Check out this boat, it's was just built.

yachts101 · Post by **yachts101** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:07

Look familiar, it runs over 40mph is built with all hydropel vinylester resins and has a fully cored hull for an amazing solid ride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scio0QF45gc

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:34

fully cored hull

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:44

I'm intruiged, excited, and confused...

Did ya'll buy the molds?
...or...
Slightly modify a B31 hull, and make a mold from it?

You've got quite a few of our members Bertrams in the Nassau3204 photo gallery..?..?
http://www.bright-side.net/marine/bsmarine_007.htm

Whatever, it's great that someone is doing this. I hope it takes of for ya, despite the economy.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 11th, '08, 11:19

350k is gonna be a tough sell. Its already been discussed in length here when Bertram thought about bringing it back many years ago at the height of the 31 craze.

Now an original 31 can be had pretty cheap.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Dec 11th, '08, 12:02

I've requested the company remove the shot of CHIMERA from the site. It is not a Nassau 3204 and has never been touched by anyone from Tampa FL.

Sorry its a refurbished Bertram not a launching platform for a new boat company.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 11th, '08, 12:12

Yep, it's one thing to post up a photo on the web of someones boat, out of admiration, or even just in discussion.
Whole different animal when it's done to misrepresent what it is, in order to promote a product...
Thought you may be 'interested' in that JP.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 11th, '08, 12:23

I have mixed feelings about them using B31's to sell the new boat. most of their pics are of old boats, but don't acknowledge that fact. I feel that is misleading at best.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 11th, '08, 12:58

they could probably do a good business selling parts, imaging buying one of thier decks to replace a old, cracked gelcoat deck with old windows!

it is odd that they show all 31 berts?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 11th, '08, 13:04

Sorry-If it's fully cored, wait a few years before you buy one. Remember the Black Watch hulls? Beautiful looking, but most waterlogged now. Walter

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 11th, '08, 13:11

that was my point.....thanks but no thanks

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 11th, '08, 13:17

You gotta admit...it's one Nice Looking Boat!

They are comparing to the 31 Bertram I would assume, I say this because their add/web site shows 31 Bertrams. I say assume because the numbers they produce are not 31 Bertram numbers:

Better Range...20gph vs 50gph what are we comparing exactly...diesel cruising to WOT with gassers?

Better Speed...40knts vs 12knts... The 453's did better then 12 knts

Stronger design...uh my boat is coming up on it's 47th birthday.

Lifetime hull warrantee...see last comment

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 11th, '08, 14:27

Lifetime hull warranty on a cored hull??? Maybe their lifetime, not yours.

UV

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 11th, '08, 14:41

Pound a cored hull like you pound a 31 Bertram in a rough sea and the stresses and strains of a hull within a hull will eventually create a weeping area somewhere, however small. Hell, an unsealed screw hole can start it. I know there are many cored hulls out there, but from an "I don't know who you are" company in a foreign country, it's a big risk to take for your $350,000 investment. Why pay for an imitation when you can have the real thing completely restored for less than that...with customization. My opinion...but then again, I'm prejudiced. Walter

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Dec 11th, '08, 16:42

You gotta give the guy some credit for having the biggest cahonies I've ever seen.

I can't believe he didn't think he would be beaten up here, but then again he did build the friggin thing.

I don't own a 31 but if I did I'd be pissed at him using my boat on his site with or without credits.
Anyone not knowing what they were looking at would assume they produced all the boats on the Web-Site.
Walter was right on regarding what you can buy for 100k less..
Sea Nile comes to mind..I would rather have a restored original and never a cored hull again ..been there done that.

I'm curious to see if he gets a "letter" from Ferretti / Bertram

Pretty boat though ..But we all know that...

Ray

neil · Post by **neil** » Dec 11th, '08, 17:41

i feel the same way you do tuna

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Dec 11th, '08, 18:13

I think they have balls to use pictures of other people's B31's, but I don't know if Bertram had a patent on the B31 Hull or not, or if it expired? or a copyright infringement? guess we fixin to find out soon enough you think?

DQ

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 11th, '08, 18:23

many boats have been splashed, there is not much that you can do about it.

They should however take the pictures of the originals off thier site, its misleading and to put it bluntly quite shady.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 11th, '08, 18:28

I spent over 40 years in the advertising business. Use a picture without signed permission AND payment (even it's only $1) to the photographer and the person or owner of the property pictured and you're a set-up for a legal suit you WILL lose. The reason this outfit may feel it can get away with it is because it's not in the United States and Bahamian courts can probably be bought. Ferretti may have the bucks to take them on if they think it's worth it. A U.S. Dealer would be crazy to risk selling them. Walter

yachts101 · Post by **yachts101** » Dec 11th, '08, 18:41

Gentlemen, the pictures of the other boats, not the Nassau 3204 are being removed from their website immediately. Sorry, you are correct they should have come off when the Nassau 3204 came online. Those boats were not meant to represent the Nassau 3204; they are all very fine vessels.
About the cored hull, if you know about cored construction, anyplace you install a thru-hull fitting, rudder post, shaft log or even a screw for a hinge, the core is tapered back (removed) from those areas so water intrusion is impossible. This is how it should be done though that is not always the case with other builders but is the way the Nassau 3204 was built. The resin used, Hydropel vinylester has a much tighter molecular bond than polyester resin which makes it blister proof and is as strong as or stronger than epoxy resin. The man behind this boats construction had only one intension, to build the best, strongest and lightest hull he could in the shape of what he believed to be the best hull design ever. This of course is why we wanted to show it first to others who feel the same way about this boat.

neil · Post by **neil** » Dec 11th, '08, 19:02

looks like the faithful got his attention

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Dec 11th, '08, 19:23

Damn that was quick.....

OK Who's' next..??

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Dec 11th, '08, 19:32

Not quick enough, Hey UV wanna pick some fruit.... Got an easy one for them lawyer types......... Image used without expressed or written permission, heck think may dog has some bad feelings about it as well.

Even got a screen capture of the sight, should be a slam dunk!

Can I get on the mean team now?

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:11

Nah, JP, it will take care of itself with the cored hull. These guys just have not done their homework on the B31 if they are gonna copy it.....what is the one thing we all know the boat needs to ride the best in rought seas????? 'c'on Faithful, off your asses and think...... WEIGHT. The boat need more weight overall and mostly up front. A cored hull B31 will beat the crap outta you in small headseas....Many of us have put a half ton of lead shot in the bow and it does a world of good....the best riding B31s are the ones with 3208 Cats at 2,400# a side or Capy with those big ole 6-53 old slingin' dump truck motors.

At 10,500# stock, that is very light for the size boat. I have mine loaded up to about 13,000 with 6BTA Cummins, a big genset, half tower, etc and it could still use a ton of lead in the bows in a head sea.

UV

JK · Post by JK » Dec 11th, '08, 20:20

I see a lot of our 31 Berts all over their website, including several of Buddy Boy. Anyway, I think it's great these boats and the design gets so much attention. I can see a bit of each redo in these "new boats" and aside from the obvious weight and coring it doesn't look like anything incredible or special has been done. Fish boxes look just like mine, center mounted GPS like Jimmy G's as well as a few others, taller bridge panels like Capt Pat has done, etc.

Wonder what magic Bob Lico could work with a cored light weight "31 Bertram?"

--JK

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:25

I have to agree with Vic, from the looks of the "production facilities" and the "skilled craftsmen", it will probably sort itself out all by itself...and soon

I especially like the shot of the interior mold being turned..

Was that a 2x4 or 2x6 ??

I'm sure I'll get crap for this but sorry I couldn't resist...

It just pisses me off when someone tries to get away with this type of stuff..

nic · Post by **nic** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:51

Yachts, there is a reason why the core is removed where a fitting is to penetrate....and it gives you a clue why cored hulls are not popular on a site that would have several thousand "boating-years" experience amongst its supporters.

I don't want to be harsh but there is no need to say "if you know about cored construction"...most of us do and agree with Randall's concise comment. If you want to inform us let us know the core material used and I hope for your sake it is not a foam of any type...here is a clue - shear strength.

Passing off Bertram 31s as associated with your product shows poor judgement, our back-lash is quite restrained so far by comparison to those with a commercial interest.

Whilst it's mildly flattering that someone would take the trouble to re-build Ray Hunt's 1959 unpatented design today, (that we have all sought out to restore at great cost and enjoy to great benefit), it is a patently dopey business proposition...as is the restoration of our boats. So I presume you guys are doing it just for love, same as us, so good luck to you.

Nic
(25 years in the business...8 years out)

[/u]

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:56

This shot form their newsletter page looks like all Bertrams to me.
http://www.bright-side.net/newsletter/

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:58

The thing that alarmed me right off the bat (besides all the pics of B31's) is that on the website, they avoid the word "Bertram" like it was herpes, or something worse.
Which, to me,says you're trying to stay under the radar of Bertram. Because sites like Google, I believe, pick up the key words (for the websearch) from the text on each site. Thus the Nassau 3204 will never pop up on any keyword search for "bertram", "bertram31", etc...
Now we all know this boat is a take off, tribute, immitation, homage- call it what you will of the B31- no disputing that. And properly mentioning that on their site (with all permissions, usage rights etc) would only serve to help them get more attention... and potentially more buis.
SO, I think there's only one reason why the they're treating the "B" word like a bad case of the clap, they're not sure if they're quite legal with all this. Ouch.

Walter,
Only the boat is called Nassau, they're located in Tampa...

JP,
Don't think you've got much to stand on, other than being able to make the image(s) come down off the site. The avalability of images on the web has really changed the whole world of usage rights...
Unless the pic was watermarked with a Â© symbol, or had copyright info in the image properties, not much you can do. I guess the only thing that would come into play is they sure as hell aren't able to come up with a "property release" with your signature on it, same thing as a model release, but dealing with property. You definatley got 'em there... and the releases only apply to advertorial material, not editorial stuff... and these guys are definatley out to sell boats.

Yacht101,
I really think it's a cool boat...The core issue aside. I'd love to check it out someday. I hope ya'll get you're act together and re-approach all this correctly.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Dec 11th, '08, 20:58

Vicroy wrote:Lifetime hull warranty on a cored hull??? Maybe their lifetime, not yours.

UV

More like when it fails they will tell you it's lifetime is over?

Terry Frank · Post by **Terry Frank** » Dec 11th, '08, 22:29

Harv,

That picture that you speak of is a NC Bertam get together. I for get who the lead boat is..maybe Tommy Drake, but the second boat is Buddy Boy with Capt Patrick and Bruce and the third boat is me.

br,

Terry

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Dec 11th, '08, 22:51

Terry Frank wrote:Harv,

That picture that you speak of is a NC Bertam get together. I for get who the lead boat is..maybe Tommy Drake, but the second boat is Buddy Boy with Capt Patrick and Bruce and the third boat is me.

br,

Terry

I knew that!! Did anybody else?

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 11th, '08, 23:55

Yeah, and actually- that NC gathering shot they're using as the opener on their home page is a Â©'ed image...

Notice the way Capt.Pat correctly uses the shot, then list's credits for both the author & photographer, and goes even further to provide live clickable links...
http://www.bertram31.com/nc_b31/index.html

Whereas they list nothing, furthermore giving the false notion that these are nassau32 boats. And that all the work done to each one of these Bertrams, was done by them...gall....

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Dec 11th, '08, 23:59

Speaking of Capt Patrick...... I'd love to hear his take on this...

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 12th, '08, 00:04

Just noticed, on the newsletter link that Harv posted...
They even went through the trouble to photoshop out the "NCBoatingLifestyle" font at the bottom corners of ea. page, and the inset photos- quite poorly I might add.
Jeee-sus...if that aint an unknowing admission of wrong doing, I don't know what is.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 12th, '08, 00:22

It was the hardest thing to explain to clients that you just cannot use any picture given you in an ad, brochure or tv spot. It was even harder if it was a new client in a startup mode with budget problems. As expensive and difficult as it is to find the right photographer, set up a shooting, pay the participants, deal with weather etc., etc., etc., when it's over, they're your pictures of your product...and a lot cheaper than legal fees associated with a suit of any sort. A professional advertising person is obligated to tell you these things because as the laws are now, the ad agency is equally liable as the client for the product it produces. If a client "forces" you to make a claim he can't substantiate, you both can get sued if you do it. I suspect these were "client created" pieces aided by a young computer capable Art Director or someone who thought he was. Walter

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 12th, '08, 08:28

having actually been involved in copyright battles it all boils done to this.........the copyright does not exist unless a judge says it does....and then only till the appeal starts. you can have your copyright registered in black and white in a book in the library of congress where you ,or anyone, can look at it with their own eyes(like me).....and it means nothing unless a judge upholds it.

its always a trade off between defending in court seeking damages and letting it slide.....the trespassers know this.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Dec 12th, '08, 09:29

All the big Vikings have cored bottoms and have had them cored for years. Don't know if they will hold up; but so far I have seen or heard no complaints.

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Dec 12th, '08, 09:39

I don't understand the need to core below the waterline----on a boat like the 31--how much weight do they really save if they did below waterline in solid glass.

I think everything above the chine could be cored with no problems---not sure if there would be any problems 20 years from now.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 12th, '08, 09:47

i'm sure it can be done and has.....but its just not common sense....its like an oreo cookie....very stable in the box but once you apply some torque to the two outside skins......well....think about bashing your way into a six foot head sea.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 12th, '08, 10:09

there is nothing wrong with cored hulls, solid glass is old thinking.

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Dec 12th, '08, 10:48

Randall,

I'll be looking at orea cookies in a whole different lght now.

Dick

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 12th, '08, 11:01

That old thinking lasts long. If it didn't, this site wouldn't exist.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 12th, '08, 11:17

im sure if they knew that they could put half the resin and glass into the boat they would have

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 12th, '08, 12:19

If they have agreed to remove the images what law suit could there be? What would the damages be that brought the case to court?
Especially a Federal court, I think that the damages threshold is pretty high for federal jurisdiction. Lawyers, please speak up.
Bottom line is I does not make a very good impression when your first foray into the market is this botched and sort of sleazy. Maybe they know boat building, but business not so much. I wonder how well they would honor a contract.

Best of luck to them.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 12th, '08, 12:39

Speaking of Capt Patrick...... I'd love to hear his take on this...

I've watched this thread develop with keen interest over the past 24+ hours, allowing the Faithful to do what they do best: Sniff out Bull Shit...

First, anyone even vaguely interested in the 31 Bertram will recognize the Nassau 32 as a direct clone of the B31 profile. So any use at all of real 31 Bertrams is, as Nic politely pointed out, pretty dumb.

Hmmm, cored hulls? The marine industry has tried for several decades to develop an array of cored, or partially cored, hulls. Of all the structural elements of a completed boat, the single most important structure is, of course, the hull.

There are literally hundreds of materials that might be considered for use as core material, from foams, woods, putties, fiberglass mats, to plastic and metal honey combs. For auxiliary components of a boat these cored structures can be fine and great weight savers.

The central weak link in cored composites is, again as Nic pointed out & Randy's analogy to the Oreo cooky, the shear strength between the skins and core material. Closed cell foam cores, like Divinycell, are easily damaged by impact or torsion. While the bond strength between the skin and core might not be broken, the adjacent cells of the foam can be ruptured. effectively causing a failure.

Foams like Corecell, Klegecell, and Airex have a much more plastic nature and are tougher, more resilient, and resist failure of the core, leaving only the skin to core bond as a primary issue.

Hydropel vinylester resin is a relatively new resin that, as yachts101 states, is very comparable to epoxy resin, with superior adhesive qualities, far exceeding that o polyester resins. As the name implies, Hydropel, (short for water repellent), resin is formulated to greatly reduce osmotic transfer of water reaching the core.

Robbie is correct in his brief declaration that "there is nothing wrong with cored hulls", but with the inclusion of: ONLY when technique, material choice, and design meets a point of excellence. Very few boat manufactures can achieve that point of excellence due to the extreme expense and expertise involved. Notably, Garlington Landeweer Marine, Inc. is one of the most successful in cored hull technology.

Craig has a valid point in that the small foot print of the B31 design perhaps reduces the overall savings in resin and glass over that of a cored bottom. For much larger hulls the savings would be significant. Again, technique, material choice, and design are very critical.

So, back to the Nassau 32, a lot more information as to the techniques, material choices, and design of their hull is needed in order to make an intelligent assessment as to the quality of the hull.

I feel that the biggest mistake made by yachts101, was in how brazenly he tossed out the Nassau 32 & their ill conceived website as his first post on a website known for pouncing on chinks in armor. (Which begs the question of where is our Mean Team Leader been hiding through this discussion??).

Like some others here, I wish the guys success with the Nassau 32; what I see in their images is impressive, but also agree that this endeavor can only be a labor of love. I too doubt that there will ever be a dimes worth of profit made. Bertram, through both private and partnerships failed to ever show black ink on a single B31 throughout it's long production run. Norberto's bean counters nixed the concept of profitability when thinking of re-introducing the B31 in new form.

The underlaying principle of "One can only be first, all others are losers" comes into play. An original is always more sought after than a copy...

As to copyrights and brand infringement, the copyrights on the B31 hull design has long since expired. As long as they, in no way refer/infer to the word "Bertram" or ever display the Bertram logo, the Bertram company will not be concerned with their endeavor. There never were any patents issued on the boat design, but also would have expired.

To litigiously pursue the misuse of images on the Internet, at least in this case, would be like pissin' up a rope. However, the removal of ALL real Bertram images from their website would certainly be appreciated by all...

Best regards,

Patrick

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 12th, '08, 12:55

Lawyer speaking.......patent, trademark, and copyright issues are considered "federal questions" and the federal courts have subject matter jurisdiction regardless of the amount in controversy.

I beleive the hull form for the B31 was indeed patented....I have some old "hydroform" brochures from Bertram that state so, but have not checked, but anyway, the patent protection would have long ago expired. Trademarks and copyrights don't expire like patents, with few expections. Copyrights generally expire after 100 years as I remember.

Anyway no need to make a federal case out of a sow's ear.....remember, what's time to a hog??

UV

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 12th, '08, 14:17

Thanks Capt P and Vic.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Dec 12th, '08, 14:36

I feel that the biggest mistake made by yachts101, was in how brazenly he tossed out the Nassau 32 & their ill conceived website as his first post on a website known for pouncing on chinks in armor. (Which begs the question of where is our Mean Team Leader been hiding through this discussion??).

Just laying low....... The guy probably loves the 31 as much as we do. I wish him luck. I think that he would do better as a responsive, English speaking, Cabrerra....... especially trying to come to market in these uncertain times with a 32 foot boat at Cabo prices.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 12th, '08, 17:04

I agree with mike. I think it is a good looking boat which seems pretty well built (cored hull question aside). I like the fact that our old boats are still deemed worthy of being copied. I hope that Yacht101 will come back and discuss all of this with us. We all know that when you approach this group with a product you better have your flame proof underwear on and your facts straight.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Dec 12th, '08, 17:26

CaptPatrick wrote:

As of this posting, our Bertrams are still posted on their site. In addition, if you look it is easy to spot logos on the pictures. Here's one case in point. Look at the pilaster step with the Bertram eagle in the middle.
http://www.bright-side.net/marine/bsmarine_035.htm

Check out this boat, it's was just built.

Check out this boat, it's was just built.

Nassau 3204

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