Fuel Ouestions

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Would like the input of B31.com participants - the most knowledgeable and practical boaters in the world.

Considering all the problems with E10 ethanol, and the looming possibility of E85 ethanol in the future, plus low sulfur diesel for those of us who kicked the gasoline habit, would it be worth a few cents more per gallon to buy fuel which already contains a complete additive package designed for your area that will do as much as anything available to mittigate fuel problems - sold by a marina or fuel dock that had to be certified by the fuel supplier as having clean tanks and equipment - and required to keep them that way?

Just musing.

[thuddddddd]

Time for you to start looking for crashed 08 trucks.
Thru all your issues?
Just another winter in paradise for me.
Thudddddd

[In Memory Walter K]

One of our Marinas already does that via Valvetech. Don't know if it does any good but that's what he claims. Presently, since we don't have the low-sulpher fuel yet and no one's been complaining, most have been basing their decisions on price. Walter

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Walter, do you have an idea of how much more per gallon he gets for Valvtect diesel? They are trying to expand into my area, don't know if the marinas here will go that route. Down here, we usually shop price, also, but curently only have two fuel docks to choose from, and they stay pretty close. In that situation, the guys using a lot of fuel try to get the best quality, and, of course, each fuel dock bad mouthes the other about water and trash in their fuel. I think pretty much everybody agrees we need to add osme sort of additive, even with the sulfur at 500 ppm - where it is supposed to stay for "off road" fuel.

[In Memory Walter K]

Mike-out our way (and probably everywhere else) this last season, price was the issue. Montauk Marine Basin, 631-668-5900 Carl Darenberg Jr. maintains their tanks/filters well, but has always been a bit higher than neighboring sources even before all this. Usually about 5¢ per gallon but this year one day made a difference as I am sure games were being played by everyone who sold any sort of fuel. I'm also pretty sure he's the only one out here that has that Valvtect system. Doesn't advertise it though and I wonder if anyone knows theres a difference. It seems to me that fuel quality is more of an issue for owners of big sportsfishermen to whom the cost of fuel is less of a problem. The smaller boats have smaller pockets and fuel costs were crippling. The gas guys died with $4.00+ plus ethanol laced fuel. It took a terrible toll on the inshore species as 50+ mile each way trips for Tuna became cost prohibitive for them. They stayed close to home. Much to my surprise Standyne and other diesel additives are not that easy to find and when you do, they're surprisingly expensive. Walter

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Walter, I've been researching a fuels article - mostly from the diesel aspect. While the old faithful Cummins 6B's aren't as picky as some engines, we occasionally have problems down here with fuel quality. I think I'd rather pay a little more at the dock than break down or limp home. Also one of the reasons I swapped my 500 series Racors for 900 series units.

Interestingly, on the Texas coast, the rage is long outboards with triple engines, or catamarans, and the guys are all into tuna fishing at rigs beginning at 100 miles from the jetties. The cost of gas hasn't slowed them down much yet, but next season may be different, after all the wives see the gas charges on the credit card statements!

[TailhookTom]

Walter:

Even though Stanadyne is here in CT and actually a client of mine -- they are VERY hard to find, and they rightfully protect their dealers -- they will not sell direct to me. However, H & L Diesel Injection in Deep River CT not only sells the small bottles, they sell the 5 Gallon pails. A couple of us at my marina bought the 5 gallon pail and then divided it up -- much cheaper than the small bottles. You can reach them at 860 - 526-5941. It might be worth checking out and getting a bulk order.

Tom

[Carl]

Two guys by me have triple outboards, their thought is "Yeah we burn 70gph but we cruise 70+ knots, still a gpm. Plus they are fishing in an hour and a half from the time they leave the dock.

Would I pay a little more for clean fuel...shouldn't I be getting clean fuel anyway? This year at 4+ bucks a gallon, the two fuel docks by me gave free filtered water with each fill up. Unfortunately it was in the fuel.

Yes I would pay a few cents more if I believed the fuel was clean and premium.

[In Memory Walter K]

In the midst of our Northeast Ethanol mess, Randall bought Avgas from Easthampton airport for his B-25. 100 octane, no ethanol, leaded. Engines never ran so good, didn't have to rip out his tanks, but he DID pay a premium for it. I sure as hell would pay more for non-ethanoled fuel for my B-20. Walter

[IRGuy]

Several weeks ago I asked Tony Athens on the Boatdiesel forum about low/no sulfur diesel and what we should do to keep our engines happy.. I am also concerned that some consumer additives might be more fluff than substance and not much more than snake oil.. here is his response...

2-- Sulfur -- Yup, I am concerned about it, but I also believe in American ingenuity--This country moves on diesel and I can only believe that the EMA, engine & fuel injections system manufacturers, and other truck organizations have it under 100% control...... My general take: " I do not believe any of the marketing scare tactics used by any additive provider of any type or used for any purpose and sold at the 'individual user' level, has any merit for long term engine health"-----And that includes oil additives, fuel system cleaners, etc, etc--If my memory serves me right, my first experience with additives was w/ "STP", "Motor Medic" and "Marvel Mystery Oil" -To me, they are all in the same bucket---And that goes for now as well as for the past---I consider it all 100% sales / marketing driven crap.. After all, there is not one operation from any of the individuals on these forums that uses much fuel in the big scheme of things. I deal with old and new diesel engine customers that now have modern diesels, with many using well over 20,000-40,000 gallons of fuel per year per engine, and never an additive.. BTW, we're are on low sulfur diesel here in Calif and have been for months now... So , it is very hard for me to "buy into" any additive for any reason.. As far as Cummins goes, they are very clear as to their position on any additive, now and in the past-----Basically, it's NO....You need to worry about what really causes fuel systems to fail---99% of the time, it is dirt and/or water, and that will never change.........But, if you really can't sleep at night because of "Low Sulfur", why not add a gallon of motor oil to every 100 gallons of #2-- 100:1?? Sounds like a two-stoke mix to me....

So, I am not as worried as I was before.. I value his opinion highly.

BTW: My local Cummins guy said almost the same thing, with the comment that if I add anything, it should be BioBor for slime and goo control.

[Bruce]

Hey guys, watch using av gas.

Gasoline is measured in several ways, octane and Reed vapor pressure. The latter is the ability of fuel to atomize at a lower temperature.

Gas in areas of the country that get cold have their fuel seasonally adjusted as most you know, for ease of starting the fuel has a higher vapor pressure so it evaporates at a lower temp.

If you’ve ever seen an engine dyno setup, they measure the amount of humidity and barometric pressure because the denser the air the more power the engine will produce.

Aviation gas is formulated to be able to vaporize at a high altitude and lower temperature.
Put av gas in a boat without the jetting being adjusted for the fuel and its’ very easy to run lean and detonate. That equates to engine destruction.

Piston driven planes run at almost constant rpm and the jetting is adjusted during flight for optimum power and economy.
Most airplanes have pyrometers in the exhaust and the engine manufacturers have specifications for exhaust temps.

The rule is usually lean to maximum temp on the hottest cylinder and then richen until the exhaust on the hottest cylinder is 30 degrees cooler.

There’s more to just dumping high octane boosters or fuel into your tank.

I’ve seen a few guys use av gas in their bikes and wonder why there are holes in the pistons.

------------------------------------
I disagree with Tony on his view of additives or conditioners.

I've seen the difference in pumps and injectors from those who use an additive such as stanadyne and those who don't when the parts are torn down for repair.

The conditioner engines for the most part have less wear and higher hour intervals between repairs besides side benefits of less smoking and better burn.

I make LESS money on those engines using condtioners do to less service.

While there are some snake oil products, there are good conditioners that do work.

I don't have faith in the engine makers to keep up with the changing conditions of fuel.
Industry is driven on profits. Retooling and changing metalurgy compositions because the epa changes the fuel takes time and hugh amounts of coin.

If Tony has such faith in those companies, then why did he have to come up with his own water pump?
Cummins and sherwood should have recognized the problem and fixed it right?
Wrong, they made hugh amounts of money on selling parts and pumps.

When the 4bt was injesting injectors, why did Cummins not come out and do a recall on all the engines?
Cause it would of cost them money and they decided to handle it on a reported only basis. And then at times you had to push to get it covered.

The stuff I'm told to keep quiet is amazing from manufacturers.

Dealers are threatened with the dealership being yanked and mechanics who know are threatened with their jobs if they tell the consumer about problems.

There's gonna be no catastrophic destruction of engines due to low sulfur fuel, but there will be higher wear rates that most boaters won't see cause of the Jewish Fleet mentality. (see Jackie Mason)

For what its worth, I have no faith in big business to do anything that will save consumers money.