High tide vs lookout window frames

Tonym2112 · Post by **Tonym2112** » Oct 24th, '21, 12:13

I’m going to replace the aluminum window frames on my 31. Any thoughts on which company makes the better fiberglass frames? Any video of the installation process out there? I’m looking at high tide or lookout frames.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 25th, '21, 05:54

I haven’t seen either in person. I did speak with Broduras Rose and they can ship a complete set to you for installation. A few months back they had a couple of boats in the yard they were doing and sent me pictures. I believe they were boats being redone by Bayliss but I may be mistaken.

In the past I believe that may have offered windows that opened but not sure if they still do. The option was plexus glass or a premium for safety glass.

Two of the lurkers I’ve spoken to who don’t post often looked into both options more then I did, maybe they have further details.

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Oct 25th, '21, 11:03

Peter---are you doing the frames as well?

jrmoro · Post by **jrmoro** » Oct 25th, '21, 14:51

I received an estimate last year from Broduras for the window frames. I elected to go with the solid window, new deck with fish boxes & transom fish box from Hightide. I placed my order in January. To date I have only received the transom box. Danny keeps in touch but sounds like he has lost most of his help.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Oct 26th, '21, 04:57

Craig Mac wrote: ↑Oct 25th, '21, 11:03 Peter---are you doing the frames as well?

Not yet, I was considering it but it’s not in the budget. The windows and interior will be at a later date.

jayjays1 · Post by **jayjays1** » Dec 3rd, '23, 09:02

Do they offer options where both the front and side windows open? Also I need to look out of the front windows as it is a sedan.

franzmerenda · Post by **franzmerenda** » Dec 3rd, '23, 10:57

jayjays1 wrote: ↑Dec 3rd, '23, 09:02 Do they offer options where both the front and side windows open? Also I need to look out of the front windows as it is a sedan.

No: both of them offer fixed plexiglass.
The full kit, plexi included is close to 30 grand; it's not possible to fit the original aluminum window glasses.
It takes from 10 weeks (HighTide) to 4 months (Lookout) for delivery

francesco

jayjays1 · Post by **jayjays1** » Dec 4th, '23, 18:32

Ok good to know.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 6th, '23, 19:07

My understanding is they can accommodate side sliding window but not fronts. If you are going to spend that kind of money it would be worth looking into having lewmar make custom hatch style glass that does open into one of these new frames.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 7th, '23, 11:51

Peter- If I was spending that kind of money, I'd have it built the way I want. If going to install a hatch in place of the opening windows...why not glass the front incorporating a hatch, portholes, or vents into the design?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 7th, '23, 13:37

years ago i built those side window frames and greylight 14 tinted plexiglass using the old frames as templates and after a few years removed and gave to somebody on long island , i replaced with tempered 1/4" limousine glass actually almost clear inside the cabin and total blackout looking from outside. i used same glass in rear windows and cabin door about 10 times the price of safety glass but at the prices you guys are talking about less than $5000.00 for all custom made from your template (cardboard)

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 7th, '23, 13:55

Bob- The flat window panels and tracks are a snap, the issue for me is the curved corner sections. I'm 90% sure I can replicate...it's the 10% what if I cannot that gets me crazy. Maybe I'll make a form of the curved window in place and try to replicate that before opening the can or worms...also known as 60 year old aluminum frames from a salt-water environment.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 7th, '23, 20:22

Carl I’ve seen some good YouTube videos on making forms and molds to bend corner type windows. Seems complicated but doable.

When the time and money are right and I have to spend $30k plus inflation on fiberglass window frames damn right I’m splurging for windows that open. I don’t go out on the boat to be in a cave or sit in air conditioning.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 7th, '23, 21:32

I always like the ones on Zero Cavity. But then again, they don't open.

We haven't opened our front windows in years. Jamed the side windows closed the first month we had the boat. They kept sliding open when running and everything inside would get wet.

I would only put in windows that open, as long as I could keep them from leaking when closed.

franzmerenda · Post by **franzmerenda** » Dec 8th, '23, 05:13

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 7th, '23, 11:51 Peter- If I was spending that kind of money, I'd have it built the way I want. If going to install a hatch in place of the opening windows...why not glass the front incorporating a hatch, portholes, or vents into the design?

Carl,

MacDougalls made it and the result is not astonishing (IMHO)

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 8th, '23, 07:54

Francesco,
Yes, from inside the cabin, I do like the look of those hatches. They open it up with additional visibility and fresh air. Where I differ from your opinion is the outside look of the hatches. What I see are hatches cut in where a windshield went, in the process losing the sleek modern lines offered when glassing in the windshield.
In any case, even if I did like that look it does not work for me. Yes, in the cabin that could be done...but my Express has a 2nd windshield and curved panel setup for the helm. I prefer to run the boat with the front window open instead of looking through a salted window, I'm also a fan of the breeze.

franzmerenda · Post by **franzmerenda** » Dec 8th, '23, 10:37

These guys here in Italy made a nice job on a boat that by the way, belongs to an American owner.
They thermoformed plexiglass panels on jigs, sealing them onto a fiberglass structure, which honestly I don't know if made out of a mold or as Cooley Marine did for their boat; again no opening windows.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 8th, '23, 18:52

When you look at some of the new boats out there these days, including sail boats. The technology has really advanced.

I’m almost certain you could get side windows that electronically roll down and front windows that hinge open on actuators. All with a seemless exterior look.

Not that I want to spend that kind of money or add that complexity but it’s certainly doable.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 8th, '23, 18:58

franzmerenda wrote: ↑Dec 8th, '23, 05:13 Carl,

MacDougalls made it and the result is not astonishing (IMHO)

That was an awfully done one, doesn’t even have side windows. Lewmar can definetily build a window that would be the dimensions of our front swinging one and fit into the newer fiberglass frames.

Like this
https://www.lewmar.com/content/flush-ha ... ard-colour

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 9th, '23, 10:17

I like those Peter, they do open up design possibilities.

franzmerenda · Post by **franzmerenda** » Dec 9th, '23, 11:24

PeterPalmieri wrote: ↑Dec 8th, '23, 18:58 ...Lewmar can definetily build a window that would be the dimensions of our front swinging one and fit into the newer fiberglass frames.

That's why, to my opinion, the frame that was made by Lookout, unfortunately with no mold available nowadays, is the best.
That trim inside, all around the front window frame, could easily fit the lewmar fiberglass frame

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 9th, '23, 23:06

But you do have a mold, the old window frame becomes the plug.

No doubt it’s alot of work, but 30k is a lot of money too.

franzmerenda · Post by **franzmerenda** » Dec 10th, '23, 05:33

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 9th, '23, 23:06
No doubt it’s alot of work, but 30k is a lot of money too.

It's an insane quantity of money Carl.

I'm working now with some mold-Maker here and we probably will put together some mold, most likely using the original windows as plugs; these guys gave me some rough figures and it seems that with the same amount of money, we could make both the plugs for frames and glasses, hopefully real glasses.
If the case, I'll save shipping costs and some 33% for custom duties...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 10th, '23, 08:20

I think I have gone full circle finding myself right where I started. Going full circle was helpful in realizing there are definite alternatives to reaching my goal. Seeing clearly out the helm windows, aesthetically pleasing, keeping same look and function with opening front window, not spending more then I feel the final product is worth to me.

Option one is to rebuild the existing frames. Strip clean, grind out corrosion and repair as needed. New glass and bend up acrylic curved side panels. Powder coat frames.

Option two is to build new frames. My options in order:
- buy, modify and build from available track
- fabricate my own alum track
- fabricate My own SS track
- fabricate frame in fiberglass
- pay for custom build

Third option, leave as is again. I don’t think that flies well as I’ve already started wire brushing n hitting hardware with penetrating oil. Going to be fun pulling cabin panels down to locate bolts holing windshield down.

Option four is remove helm windshield and redesign….I’ve seen it done squared off like the Bahia Mar, front fiberglass built up and go with canvas n eisenglass. I’m not a big express fan, but I still like the classic original look better…so this would be my least favorite option.

Down the road option for cabin front windows is remove the canvas wrap n glass it in.

Buying custom frames and modifying may have been a good option if the pricing was in another range. I won’t comment on it being insane as there is a ton of work in producing and talented people should be compensated for their time and abilities. I just cannot justify that cost for myself…and still not have what I want without modifying.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 10th, '23, 22:21

Carl

I would bet if you offered a good fiberglass guy the job, you could get it done for less than $30,000.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 12th, '23, 10:20

Is that less than 30k to replicate with windows and the knowledge that it fits as it should or just a fiberglass copy? I'm thinking a good portion of the cost is in the designing, mock-up, prototyping and installations to proof the item so most of the kinks are worked out.

I do agree with you Tony, but also looking at it from the other side a little. Yes, it's expensive, but it is more than just that fiberglass frame that is being bought, it is all the design work and time to perfect it so the customer buying just has to tweak the fit with the guidance available if needed.

LOL...sorry. My head is thinking about the people who come in wanting to have work done, telling me how simple of a job it is, that it will only take me a couple minutes...should they wait for it. They only brought $5 bucks, will that cover it? Maybe not exactly like that, but not too far off.

Enough rambling from me on this...

....would look sleek with the window hatch design Peter linked to.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 12th, '23, 14:19

Sooo...on facebook the curved windows were bent cold in place. Cold bend in place is an option that never occurred to me and something I will be trying. Still have to get the frames apart, but it does ease my mind having to heat n bend. I was afraid of getting plastic too hot...it bends nice, looks great and crazes up real quick. I didn't want to finish only to find out I had to redo.

So after lots of legwork and knowing exactly how I'm going to tackle a new road appears to be the new direction.

NICE

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » Dec 12th, '23, 19:34

Carl - I am in a similar situation so I will be watching a cheering from afar.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Dec 12th, '23, 19:51

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 12th, '23, 14:19 Sooo...on facebook the curved windows were bent cold in place. Cold bend in place is an option that never occurred to me and something I will be trying. Still have to get the frames apart, but it does ease my mind having to heat n bend. I was afraid of getting plastic too hot...it bends nice, looks great and crazes up real quick. I didn't want to finish only to find out I had to redo.

So after lots of legwork and knowing exactly how I'm going to tackle a new road appears to be the new direction.

NICE

Carl-I still have the original curved plexiglass corner windows for my B31 FBC in storage. You are welcome to them to use as a pattern if you would like. I assume they are the same as yours.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '23, 07:40

Doug,
I appreciate the offer! Thank you. If I have to destructively remove mine, I may take you up on it. I am still in the hopeful phase of thinking I can open up the frame to remove the panels intact.

So far wire brushing, penetrating oil, heat, and impact driver have not provided the slightest result. It's lousy trying to torque on a SS Philips head screw in old aluminum. So far the head remains intact but I see the handwriting appearing on the wall with me having to drill them out. That may even be a better solution when reassembling, through bolt with acorn nuts.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 13th, '23, 23:17

Carl

Early on I had ours apart to reseal them so they would stop leaking. The boat was maybe only 5 years old at the time. Snap a few bolts but was able to get replacements at that time from Bertram since they were still building the 31. The bolt head is a big oval and sits in a track. When the outer frame is removed, you can remove the snaped bolt from the frame by sliding it out of the track.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 14th, '23, 06:45

Thanks Tony- Removing the frame is a few steps ahead of where I am. I'm working on opening the frame to remove the curved side panels, maybe the front windows. I was hoping to lighten up the frame some and get an idea of how it's going to come apart before totally committing to the entire frame removal. That's going to be the headliner, bathroom panels, and side panels over the motor boxes all being removed...

Yes the Oval Head bolts / T-Bolts to hold the frame down in place...I expect to be ruining a few of those. On my last boat, I was able to buy some similar T-bolts and modify to work. I hope that's the same here.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 14th, '23, 09:43

Carl-

If you want to go cheap, this is what I did on the Anna E. If you want to do more work, I remember Capt. Pat posting a whole build project of fiberglassing up the existing front frames. I think it was for Buddy Boy.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2957&p=27005&hilit=windows#p27005

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 14th, '23, 15:25

Has anyone tried to make a mock up of the curved windows with plaster bandage?

They are sheets of fabric impregnated in plaster that, once wet, can take any shape. You can apply them on any surface and once dry they make a cast that can then be used as a mold for plexiglass which can be heated to shape on the mold.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 14th, '23, 15:36

Capt. Pat's approach (and it wasn't Buddy Boy):

https://bertram31.com/santiago/images/b ... index.html

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 15th, '23, 09:16

John-
Where did you find Captain Pats build on Santiagos boat? I had looked in building tips a couple times for ideas n info. One thing for sure, I'm not glassing the frames...well I say that now. Once things get going directions change. Captain Pat excelled in glasswork, it is not my strong point. I am better at the Sandblast, Grind, Weld n Grind n Weld n Grind and Machine and I deal with a Powder Coat shop...so I see that as my direction.
That said I really wanted to see what the actual stock frames look like free of the glass and trim...those pictures help tremendously, thank you for linking to them.

Yannis, Thank you! That was my original direction of molding the plastic windows. My first step after removing the frame n glass would have been to build a mold /cradle to form the bend. I may still have to do that and having a product like you mention would save lots of time. On Facebook a person cold fit the Lexan panel into the curved frame, secured with rivets, put trim back on calling it a day. I plan to try that option first. Only issue I saw was he went 3/16 on the panels, I believe they are 1/4". That said...this is my helm side windows, not the front cabin windows where they can see green water. If I see green water at my helm windows, I have much bigger problems than the curved windows giving out.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Dec 15th, '23, 15:15

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Dec 13th, '23, 23:17
The bolt head is a big oval and sits in a track. When the outer frame is removed, you can remove the snaped bolt from the frame by sliding it out of the track.

Tony, thank you for this gem of information which reminds me that after 25 years of ownership I can still learn new things about my Bertram 31. Oval head bolts in a track! I always assumed they were studs welded to the frame. I will file this knowledge along with the hinge effect of the front windows. For those not familiar with B31 front windows I say "effect" because there is no hinge, the interaction of the top of the window frame and the fixed frame act as a hinge. Lift the window up far enough and the window slides out which I discovered to my chagrin. The person who designed and probably fabricated these window frames was a mad genius of complex aluminum design and fabrication.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 15th, '23, 21:09

Doug

I believe they call them T bolts.

Like These but only in stainless.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/ha ... -slot-nuts

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 15th, '23, 23:06

Carl,

Hit this on you tube:

“Process of making unusual form for aquarium like a beautiful woman body”

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 16th, '23, 08:37

Amberjack wrote: ↑Dec 15th, '23, 15:15 ….thank you for this gem of information which reminds me that after 25 years of ownership

For those not familiar with B31 front windows I say "effect" because there is no hinge, the interaction of the top of the window frame and the fixed frame act as a hinge. Lift the window up far enough and the window slides out which I discovered to my chagrin.

And this is why I find this forum priceless. Talking about the project brings in new ideas with alternatives. And after 30 years of ownership I just found out how the front window is removed. I have been looked and looked for the hinge, it’s screws or rivets. My frames came painted…former steward painted everything that didn’t move and most things that did. I assumed the hardware would be found under his paint which I painted over. So, they lift n slide out…like trim tabs.

That helps alot as I wanted to remove as much weight as I could before pulling the frames off. Thanks.

T-bolts slide in a captive track with spaced large notches for installing and removing. The fun part is lining them all up at the same time, lowering frame with a wiggle as the threads hang up on stuff on their way down. At least that’s what some did on my last boat as they slide through a couple glass layers into hidden compartments so seeing from top or bottom was impossible. Fun times…

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 16th, '23, 09:09

Yannis wrote: ↑Dec 15th, '23, 23:06 Carl,

Hit this on you tube:

“Process of making unusual form for aquarium like a beautiful woman body”

I wasn’t sure where that was going to go…but very cool. Interesting idea to make a mold. Not sure how much heat it can take, but easy to find out.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Dec 16th, '23, 16:33

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Dec 15th, '23, 21:09 Doug

I believe they call them T bolts.

Like These but only in stainless.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/ha ... -slot-nuts

I recognize those! The same things bolt the toilet to the floor in my house. Bertram used a wonderful mix of off the rack items and super custom fabrication.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 17th, '23, 00:52

Carl,

After the plaster mold is dry, you can then reinforce it with plastered-on wood strips to prevent lateral twisting.

Then, if you're not sure or just cannot do the heating of the plexi job by yourself, you can take the reinforced mold to the plexi technician and he'll do what's necessary.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 17th, '23, 11:08

Has anyone seen the Cabrera unit installed?
Who ended up with the mold?

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 17th, '23, 21:27

I don't know who has the mold, but I believe there are some past members who it.

I believe a lot of modifications were needed to it to make it fit. I know that Jimmy G had to do modifications to make the deck system fit.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 18th, '23, 06:47

Nothing made for these boats jumps right in, I believe their deck system is meant to be used in it’s entirety with the rest of the pieces and for a specific sized tank.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 18th, '23, 12:03

I don't want to argue with you Rob, but you're wrong on this one.

Money, I make money for the 31 and it jumps right in. It does not make a difference what denomination, check, credit card, or Venmo, the 31 fits it all in with room for more.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 18th, '23, 22:04

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 18th, '23, 12:03 I don't want to argue with you Rob, but you're wrong on this one.

Money, I make money for the 31 and it jumps right in. It does not make a difference what denomination, check, credit card, or Venmo, the 31 fits it all in with room for more.

Thats what happens when you get old.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 19th, '23, 09:46

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 15th, '23, 09:16 John-
Where did you find Captain Pats build on Santiagos boat? I had looked in building tips a couple times for ideas n info. One thing for sure, I'm not glassing the frames...well I say that now. Once things get going directions change. Captain Pat excelled in glasswork, it is not my strong point. I am better at the Sandblast, Grind, Weld n Grind n Weld n Grind and Machine and I deal with a Powder Coat shop...so I see that as my direction.
That said I really wanted to see what the actual stock frames look like free of the glass and trim...those pictures help tremendously, thank you for linking to them

I just searched something like window frames and found it. Capt Patrick did some really nice, innovative f'glass work. He was an artist

Yannis, Thank you! That was my original direction of molding the plastic windows. My first step after removing the frame n glass would have been to build a mold /cradle to form the bend. I may still have to do that and having a product like you mention would save lots of time. On Facebook a person cold fit the Lexan panel into the curved frame, secured with rivets, put trim back on calling it a day. I plan to try that option first. Only issue I saw was he went 3/16 on the panels, I believe they are 1/4". That said...this is my helm side windows, not the front cabin windows where they can see green water. If I see green water at my helm windows, I have much bigger problems than the curved windows giving out.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 19th, '23, 14:02

John F. wrote: ↑Dec 19th, '23, 09:46
...Capt Patrick did some really nice, innovative f'glass work. He was an artist

That is a fact...for years I was amazed at Captain Patrick's in-depth knowledge and skills of fiberglass, and boats. His ability to see a design and follow it through to completion as a true craftsman. Later I found out this was not the first career he excelled in, he was once a Master Goldsmith to high-end clientele. So while the medium he worked in changed, he was always an artist. I think he either linked to a couple of pieces he crafted or maybe it was a picture...whatever, an artist he was.