When it rains, it pours!

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 9th, '06, 07:05

After sitting idle for 4 weeks, I finally got to putting in the starboard raw water pump last week. Let both engines run at about 1500rpm and watched the gauges for a while, then brought down to 1000rpm while I washed down the boat. End result was everything was running nicely and all gauges gave normal readings. Figured I would be able to fish yesterday.

Got to the boat yesterday at 7am. Put the keys in and starboard starts right up, but the port motor is hard to start. Once started we notice a tapping (lifter?) noise. It seemed to smooth out so we proceeded to go fishing. Didin't even make it out of the canal. The port motor wouldn't spin above 2400rpm and the noise got worse, to the point of sounding like marbles in a blender. It also started to bog down and and smooth out on several occasions, like the tranny would be slipping. Got back to the dock and told the mechanic about the situation. He listened for a few minutes and simply said, "this doesn't sound good". He seemed to feel it was all in the engine and not tranny related, but basically, unless he can diagnose and fix this quickly or reassemble the drivetrain in my 26 and launch her, my season is over as far as fishing on my own boat.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Oct 9th, '06, 07:22

Harv,
That does not sound good. Not gettting up to speed is one of the same problems I had. Sounded great at idle but did not make power. Then I had catastrophic engine failure. I hope your problem is something simple to fix.
Kevin

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 9th, '06, 09:23

Harv-check your plugs and carb. Sounds like what happened on my 20 thanks to Ethanol. Walter

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 9th, '06, 11:41

Harv-

I (thankfully) have no experience with ethanol...but my starboard motor (454) broke a rocker arm, which took out 2 pushrods. It made alot of noise--like marbles in a blender. Sounds like something may have let go in your valve train. Take off your valve covers and take a look. When my motor broke, I was told by a couple of mechanics that I should have the motor torn down to see what caused the problem--then I went to a speed shop, and the guy there shrugged his shoulders and said that 454s have notoriously weak stock rockers, and they break. Long story less long, it costs me about $25 parts (rocker, pushrods, valve guide), about an hour, and she was running....that was 4 years ago.

Good luck--hope its easy.

John F.

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » Oct 9th, '06, 19:16

Start with the basics.................install a new ignition head, spark plug wires and spark plugs...............if that doesn't work.........please God help H's wallet......

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 22nd, '06, 20:23

The verdict is in. It seems the port motor has 3 dead cylinders. The season is over and yes, God help my wallet. Best case scenario is just needing to have the heads redone. Worst case scenario is a total rebuild of the port motor. There is also a slight leak on the starboard tranny.

Any way, the game plan will be to get Lil' Windstar launched for next March, and take my time redoing the port motor. With any luck, I might have an idea as to what type of settlement I'll be receiving for my accident, and maybe scrap the gassers altogether and jump to diesels. Unfortunately, my luck isn't always that good and I'll probably redo the motor and then get news of the settlements. Oh well, only time will tell.

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » Oct 22nd, '06, 21:23

Good luck!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 23rd, '06, 07:06

Harv, That is bad news, I am sorry. If you ever want to fish in the next couple of weeks for some bass or just go out in the boat I would be happy to take you. So you do not go stir crazy. Im in Hampton Bays.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Oct 23rd, '06, 07:21

Harv,

I'm sorry to here of your motor troubles & that you're down hard. Maybe you could work on everything else but the motor rebuild, to buy yourself some time. You may be able to keep an eye out for an RTO to replace your port motor and buy some time. Unfortunately I think that gas motors are in their sunset due to emissions and poor quality fuels. I'm not sure diesel is an entirely safe play either. But the most viable alternative to diesel is biodiesel and that doesn't seem as bad an alternative as the ethanol laced gas.

Best of Luck getting Windstar (Sr.) back on the water.

br,
JohnD

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 23rd, '06, 09:07

Harv-

Just curious by what you mean when you say "3 bad cylinders." I'm assuming they're "bad" because of lack of compression--not ignition (which if only 3 bad would be real cheap--wires and plugs) If you can get away with just a head rebuild, is it due to burnt/bent valves? If its just lack of compression, is it due to bent/broken pushrods or bad rockers? There may be a cheap fix if the cylinders/block are OK. Like I said, I had 2 "bad" cylinders b/c of broken/bent pushrods and a broken rocker, and it cost me under $25 parts and about an hour of my own labor. I just reread my previous post--it wasn't a bad valve guide--I also had bent the pushrod guide/plate (bolts into the head-forget what its called). Good luck.

John F.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 23rd, '06, 09:54

Harv-Sorry to hear about your problem. I too wonder what the definition of 3 bad cylinders. Unless you're trapped by your marina's rules, I'd get a second opinion. If, in fact it is a bad, big bill for them to fix it, consider shopping the boat shows either for a new or rebuilt replacement or a set of diesels. Hopefully, your settlement might ease the pain. Walter

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 23rd, '06, 20:49

3 dead cylinders = 0 compression. One is at 125lbs, and the rest are at 130lbs. I also noticed some lifter noise as the engine was running. Unfortunately, I may be bound by "yard rules". However, if the heads need to be redone, I think the yard sends them to a machine shop, in which case, I will ask to take them to my own guy here in Brooklyn. Also unfortunate for me is the fact that I only have 1 or 2 days per week to do the work myself and that also might leave me at the mercy of the yard. However, if I can get some time to start taking the motor apart, it should save some $$$$$ on labor and I might find the answers myself. I hope I can rule out the ethanol curse since only 1 engine was affected. Anyway, he told me he would reassemble my center console back in June and it's still sitting as an empty hull. Maybe this will work in my favor towards doing some of the work myself.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 23rd, '06, 21:37

Maybe I should look into these 2 bad boys.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Marine-B ... dZViewItem

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Oct 24th, '06, 07:32

Also check out boatdiesel.com for some RTO's (gas) knowing diesel is where you want to be, maybe $3k for a set of RTO's (gas) can buy you some time until the pocketbook is ready for diesel.

Heck, if I can work out the #'s or win the MegaMillions and can repower I'll make you a heck of a deal on my motors.

-John

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 24th, '06, 11:38

O compression can be a hung up valve.

If you running on the old glass tank with ethanol it sounds like a very familiar problem.

What engines do you have?

Did not realize you are a stones thru away from me.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 24th, '06, 11:51

Zero compression sure sounds like hung open valves to me! Harv- The Ethanol Monster may have struck you. You'll know the minute you get that head off.Walter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 24th, '06, 12:34

Just thinking if it is hung, yank a valve cover off and give it a look. May get away with tapping valve back down. A bad spring or a bent push rod could be the culprit as well.

All can be taken care of fairly easily in the water with little out of pocket expence.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 24th, '06, 12:52

Harv-

I'm with the above advice. At least pop off a valve cover and take a look. I'm betting its in your valve train. Hang a valve, or here probably valves, and you'll get 0 compression. You need quite the catstrophic failure in your lower end to kill 3 cylinders to 0 compression. Just my 2 cents.

John F.

scot · Post by **scot** » Oct 24th, '06, 18:33

Hey Harv there's a guy in the Swap & sell section with 2 marine power gas engines for sale @ $2,200 for the pair with 1800 hours. Might be cheaper to buy them both and have a spare motor.

Althought you may not have the pack rat issues that I do.

Scot

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Oct 25th, '06, 18:47

Harv just as a barometer .It took me 2 years to get a settlement on my accident in 91. There not fast to hand out money. Hope your is quicker, they can be it all depends on circumstances. Good luck. Dave K

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 27th, '06, 13:15

Dave,

I am already one year since the accident.

I expect my Worker's Comp settlement before the lawsuit settlement. The only problem is that my Comp provider has already informed me of a lien against any third party settlements. Saw the doctor yesterday and he figures I'm at 50% loss of my shoulder, 20% for my back, and 20% for my neck. It should be a decent amount of scratch, and I'll let my lawyer figure out how to keep a major portion of my lawsuit away from Comp. Comp does not take into account pain and suffering, negligence, lost wages, etc., so I hope I still have a good chunk after all is said and done.
When I first saw him, I mentioned repowering with diesel and gave him a ballpark figure.....his response....."That's doable." So I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed and wait for everything to play out. My total worse case scenario is I leave Windstar blocked for next year and use my 26 foot center console.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Oct 27th, '06, 16:25

Harv,
I have been following this post hoping to hear the diagnosis on the engine that has 3 dead cylinders. For now I am running 454 gassers in "De Nada" and I am really interseted in knowing exactly why you lost 3 cylinders.

Have you pulled the valve covers yet and if so what did you see??

Harry Babb

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 28th, '06, 10:59

Harry,

Haven't had a chance to do any work yet. With my job taking 5 to 6 days of my time and family the other day, it is hard to find time to get down to the boat. Right now it's nothing more than theories and conjecture, but as soon as I find the reasons I will be sure to post it here.

My machinist seems to think that if it is not an ethanol problem that it could be carbon and varnish build up depositing in the valve seats. He says that if this is the case, the valves are trying to reseat themselves in this build up and therefore are not closing, thus not allowing the compression to build. Regardless of the reasons, he feels a rebuild of the heads are in order.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 28th, '06, 14:45

Harv- Talk to Randall. He poured acetone into the vave cover/oil fill. Took out his sparkplugs and turned his engine over and bathed his cockpit in what he described as asphalt. Seems it dissolves ethanol goo. You might need a head cleanup rather than a rebuild. Walter

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Oct 29th, '06, 08:53

I am really out of my league here as I am only a simple occasional wrench turner.. but one of the ethanol related problems was the fact that ethanol dissolved one of the fiberglas tank chemicals into the fuel, which passed through the filters and caused hard black goo to build up on the valve seats, causing valves to hang. Sounds like what your mechanic feels is the problem, but maybe he doesn't realize the cause?

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