it is machined properly, not pitting, straight and not worn over specs at the stuffing box or Bearing Area

Distance from back of wheel to Strut Bearing should be about 1.5 times the shaft diameter, plus or minus half the diameter is okay.

It's also possible the Prop may be riding the key and not sitting all the way back on the taper...it would cause your vibration....could also be one of the tapers is wrong...at the Shaft or the Prop.

Could be you need shafts...but if you don't its money for another project or two or three....

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 29th, '10, 16:08

Thanks sim very helpful. I wen to the boat today no snow on it but a huge mound at the edge of the dock. I didn't bother digging my way in. Maybe by the weekend I can get some pictures of the coupling.

If I remember correctly one shaft had a cotter pin the other did not.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 30th, '10, 07:41

Ripping everything out and starting new is always an option...

Taking pictures of coupling..is nice. We all love pictures. I wouldn't spend too much time and effort trying to get pictures though. If you are removing shafts the couplings have to come off...and that's all we need to know now. I'd rather see pictures of the Shaft , Prop, Strut area...thats more telling.

If your thinking of going up a size or two as an upgrade for a diesel conversion, consider this. Depending on the motors and transmission you get it will require a different shaft length. If the shaft length you have is too long, no problem, you take shaft to a shop where they can cut and re-key to size then fit coupling for short money.
Now if your diesel conversion requires a longer shaft...no amount of cutting and re-keying will make it longer...so you'll be shelling out money for new shafts again.

See what you have to work with...if one or both are toast, then toss them or save as spares. That is unless you have unlimited funds to work with...then new is always nice.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 30th, '10, 09:51

Pete - since this is your first experience with straight inboard drive, relax some. It is incredibly simple vs. an outboard or I/O. Nothing underwater to leak oil out and water in, no gears underwater, no slip hubs on props. The straight inboard has worked for 200 years and is still the drive of choice for reliability.

My point is.......don'w worry too much about a little vibration, they all do it to some extent. Before you spend a dime, run the boat a good bit and get familiar with how it feels and sounds - that will give you a baseline to work from....KISS, and the enemy of good is better.

UV

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Running Gear - upgrades/maintenence

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