20'bertam moppie

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 20th, '08, 20:47

:cry: this 20'moppie has me pulling my hair out.there is no way in hell you can put a 525hp sc mercruiser in that engine compartment of a moppie made into a baron.to clear the engine compartment covers you have to mount the mercruiser engine 1" off the bottom and the supercharger sticks out the top with either stock carbs or fuel injection.
i cannot come even close to the "x" dimention needed for the bravo three drive.rocket can you shed some light on this,i know you once posted a big block 20' bertram but the supercharger add to much height and i cannot remove,the engine (piston compresion , cam,etc) is build for a "huffer"
what are your or anybody else for that matter feelings about a bracket and a 300hp suzuki 4stroke we have 6 left (out of a trailer truck full )and i can buy it "right".do you think i would destroy the look of a 20'bertram is sure is a hell of alot easier and much better on gas probaly 60mph+ base on another with a 250hp e-tec at 52mph.i can put the tank in without tabbing and move fore and aft for perfect trim.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 20th, '08, 21:20

Bob,

Whats the weight of that suzuki? Could be a little ass heavy, despite the added bouyancy of the bracket...
I'm not a big fan of outboards on any of the Ray Hunt Bertrams, but thats just me. Admittedly, some guys are really doing some nice conversions on their B25's, and B20's... I guess that on a Moppie, it's not soooo bad. But, if you took the time, money, and effort to convert it to a Baron, then I'd say an outboard is outta the question.
If you're ok with 300hp, why not put one of the newer 300something hp GM5.7's in there?

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Aug 21st, '08, 06:29

Bob,

Here's some thoughts, Merc still has some of the 383 stroker motors available and that would make a little B20 fly. Even if that monster motor did fit, you'd be way ass heavy.

As for an outboard on a B20, I think it's good for a moppie or b-mar, but not for a barron or barron copy.

-jd

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 21st, '08, 09:14

700 lb outboard hanging on the back of that thing?
Bob you been licking too many electric outlets!

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 21st, '08, 10:08

You'll regret it Bob. You're too much of a perfectionist.

ZeroCavity · Post by **ZeroCavity** » Aug 21st, '08, 14:03

Jareb · Post by **Jareb** » Aug 21st, '08, 14:17

Man that looks nice!
John

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 21st, '08, 19:46

300hp suzuki weights 550lbs and that small block (383) and a 525 hp are pretty close in weight big block 525 has tubular(stelling)headers,alluminum cyliderheads, alluminum intake,no fuel pump, alluminum water pump,aluminum racing oilpan,etc.the suzuki is about half the weight of the 383"/bravo 3 set up.the finish set up in outboard version would have the wrap around rear seat at the trasom.elimnating the traditional engine hatches.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 21st, '08, 21:29

suzuki 300 is 604-615lbs advertised weight dry, in real world thats almost 700lbs hanging wayyy back off the transom

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 21st, '08, 22:28

robbie this is the short shaft but either way if you look at the coversion of a 20'bertram on the bertram 25 web site with a 250hp e-tec the numbers look real good and like i said i can move the fuel tank forward.
thank you guys for all the inputs but bear in mind this is a limited use boat built for my son.the 525hp engine was avaible at a price you can`t refuse and the 300hp is 14thousand ready to run.my first choice would be a yanmar 260hp diesel/bravo-3 but there are to many problems with this power comb. as of this date.i did not covert the moppie to a baron yet because i wanted to finalize the powerplant the mercruser 525hp is here to take measurements and a wood mockup this is how i came to the conclusion that it just won`t fit.the jupiter bracket is at the mariner to trial fit.buju a gmc 350 would work but again that is a over the counter buy.we have no small block freebee`s this year.on the subject ;the small blocks seem to hold up much better than big blocks with the fuel crisis(achohol).

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Aug 22nd, '08, 00:15

Bob - I wonder if the Baron deck height is taller than a moppie ? I can get down and do some measurements. Would an arneson give you a lower x dimension? I love the idea of 525 HP in that hull - I got 320 and running it at WOT is so easy, no skill required (which matches up nicely for me!) I would like to put more HP in mine as well, so I'm happy to do some homework if it would help. I guess dry sump is not a help as bottom clearance is not an issue - x dimension is. It might be blasphemy, but a scoop of bubble on the hatch, or do you want a sleeper?

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Aug 22nd, '08, 01:01

Bob,

the 20 Moppie I rode at Atlantic City with the 220 Yanmar and Bravo III duoprop was pretty sweet.

guy · Post by **guy** » Aug 22nd, '08, 04:58

Come on Rocket ,show us another pic,so we can all cream in our jeans.I love that boat.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 22nd, '08, 07:36

bob- 250etec ho weights under 510lbs, 100 pounds off the back of the boat is huge in my opinion.

I went through all this picking a motor for our whaler project, weight was a big issue so we went with the 250 etec. It is a great motor and the owner does not drive it gently.

im going to go off topic a little here and put some non-bertram pics up so if that offends anyone I apologize in advance!

we have since added 4" of setback and raised the motor, and this winter the decks are coming out and we are putting stringers and bulkheads in so he can take the thing airborne once in a while

we also changed the bar as well

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 23rd, '08, 15:10

What the heck does he do in that thing?

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 23rd, '08, 15:12

Rocket wrote:Bob - I wonder if the Baron deck height is taller than a moppie ? I can get down and do some measurements. Would an arneson give you a lower x dimension? I love the idea of 525 HP in that hull - I got 320 and running it at WOT is so easy, no skill required (which matches up nicely for me!) I would like to put more HP in mine as well, so I'm happy to do some homework if it would help. I guess dry sump is not a help as bottom clearance is not an issue - x dimension is. It might be blasphemy, but a scoop of bubble on the hatch, or do you want a sleeper?

Rocket- Bob is going to hang an outboard off the transom, somehow your suggestion seems far less blasphemous.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 23rd, '08, 20:47

come on bob- build a scoop for the thing, it will be better then a ugly suzuki hanging off the back!

jspiezo- he wanted the boat to take the kids tubing, but now he just uses it to hot rod around the bay.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 24th, '08, 07:33

Raybo Marine NY wrote:come on bob- build a scoop for the thing, it will be better then a ugly suzuki hanging off the back!

jspiezo- he wanted the boat to take the kids tubing, but now he just uses it to hot rod around the bay.

That's a serious tubing boat. Love the standing brace.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 24th, '08, 13:27

buju you have your act together yes the 2' bracket gives bouyancy but most important it puts the prop 2' from the airated water coming off the bottom of the boat at the transom.also the 2' act as a longer running plane making the 20'betram feel like 22'.as to the other guys comment they have no clue but i will give you a hint take a good look at the suzuki 300hp water pickup,lower unit and prop.lets see your are cocerned about 100lbs ok nobody can drive the boat except a child ---no passengers.should have used a challenger21' instead of a "brick".
rocket the 525hp mercruser is the baby high performance engine very docile this is entrance level and they go to 1200hp off the shelve.all hp mercrusers have dry oil sump.the problem with the scoop is the baron has a split engine cover that is rounded to meet the rear deck a scoop on a race boat design is a one piece unit with the p-51 mustang fighter plane shape held in with race pins.don`t want to go this route.i will take pictures of the 525hp and post.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 25th, '08, 08:58

Bob we go through this alot with different boats, the bracket will not have enough bouyancy to counter the weight of the bracket itself and the motor to make the boat sit as if it came from the factory.

If the boat is going to be a trailer boat then it might not be so bad, but on some boats- and I will admit to not knowing the deck or drain system of your 20'- it puts the drains below waterline and now you have a boat that does not self bail being left in a slip- so take all that into consideration.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 25th, '08, 15:06

rocket here is a photograph of the 525hp;

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Aug 25th, '08, 17:32

Bob, that is very sexy - I can't believe that it won't fit. Can you put a shortie lower unit on the drive?

As far as the hatch is concerned - the split hatch is actually a bit of a pain - If you had a single rear hinged hatch on gas shocks, you could do your P51 scoop and fit that beast in the engine bay. I would love to hear your results about 525 hp in that hull.

patrickgold · Post by **patrickgold** » Aug 26th, '08, 08:59

To give you a little reference on the weight of an outboard, we have a 1965 Bahia Mar with a Honda BF150. The wet weight of the BF150 is around 500 pounds and our boat is self bailing. I would be surprised if a 300 Suzuki ( only weighing 100 pounds more) would make it so it won't self bail at the dock. A 300 Etec is the same weight as our Honda, so you would definitely be self bailing. A 250 Suzuki will be the next engine we buy for our Bertram.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 26th, '08, 09:18

Patrick-What is the performance with 150 hp? I'd like to look at that new 4 cylinder Volvo 3.0 fuel injected I/O setup that's rated at 150 hp also. Walter

patrickgold · Post by **patrickgold** » Aug 26th, '08, 10:59

EPA rates the BF150 at 165hp (tested at the prop). That 15hp doesn't make much difference. With two people WOT is 40 mph (give or take two mph for conditions). Loaded down ready to fish with three or four people we top out at 36mph. We are turning a 19 pitch Vengence prop 5800 rpms WOT.

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Aug 26th, '08, 13:35

Walter,
I have a 1998 3.0 lx in my b20 bahia mar and she pushes it to 32 mph and that's with a bad bottom that needs to be completely stripped ......

I also think she is a bit under propped as she only gets to about 4300

That's also with 40 gallons of fuel...and 1 pob

Ray

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 26th, '08, 13:54

i guess i should have mention the self bailing cockpit goes into a scupper which is piped thru the bracket and out the stern of the bracket.o.e.m. for everglades and jupiter.never a problem.the reason i laught at the 100lbs between the suzuki and the e-tec is -HELLO 4stroke capable of a bigger diameter prop and more torque.you can`t match the lower unit of the suzuki unless you are dealing with a 700pound race hull then mercury if center console 4stroke only option.34'&38' ceter consoles can take advantage of the yamaha 350hp.we have one here with triple 350hp "bump" to 400hp.talk about heavy! 750lbs each this 38' jupiter does near 70mph and cruise at 53mph.went to the "deep" last week in 2 hours about 85 miles out of fire island inlet.

J Graham · Post by **J Graham** » Aug 26th, '08, 15:11

A 502 in a 20' bertram?????????????????

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 26th, '08, 16:39

You seem to have all the answers Bob, so need for us!

But to further explain- when you have a deck LOWER then the waterline of the boat you no longer have a boat that bails on its own, there will be water on the decks and then you are relying on bilgepumps to keep you afloat if there is a storm or your drain clogs.

Im sure on the Jupiter, which seems to be the best boat in the world according to your statements, the decks are HIGHER then the waterline, so yes plumbing drains out the boat is not an issue.

We did a older Mako over the winter that had a converted full transom with 2 4 stroke motors hanging off the transom, the boat would fill with water and if the bilge pump would have failed the boat would sink.
We raised the deck almost 2 inches because the owner did not have the funds to put a single motor or 2 lighter motors.

I just dont understand your point of the thread if people offer advice and all you do is laugh at us?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 26th, '08, 17:11

yea but robbie i still no nothing about boat painting and a mere rookie at fiberglass work.i just happen to be around these outboards and it wears on you don`t really care one way or another just trying to be helpful with ideas that have been built and proven to work.we have damm near every center console made at the 3 locations it is just easy to phot those on the hard.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 26th, '08, 17:16

robbie those scuppers are one way stailess i don`t know who makes them but i can find out if you want to help your mako friend.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 26th, '08, 17:37

I am totally lost. What does any of this have to do with weteher or not to hang an outboard off a B20 Baron?

Even more confusing, what the heck do those photos have to do with a Mako's deck height?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 26th, '08, 19:18

jspiezo, this is what I got so far

The extra motor weight shoves the Mako's scuppers underwater, so the deck will not drain at rest.

The deck was made higher to compensate for the extra weight and now allows the deck to drains out thru the scuppers. It no longer relies on the pumps to remove rainwater, or a wave breaking over the side etc.

What that has to do with the Baron, well Bob has several options, some of which will add a substantial amount of weight aft and Raybo was explaining the deck will not drain if it is below the waterline. Pictures of nicely powered Non Bertrams have been flying back and forth to explain their points, with a few real good shots shots of Zero Cavities Bertram to start off. (Thank you for those Bertram shots, very nice pictures)

As to the parts about the "brick" and kids driving without passengers...I'd have to guess it has to do with the lower end sitting too low... but I'll conceed, I am pretty much lost there. But I do intend to tune in tommorrow for the conclusion, same Bertram Time same Bertram Channel.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Aug 26th, '08, 20:14

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Aug 26th, '08, 20:43

I think Bob was just venting about his issues trying to shoe horn a motor into his boat.

Bob- I know who makes those scuppers on the boat, I have seen them before. The Mako is now fine, we not only raised the deck we removed over 150 pounds, which on that boat was huge. The owner is beyond happy that his boat can sit in the middle of a terrible Florida storm and stay floating without relying on his bilgepumps.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 26th, '08, 20:46

Tunawish-Is that with the Mercruiser 3.0 that's rated at 135 hp? Walter

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 26th, '08, 21:06

sim you got it as for the child explanation in the post i was referring to the concern of 100pounds differance between the e-tec 250hp and the 300hp suzuki.that weight is like having a extra person the weight of a child aboard ok.the photo. of the stern of the center console show how the builder ran a pipe from the inside scupper of the boat THRU the 2'bracket with a one way scupper at the water edge of the stern thus engineering a foolproof solution to draining water from a self bailing cockpit while the boat is at rest.under power this one way supper is not necessary.the brick or ironing boart is referance to a whaler in the great south bay (not a lake).i don`t have opinion nor do i care about outboards but the fact of hanging a 300hp susuki on the back of a 20' bertram brought up the concern of the cockpit not being able to drain that is why i posted the picture of the cc solution.i hope this clears up my post .seems like i cannot take any short cuts when i write the original subject becomes lost.the pictures also show the lower units of the susuki ---far more streamlined then the e-tec but most inportant swing a 16" prop rather then the 15 1/4" of the e-tec that is were the big differance in performance comes from mounted on a 20'bertram which is pretty heavy as compare to high performance 20' boats.the 4-stroke would give better performance over a two stroke because of the increase in torque.

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Aug 27th, '08, 08:16

Walter..

Yes...

bertram31.com

20'bertam moppie

20'bertam moppie

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