Chimera-Lessons learned on this trip

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Nov 1st, '06, 14:42

Well we are in the last season of this girls restoration. Most of you have been following along with the pictures and posts as we move forward. This years project included the removal of engines to re-work the engine bay and deck structures including rudder/strut pads and faring the cockpit to get rid of the panels, then adding the transom kill box.
Learning the requirements for the B-330's I am amazed at what we have found.

What gets me is that regardless of the fact the boat ran OK. Someone actually took the time and made the decisions to put the boat back together after buying new engines for it this poorly. I am overwhelmed by the ignorance involved with some of the decisions made by the prior owners of this vessel.
At least 4 gallons of silicon had to be used and subsequently peeled off by my partner and I.

Will the boat be put back together the same way it came apart. NO F-ing WAY!!!!!
Will this be one of the best 31's in the country when its finished. YES!

Am I pissed that we found problems? No most were expected and anticipated, though I must say the tiny MG502 gears were a neat surprise but we will get a set of ZF 220A's and move forward.

The point to all this. If your going to take the time to tear these things apart do it right the first time. It will cost more up front. But you will use a safer, boat longer and sell it at a higher price because of your up front investment.

Just my rant.

scot · Post by **scot** » Nov 1st, '06, 15:32

Ranting is good for your soul and entertaining for the rest of us.

Keep me posted on the ZF 220's...cost, support, first impressions, problems, etc. I will be in the gear market this time next year. That should be enough time for you to form an opinion about these gears. they appear to be quite popular these days for "re-gearing" projects.... but I don't hear much about them...good or bad?

Scot

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Nov 1st, '06, 15:51

JP,
Linda & i were also amazed when we tore ours apart. i used the rocket launcher as a balancing post in some rough seas thinking it was mounted to the deck properly. When removing I found they used cap bolts that were too short and only caught by 1 1/2 threads on the mounting plate. i'm sure glad corrision kept them in place. It's nice knowing you put it together right espically when crossing the Gulf Stream on the way to the islands
Good luck,
RussP

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:03

Scot - when I became the Steward of AJ in the early 90's I found she had ZF IRM 220A gears behind the Cummins 6BTA 250s. Frankly, I'd never even heard of ZF gears at the time, and was leery. They are made in Italy.

After putting a couple thousand hours on them, my observations are:

1. They are very good gears overall;
2. The two little hi-pressure tubes on the port rear side near the top are hi corbon steel and rust away if you don't keep paint and CX on them, say once a month, since they are in the line of fire from the mist from the shaft logs;
3. Same issue for the shift lever (and the detent ball under it) on the port top of the gear and the bracket that holds the shift cable, and the dipstick will rust too if not maintained to a "T" with paint and CX;
4. Same rust issue on the body of the pressure sender on the lower port rear of the gear, not a ZF part, but needs attention;
5. The port gear will chatter at very low rpm since its running in reverse; they tell me there is no ratio difference between forward and reverse, but my view is the port running in reverse is a higher ratio since my engines with computer scanned props and a clean bottom will run 30-50 rpm higher on the port than the stb (2650 WOT on the port, just over 2600 on the stb). On the other hand, the factory specs for the 6BTA 250s allows for a 5% variation from the 2600 WOT, so that difference I have always seen is within spec.
6. They use regular motor oil, SAE 30, and the oil never seems to get dirty, change interval per book is 1,000 hours. You will usually bust a cooler hose before then and they will change themselves.......

By and large, I've been very happy with the ZF 220As once you understand them and how to properly maintain them. They have an aluminum case and are pretty light vs. some of the others. Main advice I will give all is to keep the damn things painted good and soaked in CX as the outside parts are made of steel that rusts if you spit on it.

UV

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:16

Glad to hear your rant as I spend two days making a side window fit. I had planned an installation that would have been visually O.K. and then when I took a second look realized that it wasn't worthy of the rest of the work. As I soldier on with this it certainly helps moral and stimulation to hear someone else trudging through the oatmeal slowly but persistantly.
Spent my last day on Dreamsicle for a while as I go to FL for a meeting first of the week and then get my knee replaced on the 13th. Be out of commission for about six weeks. Crap!
Ah, well, that's better than putting up with the continued pain.
Keep the fires burning.

scot · Post by **scot** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:30

Thanks UV...I have a bunch of experience with precision industrial equipment built in Italy. In my opinion, as a rule of thumb the Italians typically produce really good stuff....they make the finest shotguns in the world.

As mentioned I have a healthy respect for their mechanical products, these are the guys that produce the fastest cars on earth...but Italians can be hell on US distributors! To the Italians the process of manufacturing is an art form, something that cannot be rushed.

New found respect for ZF....it would be discouraging to discover they were made in France.

Scot

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:47

Yeah, surprised me too. New 220As are about 3K, surplus new ones about 2500 and used ones 1-1.5. Make sure you get the 1.53 to one ratios as they cannot be changed I was told.

UV

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:48

Scot,
The ZF gears are really quite good (and it kills me to say it because they are my direct competition in transit) ZF has always been typical of a German company (I know I work for one), very slow to respond slower to react.
Warranty is always a challenge.
Despite these issues Twin Disc does not have that much better a reputation. So you deal with the devil you know.
ZF has a global price strategy to be the cheapest in the market. Everything is set as global pricing. They are at least 1000.00 less then twin disc in most cases. Twin disc went and bought an italian gear and rebranded it the MG 5055A just to compete with ZF's pricing. The jury is still out on the MG 5055A.

scot · Post by **scot** » Nov 1st, '06, 16:58

A $1,000 x 2 is REAL money, to me anyway.

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Nov 1st, '06, 17:02

JP,

ZF220A 1:53 is what I have for my Cummins 250's and also have a friend running the same gear on Cat 3126 400/horses per and runs them hard I mean and gears have held good.

R,
DQ

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 1st, '06, 18:07

Capt. Doug - ZF told me a couple of years ago that the 220As are rated for 370 hp, but it was about to go up with some upgrades. At 250 they seem bulletproof, with the rust preventative and maintaince procedures I outlined above.

All in all, my experience has been excellent with this gear. If the oil gets low for whatever reason, they will let you know there is a problem far in advance of hurting them - they will slip a little on hard acceleration, and since we know our boats inside and out, that one little slip will tip us off there is a problem. Check the oil, add some, find the leak - it will almost always be a leak in the gear cooler hoses or fittings - and motor on. Ignore the chatter at low rpm, it's just the Italian in them......

UV

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Nov 1st, '06, 18:12

JP I just purchased 6 bta's through Carvers. They came with the ZF 220 gears and after talking with more than a few people including capt. Pat, I was told the twin dics was a much better gear, so I got them. The price difference totaled 200.00 dollars. I don't know if it would be different buying just the gears as opposed to buying engines and gears. I bought remans 260's.Be talking to you as I'll soon be at Carvers. By the way, your boat looks great!! Russ

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Nov 1st, '06, 18:24

Vic,

You are right about HP rating on the 220a's and I told him that about the rating and the last time when he went fishing in June down at Venice marina he rungoff all the coupler bolts on the starboard engine. Come to find out he did not have the proper bolts in place. Forty mile ride back to the dock in Venice on one engine. Sounded real bad when it happen, but did not hurt the gears. They still running strong as you said Bullproof!

R,
DQ

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Nov 2nd, '06, 17:53

Russ,

The difference is about $1000 for the pair bobtailed (probably didn't say that before) When hooked to an engine the gap may close. Or depending on whether or not the trolling valve option is chosen.
Twin Disc is a good gear the 5050 is tuff. Given the two choices we went ZF for the reasons previously stated.

I've been waiting to say hello Libby had mentioned whose motors they were. ( a little light went on in my head about a day later)

You do know who's boat that used to be?

bertram31.com

Chimera-Lessons learned on this trip

Chimera-Lessons learned on this trip

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