6BTA starting issue

[jeffery pagano]

I have 2 1989 300 hp Cummins 6btas on a 31 FBC, which recently seem to be hard starting after thay are warmed up. As to the initial cold start up (having been on block heaters), I hit the starter and within 5 seconds, both engines fire. To start the engines after being warmed up ( even after having run for 5 minutes) I need to engage the starter for a longer period of time, almost running the engines with the starter motor. I' say the time with the starter engaged is about 15 or more seconds. If I do not engage the starter for this length of time it fires, but then immediately shuts down. I have changed all fuel filters and airfilters with no change in results.

Performance underway is great-32 kts at 2850.

Any ideas, as I am concerned if I continue as I am operating during start up, it will be soon that I will need replacement starter motors. On the other hand, perhaps I am expecting too much. the engines have 1700 hours on them.

Thanks for your advice.

[Bruce]

What kind of service work has been done to the engines other than your standard oil/filter changes?

[In Memory Walter K]

Jeff-Same condition on BOTH engines? Walter

[jeffery pagano]

I replaced the heads, injectors, water pumps, fuel primer valves, fuel lines, air and oil filters in both engines. The power is there, the tubos start to spool up at about 1550 rpm..... Beyond these "fixes" I checked the turbos and whatever in the fuel sytem I could to determine if that was the problem.

The problem is with both engines, primarily with the port engine, although oddly from time to time, the port engine will not shut down after the ignition is cut.

Keep in mind if I stay into the starter the extra time, the engines will remain running. If I do not stay into the starter, the engines will fire and run for a moment and then shut down. Each time I stay into the starters a bit longer until it remains running. then there are no problems to keep it running, until I need to drift. It is as if I am assisting the engines with the starters past a point to allow them to keep running.

[Bruce]

Jeffrey,
Diesel needs 3 things to start and keep running, air, fuel and compression.
Sounds like you have the last two.

One thing that stuck out in your second post is the engine sometimes not shutting down which points to the fuel valve. Start with that for both problems.

Next would be to make sure that the fuel prime back thru the filters is not lost. If you have Racors, the check valve inside could be dirty if those are the filters you have.

BTW, are you any relation to a Joe Pagano out of Phila/NJ who worked for Ford/Philco?

[jeffery pagano]

The Phidelphia Paganos, probably will not admit the NY relation, particularly that they transversed Bronx NY, where my first generation parents hailed from, who ultimitely moved to Asbury Park NJ. I do believe the Pagano's are all related, as we all come from a small town outside Naples, transversing through the Bronx. The name Pagano means "hillbilly" in Italian, which is due to the original location of the clan. The Philidelphia Paganos do make good pizza and other food, but beyond that I have had no real contact.

I will check the Racors this evening. Thanks for the imput and advice.

[In Memory Walter K]

Jeff-I had a similar problem last year that drove me crazy until I tried starting with my son looking at the engine and he spotted bubbles in the glass of my racor while I was cranking. I had a minute crack in the bowl that was invisible from the front. This little leak caused me to lose my prime. The engine would start and die in less than a minute, then it would take mucho cranking to start again. I, like Bruce, suspect air getting into your fuel lines somehow. The checkvalve in the racors is a good place to start. Tighten all fuel lines and filters next. Given Andy Ceslow having done all that work on your engines, I'm surprised this is happening. Perhaps vibration has loosened a connection somewhere.
Went to PS 47 in the Bronx with a Patty Pagano. Walter

[jeffery pagano]

Walter,

Thanks for your insights and will follow up, even asking my son to assist me in examining the Racors on warm start up. I agree, Andy is a hard act to follow, although time and vibration will take its toll regardless of his excellent work initially.
As to Patty Pagano, I believe he is directly related, named after my favorite funny uncle, who I last saw at age 9. Once you leave the Bronx for the Jersey Shore, you have effectively abandoned the family. Actually, the "hillbillys" hate the salt water, as my Bronx sidearm toting Harlem doctor grandfather used to tell me. They would rather play cards in the shade.

Regards,

[RussP]

My Mom used Dr. Pagano out of Bay Ridge, Brooklyn to deliver the 3 kids.

I don't remember those days but I guess he did a good job.
RussP

[jeffery pagano]

I tried everything, from checking the fuel tank, Racors, fuel lines, hoses for leaks and bled both the low speed and high speed fuel lines, as well as the injectors in accordance with the Cummins shop manual. One engine remains hard to start, it fires at 900 rpm, then a galloping idle until it shuts down within seconds. If I rev the engine above 1000, no problem until I pass below 1000 rpm, then the galoping and a shut down. If I stay into the starter, on occasion it will remain idling once I get off the ignition, as if there is no problem--no galoping. No one seems to have a solution or an answer at my dock. As Walter indicated Andy C did much of the work on the engines historically-- and as in Star Wars, "is my only hope" on Monday (without fishing), unless someone here can figure it out.

Thanks for any help....

[goldfish74]

The superintendent at my kids school is Tom Pagano, a really nice guy. Since we live next to Asbury Park I thought he may be related.
Sorry I can't help with your problem, but good luck getting it straightened out.
Jeff Gold

[Marshall Mahoney]

I think I've got it. I had the same symptoms with both engines -- about a year apart. There is an inconspicuous ball check on the fuel pump outlet -- where the fuel return line ties in. It looks like a 1" long hex fitting. The valve holds slight back pressure on the pump and keeps fuel from draining out of the pump and losing prime. The spring gets weak or fails over time. OR there is a slight chance of some trash the valve -- alowing fuel to leak by. Before purchasing a new one, check to see if the fuel pump lost prime by cracking open the bleed screw on the front of the pump. OR if you solved the problem on one engine, switch the valves and see if the problem moves to the other engine. Remember to bleed the air out of the pump afterwords and before cranking. Easy to change.

[jeffery pagano]

The starting issue was solved. After repeatedly bleeding the fuel system and changing every filter I could find, I gave up and called our local diesel guru Andy C ( Walter and Randall know him) on his cell. He immediately identified the problem as being the shutdown solenoid. Andy suggested that if I removed the solenoid it would end the problem. I did so, and the problem was immediately eliminated, although the engine had to be shut down manually without the shutown solenoid in place.
Ready to pay the price to replace both solenoids, further testing of the old solenoids disclosed that the real problem was with the wiring from the starter switch which could not hold the load necessary to properly activate the solenoid on start-up. In the end, the wiring harness was the problem, working at half the voltage necessary.

Thanks to all of you for your insight and help in attempting to figure out the answer to the problem.

[In Memory Walter K]

Jeff- Thank you for letting us know and furthering our educations. The wiring from the switch to the solenoid I can understand being of a lower gauge than necessary. What I don't understand is why the engine supplied harnesses were bad...or was it that the lesser wiring to the solenoid caused them to be running at lower voltage. Walter

[jeffery pagano]

Walter,
The lesser wire to the solenoid harness from the ignition failed coupled with ongoing harness connection deterioration. I suspect it took both occurances acting simultainously for the solenoid to fail.
Regards,

[ScottD]

Didn't Bruce say to check them a few weeks ago? I assume fuel valve and solenoid shut-off valve are one and the same, either way, glad it was something simple.

ScottD

[jeffery pagano]

I did not thing the fuel valve Bruce was referring to was connected to the fuel linkage. It was the wiring to the solenoid, controlling the linkage that was faulty.
I always take Bruce's posts seriously, if only I could fully appreciate/understand them. Bruce is a great teacher.

[In Memory of Vicroy]

The wiring harnesses are neglected as "sealed" and zero maintaince, but they are not. Once salt water gets inside the plugs, it eats up the copper -both the pins in the plugs and the wire itself - in short order. I've had many problems with my Cummins harnesses, just simple stuff like the plugs getting green corrosion on the pins to more serious stuff like a wire in the harness getting the insulation nicked and salt water getting in the wire and just turning it to mush.

My tips: first, inspect the harness wires one at a time, make sure they are out of the bilge water....second, take all the plugs apart, both at the engine and at the panel, and shoot them with CX. Next, any independent wires, say for tachs or boost gagues, trace them, wire tie them up so they don't rub on anything, and CX the ends. Then track down all your battery cable ends, take them loose, wire brush them where they connect (pos. and ground) then CX them and torque them down.

Salt water getting in non-marine wire will turn the copper to mush in a matter or weeks.....maybe a few years with tinned marine wire. The blood vessels of your boat, the electrical system, pay a little attention to it, shoot CX, and it will outlast you, otherwise it will leave you in the lurch.

UV
Proud member of the Mean Team &
founder of the kind, gentle, & skip thru the flowers team

[capy]

The wiring harnesses are neglected as "sealed" and zero maintaince, but they are not. Once salt water gets inside the plugs, it eats up the copper -both the pins in the plugs and the wire itself - in short order. I've had many problems with my Cummins harnesses, just simple stuff like the plugs getting green corrosion on the pins to more serious stuff like a wire in the harness getting the insulation nicked and salt water getting in the wire and just turning it to mush.

My tips: first, inspect the harness wires one at a time, make sure they are out of the bilge water....second, take all the plugs apart, both at the engine and at the panel, and shoot them with CX. Next, any independent wires, say for tachs or boost gagues, trace them, wire tie them up so they don't rub on anything, and CX the ends. Then track down all your battery cable ends, take them loose, wire brush them where they connect (pos. and ground) then CX them and torque them down.

Salt water getting in non-marine wire will turn the copper to mush in a matter or weeks.....maybe a few years with tinned marine wire. The blood vessels of your boat, the electrical system, pay a little attention to it, shoot CX, and it will outlast you, otherwise it will leave you in the lurch.

UV
Proud member of the Mean Team &
founder of the kind, gentle, & skip thru the flowers team

UV,

Solid advice. Or he could repower with oil slingin' dump truck motors and never worry about corrosion again. Too much oil in the bilge to let anything ever rot.

Your long lost pal

Paul