1986 28 Flybridge

[fender33458]

Hey all,

Last year my wife and I bought an '86 28 Flybridge from a gentleman who had owned the boat since 1987, upgrading from a 23' cuddy cabin. When I first saw the ad, I hadn't really heard of Bertrams before, but a mechanic friend pressured me into looking at it, telling me I'd be hard pressed to get more boat for the money. The previous owner very obviously cared about the boat, but she'd been out of the water for about 8 years. From the way the previous owner told the story, he pulled her out to re-power and put in a new fuel tank, but free time was short and the list of things to do got longer, until he finally decided to get the boat across the finish line and sell her.

Long story short, after a clean survey and two sea trials, my wife and I bought her last fall - a month before we got married. We've had plenty of teething issues, as a lot of the mechanicals are new and effectively untested, but we've had a (mostly) great time getting to know the boat and updating what we want to update. Highlights include:

- An overheating issue on the starboard engine that I confidently identified as a leak in the heat exchanger (I was wrong), , and air bubbles in the system (I was wrong), and a bad thermostat (I was shooting from the hip at this point, and was still wrong). The water pump had loosened against the belt and was slipping, reducing the raw water flow in the boat. I had heard the belt squeal and put it on the mental to-do list, but never put two and two together.

- Engine "knocking" that had me questioning if it was possible to falsify re-power paperwork.. turns out it was just a bad spark plug

- Finding a used radar arch on facebook, and going to mount it.. only to find out it was about a foot too short. Fortunately I was able to fabricate some extensions - we'll see how they hold up.

This all brings me to the questions I came here to ask originally:

From my research, the drain in the head should have a hose leading to the plastic drain pan located in the bilge, by the water tanks. Ours just seems to drain straight down into the bilge, with a stringer running between the drain and the drain pan. I'm assuming that there's some way for water to cross through that stringer to get to the lowest part of the bilge, right? Getting at the underside of the drain looks like it would require removing the bathroom floor and the toilet.

Additionally, the boat only came with 2 bilge pumps - one in the engine compartment, and one in the shower drain pan. There are 3 float switches as well - one at the stern, and two in the bilge in the cockpit - I'm guessing that originally the boat had to come with more bilge pumps, at least another one at the bottom of the bilge in the cockpit?

I'll upload some pictures of the boat once I'm back home from work, but appreciate the insight in advance, and I'm sure I'll have more questions as we put more hours on her.

[JeremyD]

I had four bilge pumps in my 28 (which was also a 1986) two in the cabin - two in the engine compartment - Each one designed to come on at different water levels -

You are right about the shower drain. I had mine go into a pan which had a bilge pump then out the side

Mine was like this
https://www.zoro.com/rule-shower-drain- ... BQQAvD_BwE

[Yannis]

First of all welcome to the board and congratulations for your new life plan!

The stringers, all of them, have drain holes every so often so that water can flow from top to bottom. No matter where the water comes from, it always ends up at the lowest point which is under the sole by the galley. It requires planning to at least block water coming from the deck into the cabin bilge, namely, block the water coming from the drain that sits right under the main bulkhead without blocking the same water from running freely to the engine bilge, otherwise you'll have water stagnate over the outboard stringers. The shower water is easy, provided you can reach to the area under the sole...that easy I mean...
Refer to my thread B28 shower creation of march '14 to get some ideas.

Mine is a '72 so it had no shower. I made a shower by removing part of the bathroom sole. I assume that in order to reach under the drain, there has to be some sort of destruction in the sole because the access from the cabin bilge is blocked by a stringer that you shouldn't cut or remove. Access from the two hatches, one in the head and the other under the galley cabinet are no help either because there is another stringer blocking the way too.

Good luck!

[Carl]

Hey Welcome Mr Fender!

A Bertram is a great boat to dump money into, even if it’s a 28…. That dig was for Yannis. Don’t tell him, but the 28 ain’t so bad…lol


Seriously, you have a great boat, so enjoy.and lots of great info here, so ask away.


Now the forgetting to realize the obvious with motor hiccups, sit back and relax a bit. Let the brain catch up to the impulses.


Shower discharges into…

Unless you’re living aboard, is it really an issue. No shower in my 31 that I’ve had for…well 30 years. For beach we will carry a solar shower bag. Weekend and trips we go to places with showers and all else…deodorant. If I have a point, it’s fix what you need to be right and the other stuff you’ll figure out as needed.


My 02



….again, enjoy.


Carl

[Tony Meola]

Fender

Welcome.

The boats usually came from the factory with two bilge pumps, one in the stern and one up front in the cabin.

Sorry I can't offer any advice on how the hose for the shower sump should run.

[fender33458]

Appreciate the insight from you guys! It really is incredible how much knowledge is lurking around on these boats.

I'll definitely check out your shower thread, Yannis - I think I should be able to get under the floor by removing the toilet and then the floor itself, but that'll be lower on the list of things to do.

Carl, I generally agree that this is low priority - I figured that the water had to have had some path to make its way to the bottom of the bilge, but wanted confirmation so if we did use the shower i wouldn't have standing water just sitting around. I'm not totally sure how much we're going to be using the shower. We like going on weekend trips, and utilized our old boat's transom shower fairly often, so I like to think we'll get some use out of the shower, but who knows at this point - I still have to get the fresh water system cleaned properly, last year the water had a distinct odor to it. But either way, half the fun is just getting to know how the boats were built and go together.

[Carl]

Fender-

What is my low priority may not be yours and I respect that.

My point, which I think you understood is to sort out the must-do's from the kinda-wanna's. I also understand trying to get in and learn the boat...it takes time for sure. I have to say I've been in just about every nook and cranny of mine over the years for one reason or another.

Foul smell in the water tank is an issue when not used for long periods, especially during the summer. We never drink it so an oz or two of bleach goes in on occasion with a good rinse after.

[Amberjack]

Welcome to the forum Fender. As this conversation has veered into showers as opposed to say, 'catching fish' I feel qualified to comment. We use our Bertram 31 Flybridge Cruiser for cruising during the summer and we anchor out a lot so a shower comes in handy. Amberjack has probably the same molded shower pan that drains to the bilge and when we bought it was rigged with a shower. The problem was that everything in the head--towels, toothpaste holder, toilet paper, etc, would get wet so we never used it.

I rigged a shower curtain which encloses the area between the engine boxes under the flybridge overhang and provides complete privacy. We put the solar shower up on the flybridge and lead the shower head under the shower curtain into the enclosure and it works like a charm. We usually get 4 showers from one solar shower.

Domestic water tanks. If you have ever looked in one you'll never drink from it again. Every spring I use a 110v transfer pump to empty and flush the tank with fresh water so its fine for washing dishes, face washing, etc but we always carry bottled water for drinking.

[Yannis]

These are my two external bladders. I have one more under the cabin sole. I can use them independently, either the outside or the inside one, or all together in line.
I can fill them together, if I open the connecting ball valves.

They are always clean and never smell because as the water is consumed they do not let air come in, they just deflate.
They DO NOT require a bleeding valve as there is no vacuum created inside.
This will be their 10th summer, no problem so far.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191620136 ... ed-public/

[fender33458]

Behind the ball a little bit, but here are a few pictures when we got her, the first picture showing her next to our old boat:

[fender33458]

Doug -

Interesting thought with the solar showers under the flybridge overhang. We have some sort of shower curtain rigged up from the previous owner, but I've got a feeling we're going to have a similar experience with water going everywhere. It also looks like that for the water to get the the rear drain, I'd need a full fuel tank, otherwise it pools at the opposite side of the bathroom. I might put in another drain, if we end up using the shower.

Absolutely agree on the drinking water part. Carrying spare water bottles in the cooler is well worth not drinking out of the fresh water syste.

Ultimately, I have all these romantic ideas of the fishing I'm going to do with the boat, but our end use will be similar to yours, cruising around long island sound spending the weekends in different areas.

Yannis, can't say I would have thought of something like that. You could still have some kind of bacteria buildup in them still though right? What capacity do you have/what are the bladders made of?

[Carl]

Thinking about it, my boat did have a shower before I got it...like just about everything else on the boat the prior steward pulled it out. Not what I was getting into but he did mention what he pulled out...

The floor drain was piped into what was basically a big tray with an automatic bilge pump. Water drained in tray, filling to a point the pump when on, discharging overboard. Today gray water may not be allowed to go out...but same as going into the bilge and out but no soap residue and hair going into the bilge. Oh...if wanting to be within regulations the pan could be pumped into a grey water tank...unless low and gravity fed.

[Yannis]

The water we have at the docks at the islands is mostly from desalination.
Therefore, we all drink bottled water. The water in the tanks is for the shower and the washing up.

The bladders shouldn't have bacteria because they never smell. Bacteria are multiplied when there is air in the tank, like is the case in rigid tanks. Here the tank deflates as the water is consumed so there is neither air nor vacuum.

One issue may be the water remnants, by that I mean all kinds of impurities like sand, dirt etc.
So, if you see the pump filter getting a bit brownish, you know that at the end of the season you’ll have to empty the bladder and take it home. Fill it with 5-10 liters of water on your patio and walk on it so as to agitate what’s inside. Then empty it. Do this 2-3 times and you're done for another few years.
Simple, no?

These bladders of mine are Italian, 100liters each, plus 150 liters under the cabin sole.
They're made out of exactly what inflatable dinghies are made of. If I remember well they each cost less than 100€?

Before you place them in the bilge, pass your bilge with a sandpaper so as to guarantee a clean surface free of fiberglass imperfections. No eccentricities, just a smooth surface that’s all.
Like I said, mine are 10yo with no signs of any kind of deterioration or material fatigue.

To further intrigue you, I also have a gas water heater! The best invention since sliced bread. No tank to rust and plenty of hot water on demand. Its hanging on the bathroom bulkhead. When I shower the windows get all misty from the vapor...I wonder what all those outside people in the mega yachts think when they see that... LOL

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

I would suggest running some bleach or a strong vinegar solution through them when they are dirty or at the end of each year. If they do not dry completely, and trust me they don't you still stand of chance of getting some type of bacteria growth.

So you are running an on demand hot water tank/boiler. How much propane do you use during the summer to run it?

[Tony Meola]

Fender

The boat actually looks like it is in pretty good shape. She looks real clean from the pictures.

[Yannis]

Tony,

You're right. I put some vinegar in the rinsing process. I avoid bleach, as it deteriorates the quality of the poly/whatever material the bladders are made out of.

I carry a 5 liter propane tank. This is a new (relatively new) type of tank, made out of fiberglass. It incorporates the (also new) version of pressure regulator on top, that requires no tools to attach in place, just press a button to click on and then off. As the tank is plastic it leaves no rust ring on the floor, and is also lightweight! This 5 liter tank, which through a "T" also feeds the two burner cook-top in the galley, lasts for a whole season. With multiple showers and boy do I cook... In the galley I do not have hot water though, as this would require a change in the faucet, from single knob to double knob, as well as a complication in the water tubing run.

If you remember to shower the salt off during the day when the sun is up, it would perhaps be tolerable without a heater, but in the dusk and especially during those September frisky evenings the water heater is a king.

[fender33458]

Yannis,

I'll have to look into something like that at some point - I like the idea of having hot showers and being able to cook at anchor, but wasn't sure if I wanted to utilize the alcohol stove/run the engines to warm the water/bring a generator. Having a propane heater seems like a elegant solution, if it won't get me into trouble with my insurance policy!

Tony,

You're right - she is clean. The previous owner really took care of her, and it shows.

When we were making the 'list' of what we wanted our next boat to have, we generally focused on weekend trips and cruising. Radar was a must, after we got caught in the middle of a fog bank in the Connecticut river with our old 23' cuddy cabin - not a terribly pleasant experience, watching boats materialize out of the fog 10 feet away.

Being too cheap to pay for a new custom arch, I drew up plans to make a radar post, but then found a used arch that was the right width, and about 5 feet tall, on Facebook for $400. I figured height wasn't as important as I could just mount it higher on the flybridge, and shim any extra width with teak. I got the radar and spreader lights wired up in my basement, and grabbed some friends to help mount the arch on the boat.



Turns out, the bimini was too wide, the arch too short, and I'd need 4" or so of shims to make the arch mount at the top of the flybridge - and that didn't seem like an intelligent idea structurally.

Since I can't weld, I figured I could probably make extensions utilizing bolted connections, similar to how the feet of the arch were attached. I bought four 13" lengths of AL tubing with the same ID/OD as the arch, and bought some 1.5 inch solid aluminum rod. I drilled out the bottom of the tubing to attach to the feet, and turned down the rod to have about a 0.010" clearance when inserted into the tubing - my idea being it would be good to have some clearance, and then when bolted all together, the tubing would deform slightly to make a solid connection. In hindsight, I probably would have brought that down to 0.005, I had too much slop for my own liking. I drilled holes through the width of the bar to bolt to, and holes down the length of the rod to run wires through. Finally, I made a template using some left over AL to make sure I would drill new holes in the proper location on the radar arch, and put it all together.







It's bolted on with aluminum backing plates, partially running through the wood structural members on the flybridge. It seems solid, and at least doesn't (immediately) look like some cheap engineer's hack job. Time will tell how it holds up - I'll have to keep an eye on those locknuts to make sure they don't loosen up.

[fender33458]

The bimini ended up being easier than I thought it would be. I figured I'd start by getting the frame to sit under the arch properly, and then deal with the canvas after. I cut 12" out of the middle of the bimini frame, and connected the the sides back together with stiff tubing, and secured with hose clamps - solid connections weren't easily possible since both sides had a slight angle to them. I put the canvas back on, and besides the bimini sitting a little lower on either side, it didn't look too bad, so I put it back on the boat.





The boat came with a full enclosure, which now I'm sure won't fit properly, but the zippers were in bad shape on them already and they needed to be replaced, so not like I'd be using them anyways. I'd like to get the enclosure working properly at some point, whether that's modifying them or buying new pieces, but that's a project for another day.

[Yannis]

Hey, that radar arch doesn't look all that bad after all!

At some point (soon) you may have to go buy two new bimini arches (or have them made) as those clamps will certainly tear apart your canvas.

[fender33458]

Yannis -

Probably a pretty fair point there. Wonder if I could make do with some heavy duty zip ties? The “joint” shouldn’t see much lateral force.

[Yannis]

Anything that protrudes, with the flapping from the wind, it is a matter of time to see the first hole...

It is not all that difficult to order a length of aluminum and have it bent by a competent blacksmith. I’ve done a new rail with stainless, where you are only given one chance to do the angle right, and it was neither too costly nor all that difficult. You have to find the right technician though. Aluminum is much more forgiving that stainless in bending.

[Tony Meola]

Take my advice Stainless is nice but too heavy for a bimini top. Ask me how I know.

It is really a great product for a bimini. The issue is, I take mine off for the winter. Off is easy. Getting it on is a fight. It does not flex as much as aluminum so lining it up and setting it in the hole in the rail is a pain. Through trial and error and dropping a fitting in the lagoon, ugh, I figured out put the bottom piece on the railing then slide the tubes into those. It is better than trying to line up the bold.

[Yannis]

Tony,

Me, who preaches about the least possible weight up on top, have never thought about the stainless vs. aluminum debate for the bimini skeleton!

It may be because, for some unknown reason, we almost always make SS arches and SS tanks, whereas you almost always make aluminum tanks and possibly arches....go figure!

And stop taking those arches away for the winter...we'll all go meet our ancestors much sooner than these arches will show any sign of resignation...

[Tony Meola]

Hyannis

Taking them off does two things, makes it easier to cover the boat and the sunbrella lasts longer.

[Yannis]

Tony,

If you put zips on where the sunbrella folds around every arch and secondary arch, you can remove the canvas without pulling the arches.
Now, I don't know your configuration, but if you could fold the arches forward or backward, then you could cover the boat too, without all the hassle of removing the arches.

On another note I finally replaced my deck sunbrella with a new one, color of sand. When I bought the boat in '13, the previous owner told me that changing the two canvasses should be a priority (fb bimini and deck). I'll do it next year and next year and finally last summer I started seeing through the material...so there you have it. Up above, the bimini was completely ripped with a gust of wind so I removed it completely as I already have some shade provided by the two solar panels. I made a clip-on canvas that masks the underside of the panels and I'm done with canvasses !

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

that works also. Just that folded back, it is in the way of the frame for the canvas. Of course, I could change the frame for the canvas. But that is too easy. Lol

[fender33458]

Radar arch got a trial by fire this weekend!

We had probably 3-4' waves in Long Island Sound yesterday, with 20-30 knot winds, and I had to make a 12 mile run back home.

Compared to the old boat, it's incredible how well these hulls handle the waves. We were able to chug along at 14ish mph the entire way - we got a bit wet, but otherwise made it back just fine.

The radar arch held up well, but my bimini design was allowing too much flex in the middle - where the rubber is - in the headwind. All in all, I think i've come to the conclusion I probably want to just get a new bimini/frame, as this one is on its last legs anyways, and the frame is a bit short for my liking. It'd be nice to get a new eisenglass enclosure as well, but from what I've heard they're not especially cheap..

[Tony Meola]

Sounds like you are giving everything a good shake down.

These older Berts are really tough boats. I know I will never live this down, but I think the 28 is a bit better in a head sea then the 31. These boats really shine in a following sea.

Keep on enjoying her.

[fender33458]

Over the last few weeks I've been installing speakers into the old girl, with mostly good results. When I was working on the stbd rear speaker though, I put a hole in the wrong place, and that now needs to be patched. I figure I can make a replacement piece the right size using the scraps from where the speakers went in, but I'd need a way to attach it and blend it in.

Anyone have any suggestions? Does this call for full-on glassing it in? Or is there some other way I could get the "patch" to fill the hole? And any ideas on blending and color matching the seam?

For now white tape will need to do the job

[Carl]

You could hang a picture over it...
Or add more speakers???

Seriously- to make like it wasn't there patch n paint. If not structural it is as good a place as any to learn how to glass a patch, smooth n fair. Paint or gel coat. Down side is if it comes out perfect, how does one perfect spot look compared to the rest of the boat. If not perfect, can you live with it?

I joked about a picture, but is there anything you could see being of use there? How about storage or an access hole using a hatch, maybe something like below?


https://www.amazon.com/Seaflo-Marine-Ac ... 1748&psc=1

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/seaflo- ... &gclsrc=ds

[Amberjack]

You could hang a picture over it...
Or add more speakers???

Engine ventilator? Stock Bertrams are deficient in air flow for modern engines.

[Tony Meola]

Maybe I missed it, but just where did you make the hole?

[fender33458]

I think learning to glass is going to be the right call here - right now my super duper marine military grade white duct tape covers it well enough you don't immediately notice it, so that'll give me time to do some research and figure out how to fix it correctly.

The speakers are all the way aft, on the port and stbd wall sections right in front of the transom, below where the exhaust feeds through. I worried about heat, but I've seen a few others with similar setups so I'm optimistic.. I also have two up in the flybridge.

[Amberjack]

Doug -

Interesting thought with the solar showers under the flybridge overhang.

Image of the shower curtain deployed. It is purely for privacy when at an anchorage and does the job. Everything drains into the bilge and it attaches to the same snaps I use for the cockpit cover. This is I think only going to work on a 31 FBC or SF.



You can see the solar shower on the FB. The electric outboard got a bath also.

[fender33458]

Image of the shower curtain deployed. It is purely for privacy when at an anchorage and does the job. Everything drains into the bilge and it attaches to the same snaps I use for the cockpit cover. This is I think only going to work on a 31 FBC or SF.



You can see the solar shower on the FB. The electric outboard got a bath also.

We've gone on a few multi-day trips so far, and I have to say, I've been pretty impressed with the shower in the bathroom. We've run the engines in the late afternoon, and I'll still have warm water the next morning. The bathroom isn't exactly spacious, but there's enough room to make it work. Apart from maybe putting in another drain, since the water wants to pool up on the opposite side of the floor as the drain itself, I'm going to keep it as-is for now - until something inevitably breaks!

[Yannis]

Same happens to me with the water.
Push it with your foot to the opposite side after you're done showering!

[fender33458]

Well, what would a boat be without issues.

On our run out last week, one of my tachs was bouncing around giving bad readings. Figure that's probably a bad ground, and should be easy enough to fix.

More concerning, once we got out of the harbor, my high stbd transmission light came on. I limped back in on the port engine, keeping the stbd engine idling in neutral to keep water running through the system in an effort to cool it down. The light turned off ~30 mins later. I'm planning on going in this weekend and checking the obvious stuff - oil level, hoses, etc. I've read that the velvet drives can have issues with strainers getting clogged? Any other ideas?