cummins installation

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Dec 1st, '09, 21:05

new member, I'm about to install 330 hp QSB engines in my project boat.These are the electronic version.On may first dry fit on the port side.( I also stuck a new 3.5 nexgen outboard of this engine) things got real crowded, capt pat claims you have to sometimes have to hold your head in a certain position to work on the genset. The port exhaust elbow appears to be a challange if I ever want to use the cabin door again. Popped the engine to the strd side to take a look and find the new engine beds or sisters I installed following capt pats' imput are to narrow and will take dynamite to remove them. I can probably fabricate new mounts other than the ones supplied by cummins, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I understand the need for the "ramps" capt pat described and can build them, my concern is the cantalevering effect that may locate the wt and torque away from the beds. Has anyone done this install? tkx

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 1st, '09, 21:21

Marlin,

Give Bruce a call... He's familiar with the QSBs & the B31 and might be able to give you some "on location" guidance.

Br,

Patrick

Thums Up · Post by **Thums Up** » Dec 1st, '09, 21:23

I can't speak for any of the install stuff, I am redoing a 30 Chris Craft tournament at the moment. Another Ray hunt designed boat. But, if you need new mounts for those motors check out Tony Athens stuff. www.sbmar.com looks for installing motors and shafts under tips in the articles... you will see the mounts he makes that can be welded in several positions. I have a set on my motors and they help big time!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 2nd, '09, 06:03

Whats the center line measurement on the stringers for the port and stb sides?

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Dec 2nd, '09, 11:55

Theres a 31 near mine.. Done the QSBs & total redo also
Nice job.
Dont know the particulars,yet.
Wayne

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 2nd, '09, 13:38

Here are some pics I've posted before of one of the first set of QSB's available that I put in a 31.

All the computers were put up inside the center console pod along with Glenndening controls and sync that that directly interfaced.

Some include pics of the exhaust setup on the port and the mounts and risers.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Dec 2nd, '09, 16:19

Bruce .... wow is that clean .... very nice !!

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Dec 2nd, '09, 20:58

When did Cummins move the expansion tank to the side of the engine?

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Dec 3rd, '09, 12:55

Heres a few pics of Chucks 31 bert "Cowboy"w/QSBs ...nice boat.

looks like no downangle.. Hmm never noticed that.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 3rd, '09, 13:52

That pipe in the port engine must get pretty warm Ironman

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 3rd, '09, 16:53

both installs are just beautiful!
ok dumb question, but whats up with the blue fuel line? what happed to the old black stuff?

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Dec 3rd, '09, 16:56

Brew: Its wrapped with a Cool blanket.. I have the same over the top set up.
Adds the shower down stream
Wayne

chuck · Post by **chuck** » Dec 3rd, '09, 18:52

The blue hoses are not fuel, they go to the transmission for cooling

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 3rd, '09, 18:58

but whats up with the blue fuel line?

On mine the blue fuel Aeroquip hose was used because the boat was going to be in charter service and it was C.G. required.

The same stuff was also used as well on the gear cooler hoses.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 3rd, '09, 20:49

the cc blue are about twice the price and have a interwoven ss layer below the blue sythetic cover----no comparason but cc blue is only used with threaded fittings .
iron man there are very serious issues with cowboy`s exhaust !!! the sprinker head should have been installed after third 90 degree fitting on the straight vertical going down never put a sprinkler head on the horizontal-----think about it .

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 3rd, '09, 20:57

bruce, bob
are these hoses made on site, or are they crimp on fittings?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 3rd, '09, 22:08

i had them all made up by moreland hose .i just give them the lenth and them tell them particulars (rt.angle/straight/male /female and sometimes 45 degree . i use for all critical fluid aka. fuel,oil,gear oil. bruce did a great job and that trident (blue silicon) hose is critical to absorb shock and movement . the exhaust cannot be SOLID,something has to give best thing is to print the bruce cummins installation and use it as a guide for future referance.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 3rd, '09, 22:11

coolair i use all cc blue on my own installation. sometimes you have a non-visable area of the hose being chaffe unbeknowed to you this is insurance thats why the coast guard mandated it.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 3rd, '09, 22:40

ok thought so, wasnt sure if you could used the screw type fittings like in normal hydrolic hose.
OH and the fact that i didnt notice the "shower" deal till after yall said something, is just one more reason i am not going with diesels any time soon... i dont know crap about them!
Matt

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 4th, '09, 10:04

matt i should give you the proper name not the slang word we use in the yard. coast guard blue is actually FC332-10 AQP and is rated at 250psi.when you order optional oil relocation kit from cummins,catapillar,john deere they come from the factory (oem) with cc blue hose .never use a simple clamp on them. the black/red hose has cloth under rubber and tend to crack in a few years .when the oil hose from filter lets loose you have a few minutes before the engine is destroyed. i am the poor son of a bitch who has to take one of them apart.if it is the fuel hose then the fuel fines it`s way to the exhaust manifold and you have a colorful explosion ,we have had two 4 in recent years ,one a beautiful restored 30' cc.bruce also used the best of the best blue silicon hose. not only does it take up alignment problems (double hump hose) it takes vibration and heat (like losing your water pump) far better then the normal black heat hose.lastly bruce even went to t-bar clamps which are far superior to conventional ss rachet clamps . trust me use his installation for a guide line when you install your diesels jack . we are here to help you but in this rare case i am giving that other installation a critical safety warning.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Dec 4th, '09, 12:26

Getting ready to install my 6bta-250s in Jan> Anyone with templates for ramps or tips on install feel free to advise. Planning 5" wet exhaust a crossover on the port with a down angled showerhead. That big aircleaner to port may need a mod and plan on a next gen 3.5 to make the job more difficult. Found oval 5" mufflers that fit well and plan on surge tubes. Anyone use Tony's version of airseps and like them? Thanks in advance,Bill

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 4th, '09, 16:53

Bill - I have the 6BTA 250s and a 6.5 KW Phasor genset. Yes, do get Tony's S&B air filters, super deal and permanent vs. the throw away paper ones...much better than the K&N ones. I have 5" exhaust with mufflers and they work fine. My port engine has a standard 90 degree sweep elbow and it ....just......fits with no modes to the motor box, then goes thru a fancy 5" stainless pipe with multiple angles to the exhaust hose to the muffler. I'll be happy to make some pix for you...I'll probably go over to the boat tomorrow is the snowstorm allows.

It will be the earliest snow in history here...the huge snowstorm we got last Dec. 11 was the former record. Algore is a fat fake.

UV

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Dec 4th, '09, 18:57

Bob: My grunt brother... I see the shower added inline to the muffler.. But I dont see how that is a danger (To water ingestation) Am I missing somthing?

I do like Bruces downangle across the bulkhead better than my own. (Less blanket area)But I only see one or two thrubolts on the stringers..
Wayne

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 4th, '09, 21:48

yes the hold concept of the sprinkler is to " encircle" the 950 degree hot exhaust with cold sea water. a perfectly symmetrical curtain of water should form around the hot gas to cool it to the point where it will not destroy the uninsulated pipe or in this case regular rubber exhaust pipe.when that pipe gets a hole blow thru it the boat fills with water very quickly.this is under the cockpit deck and you would find out when the water starts to go over the cockpit floor!!!!!!a entire chapter and red warning in the cummins installation manual.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 4th, '09, 21:55

Bob
are your fittings steel,stainless or brass?
I think my bro said he uses brass on his boat because they corrode like steel
Oh and where do you get the "list" of the CG requirements, i might put a charter permit on my boat, and even if i dont i want it CG approved.
Matt

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 4th, '09, 22:20

matt aeroquip gives you two choices steel or brass. the brass gets a little green oxide on the outside but they are perfect unless you are one of those anal ones who polish all the brass fittings i would not lose any sleep over them.in my humble opinon even if you never intend to use your boat "for hire" i would do exactlly what bruce did on this installation;
A) the coast guard has quite a bit of experiance in ships that sank aqnd what the malfuntion was. and B) to be honest in my opinon ,if you skimp on your installation it nomally comes back to bite you in the ass at the worst possible time!!!
matt i do not have the packet # for the coast guard regulation but it is on line sombody will give you a link.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 5th, '09, 06:18

Wayne,

Good eye on the cap bolts.

When the caps were installed over the built up stringers they were also epoxied down with a thickened mixture. The front and rear bolts were put in to hold in place till the epoxy set and then 2 more were to be added in between.

This boat was done at an opened boat yard during our rainy season and it rained for a few days. When I returned, the painter had already painted the risers, caps and engine room area and it slipped my mind and I continued with the engine install untill I checked my checklist before the sea trial and noticed they were not there.

Installed then but in reality since the cap and risers were 1/2 material I doubt anything would have moved.

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Dec 5th, '09, 15:31

Marlin, I also installed a pair of Cummins 5.9s, could not use any of the factory mounts, I had custom ones fabbed up after hanging the motor in the boat. Build the mounts to meet the ramps/ beds. Have you guys seen the Parker marine fuel line? seems pretty rugged and they have push in fittings good to 250 psi..Once they are pushed in only way to get them out is to cut them...next question how do you change direction of the raw water discharge? Copper heat exchangers right?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 5th, '09, 16:21

bob h look at the photo of my engine installation . look at the rear of the heat exchanger and you can see i reverse it.i cut it out and reverse it by brazing it . be careful with the heat the cooling bundle is not to far away. i used a short section of fiberglass pipe between pre shaped hose to check water flow and a aid to troubleshooting.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Dec 5th, '09, 17:55

nice install, tkx for the images.Many questions,1 why change the water discharge direction? 2. Are the"engine ramps" drilled and tapped to accept the Barrys'? 3 I dont see any exhaust stuffyet,Bruce shows asupper system with risers, yet I se other installs with just elbows. Bruces' install shows the aft engine bulkhead moved futheraft to accomadate the ehaust transition outboard, will you do that? 4 My dry fit tells me I need a widened and lengthed motor box assy, same with you? tks for your patience!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 5th, '09, 19:28

marlin if you did not change to heat exchanger output 180 degrees the pipe would run smack into the exhaust pipe from the output of the turbo!!!
bob h incidently i went with 41/2" id 316 ss all the way to sprinkler head.dyno shows 6hp increase, you know those crazy guys who are hp consious at all times .---gotta get that exhaust out!!!!

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Dec 5th, '09, 20:07

Bob tkx, I have gained so much knowledge from the considerate responses, and of course capt patrick!

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Dec 6th, '09, 07:44

Marlin, my engine ramps are hollow from the back, on the outboard side of the engines only wedges were used and I drilled out the stringers slighty larger than the holes in the engine beds, then I used epoxy unthickend first then mixed up cabosil, microfiber, high denstity mix, found a high grade stainless bolt cut off the head, then epoxied the rods into the stringers...Bob Lico, 4.5" ss exhaust, will do, Bama brother (harry b) is helping me with the shower heads..thanks for the heat exchanger tip..my dad taught me to weld by teaching me to braze first..BH

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 6th, '09, 10:47

bob h i will try to take a very important photo for you. first try and follow my terrible spelling. ok here we go; port engine out of tubo LARGE radius 180 degree turn (my engines have quite a bit of top space due to engines sitting very close to bilge )then go across top of engine allowing just enough for blanket . now you line up with the muffler input down below.cock the 90 degree ss fitting about 60 degees towards muffler .now your 6" sprinkler head, then a short section of trident silicon hose and a 316 ss 6" by 60 degree fitting with another trident hose straight into muffler. this will give you the best exhaust flow and have the insurance of a surge protection along with one way baffle in the front of muffler.i back down so hard on a big eye tuna this year i put a wave over the transom never a problem with putting water into the engine(god forbid).

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Dec 6th, '09, 12:22

I rolled my heat ex a little to clear the blanket.. I like Bobs redirect idea..
The engine box on Cowboys boat was raised by adding a fixed lip to the deck & attaching the hinges upright..dont notice it at all.
It also keeps water from draining into the engine area from the deck..
Im putting the parker hoses on ,Got em cut & layed out.
..
Wayne

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Dec 6th, '09, 12:53

Bob Lico wrote:i cut it out and reverse it by brazing it . be careful with the heat the cooling bundle is not to far away.

I found out the you can TIG weld the elbow back onto the heat exchanger using Silver Solder as a filler and Argon as a shield......total heat input is much less than using a torch to solder the fitting back onto the exchanger.

Using the TIG process you can stop and cool the joint then proceed if you think that you are getting close to damaging the "Bundle"

H

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 6th, '09, 15:49

harry i was able to slid a heat sink in between cooling bundle and heat exchanger tank. bob here is a photo of 6" sprinkler head on down pipe. hard to photo but you get the idea notice the 60 degree 6" ss fitting at the bottom on a slight angle to the 6" muffler opening on opposite site of bulkhead.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 7th, '09, 00:02

All i can say for brazing, use the good silver solider, 15% not the cheap shit and if heat is an issue, make sure you sand and clean the joint really good, and the solider should flow! put a wet rag around maybe? when we have to braze expansion valves and other valves that have seals in them, we ususaly just wrap them with a wet rag and they are good to go.
But as harry said, you could always tig it... hell, if its copper and not under pressure, you could probably use a butane torch and led past stuff plumbers use. idk

i was reading, there is some braided SS hose approved by CG, That would look sweet, with AN fittings, kind of hotrodish. probably expensive as hell
Matt

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Apr 30th, '10, 20:31

Bruce, did you have to alter or "bubble" the port motor box to accomadate the exhaust riser, I have a new set of Capt Alex motor box assys and had the exhaust fabed by Diangelo , port side cover still needs to move another 4" inboard to clear the exhaust, I forwarded your images to them to help design the risers, any help is much appreciated, the boat is now at Palmbeach Towers in Riveria Beach for the 1/2tower work thx Marlin

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Apr 30th, '10, 20:50

Marlin,

Bruce didn't modify the engine box... Compare the two images and you'll see that your exhaust sweep is much wider and less compact than the one Bruce has installed.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 1st, '10, 07:18

This is where purpose design comes into play.

The person either submitting the design to a builder, or if the builder is designing the piece themselves, have to understand and acknowledge the size constraints and work with them.

D'Angelo in Ft Lauderdale built mine because they had the capability to build what I wanted.

The design and build of the risers was done before the engines even went in to make sure nothing had to be changed on the install to get everything to fit within the confines of the boxes.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » May 1st, '10, 20:22

Bruce thx for the response, I handed your images to their cad designer when he visited the boat whick cost an extra 250$, I didnt want any surprises or changes, obviously yours worked and the "1st" cad dude knew they had built your set. The second cad person that drove back up also took more measurements and I waited for the final product. I guess I should have requested the drawings to be sure we were on the same page,bad assumption.. They say they can gain a couple of inches for me , thats why I ask if yours fit, they told me {Dave} that sometimes a" bubble" needs to be added to make thinks work. They did my rybo and those are great and they want me to be satisfied

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 1st, '10, 20:39

they told me {Dave} that sometimes a" bubble" needs to be added to make things work.

Dave's trying to blow smoke up your ass......... I've seen hull bottoms with "bubbles" to make room for oil pan or transmission clearance, but never on an engine box. Total BS.

A bubble anywhere would be only a band-aid for poor engineering.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 2nd, '10, 05:41

If you sent them pics and they knew of the build and what I see in your pics is the result, I don't know what to say other than their ability to do a job correctly has seriously degraded.

No excuse for something like that especially after visiting the boat and taking measurements.

Welcome to Florida, where "It'll get by with a little tweaking" is our motto.

Glad I'm out.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 2nd, '10, 09:02

Marlin wrote:Bruce thx for the response, I handed your images to their cad designer when he visited the boat whick cost an extra 250$, I didnt want any surprises or changes, obviously yours worked and the "1st" cad dude knew they had built your set. The second cad person that drove back up also took more measurements and I waited for the final product. I guess I should have requested the drawings to be sure we were on the same page,bad assumption.. They say they can gain a couple of inches for me , thats why I ask if yours fit, they told me {Dave} that sometimes a" bubble" needs to be added to make thinks work. They did my rybo and those are great and they want me to be satisfied

I wouldn't be satisfied with a bubble.

They where told / given the motor box constraints when they where taking measurements? If so...they did a blunder.

Unless the CAD files where Bruce's...wonder why they didn't use those...at least to compare or modify from.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » May 26th, '10, 05:30

We picked up the port riser this week and D'angelo was able to reduce the excess width miraculously by 4". Unfortunately I will not be working on the project till next October so I dont know the final fitment, but I was pleased with there efforts and follow thru without any hassle

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » May 26th, '10, 09:29

Our West coast connection, Tony, did this exhaust for my 300 Cummins. All five inch and with mufflers. Fits snugly, no change to the Cabrera engine boxes. Engines run well and Tony made the whole process seamless. This is the way to go.

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