2021 Cummins options

[Ironworker]

Well after visiting Bertram Heaven, I've made to decision to repower my boat!

Now what engine to buy? I'm planning on Cummins primarily do to parts availability and service life. I've read this thread 4 times and still don't have a clue as to what engine, I'm going to buy.

Question for the group. Are there any Bertram 31 knowledgeable engine installers in the Palm Beach area that have good references? My first choice would be to find a good shop on the Charleston SC or Palm Beach areas. I'm not above heading north for exceptional service but I'm guessing most of those boatyards are covered up with work getting boats back in the water for fishing season.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

I think Bruce would be the best one to answer that question. If he doesn't see this in a few days send him a PM.

[Craig Mac]

You could try L & H in Stuart----generally they do total rebuilds---maybe they do repowers.

They have done many 31 Bertrams and their own boats are usually powered with Cummins.

[Carl]

If I recall this has been a multi-year project with tentative splash in a few weeks...you must have the patients of a saint to send boat in for a repowering now possibly loosing another season.

220 Volvos you have, right? Heavy motors, but not high hp so the motor beds may or may not be setup for much more power. Then comes what shafts are you running? Assuming 1-3/8... so that's ok for 270 Cummins...beyond that upgrade would be advisable.
Just looking at from a time standpoint, changing motors is easy if just paying for them and boats mostly setup. Stepping into new bed upgrades and running gear adds time and that green stuff.

I'm only looking from eyes that would be so impatient to use the boat after all the time and effort put in. Maybe run boat with the 220's. For a while. Then you get to decide what might work better for you. Your 220's should top out about where the 270's cruise. If that doesn't put a smile on your face you rule out the 270's and now your into the 330's or going electronic with QSB's. Depending on your preference or adverstion that may be an easy decision.

[Ironworker]

Carl,

You are right about ready to get this old girl moving. My problem is after vising Bertram Heaven, I've discovered these Volvo TAMD 60Bs in the boat likely have between 20,000 and 30,000 hours on them! However, they run pretty good. I was under the impression they had around 4,000 hours. I've kind of stitched them together as I had to rip out all the old harnesses (corroded). so basically, I've just got an energized circuit to the starter and fuel shut off soleniod. Otherwise they are absent of of instrumentation. Currently I'm monitoring engine temp with an infrared Thermometer.

I've already bought aftermarket FSO solenoids, and alternators now one of the starters is TU. I hope to be able to get it fixed enough that I can get the boat to the boatyard. I've bought some cheap temp and tach (alternator) gauges just to get me to S. Florida. I'm not in the right tax bracket to buy parts from Volvo! I called Volvo about a FSO solenoid and it was $1,000 or a cheap knockoff on fleabay for $70.

I hate to kill good engines but at 20,000 hours those engines have lived a good life. Since the accessories are failing, I could tie up 3 or 4K easily in fixing stuff, another 3K in instrumentation and still have a couple of worn out old engines. Or I could invest that same money in new/recon engines and enjoy the boat for the next 10 years.

Using a iphone GPS (fairly accurate) at WOT I hit 30kts with the current engines, so I figured that I could get a 22 - 23 kt cruise out of them. Bottom line was its makes no sense to me to put more money into engines that are likely to be replaced shortly anyway.

[Ironworker]

The boat with the previous owner has been in two different boatyards. The first one installed a 6" new exhaust system and 220 gallon Fuel tank. The boat already had 1 1/2" shafts and I've had the props OH'd by Bobby Soles in WPB. I've installed a new rudder board, tie rods and larger rudders as well. I've replace the Hynautic steering system. The second boatyard did a fair amount of fiberglass work, new tower and exterior paint. However the interior of the boat was pretty much as it was when the boat was owned by Mr. Matthews.

The engine beds have been built up and most like could accommodate the new engines if they aren't two high.

My latest project is replacing some of the bulkheads which were rotted but I'm reluctant to glass them in as they may have to be removed to replace the engines which is why I might as well bite that bullet now rather than later.

These photos were taken this weekend.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3d2rjcuojkmo ... Wy4aa?dl=0

[Carl]

Rick - your boat looks gourgous, truly love the look.

Motors...I have little clue if failing assesories is indicative of motors on their way out or just outer parts needing replacing. Volvo has always been know to be tough on getting parts and when you can get' em, they show no mercy.

So does it pay to keep them or not...not even close to being my call. But if mine I "think" I'd try to get a true condition of motors condition. The stuff that really counts, the inner iron end. At the very least oil survey. Does motor crank and crank when cold or kick off immediatly? I was told by a few people a cranking diesel is a sign of low compression (in moderate weather), if all is good they should light right off. And I've heard Blowby can be a big clue...I don't know if either is true, false, or a wives tail, but mine was "good" on both so "I" like the idea, deciding to give both some merit. If motors are decent I have no problem with aftermarket gauges and items, especially over not having anything.

Crazy high hours is scary, it's why I gave up running my old 440 gas motors...30 years since rebuilt, I bought with 1200+ hours on them and over my 24 years I racked up lots of hours. But I knew the person I bought boat from...he trolled most of the hours and a good % of mine are from trolling and we both did our regular maintenance and oil changes running boat moderately most of the time.

Just saying high hours from good Stewart's "may" allow motors to achieve higher hours.


A good hull needs good motors...



Rereading your post, you seem to be eluding to RTO's as its not much more then fixing the guages, starters and outer electrical items. I had in my head new or "Cummins Rebuilt" NEW which to me is a deep deep pocket item. RTO's come with their own problems which can be just a way of swapping the issue you have now with somebody else's problem.

If your hitting 30knts with 220's...it kinda sounds like they have some life left. But I am new to diesel and just thinking what I'd need to step back and rethink after being at Bertram heaven. I came back from a Bertram rendevous with ideas of what I wanted to do to mine when I got back. Luckily it was a long drive back followed by a vacation as I realized ripping the boat apart was a project I did not have the time for nor the money and iif I did rip apart I would not have a boat to use.

But as they say we are in different boats...well not really both Bertrams.

[Ironworker]

Yep, tough decision.

I had always assumed that I was going to be repowering at some point. I'd like to use the boat in the Bahamas and that is not the place where you want to break down especially with Volvos, IMO.

[Carl]

Going offshore changes everything, leaving the Country is in a whole new league.

[Ironworker]

I spent a portion of my day researching Cummins Options. I'm leaning towards the higher HP engines 330 to 350 hp then running them at 270 hp cruising speeds. Based on what I'm seeing its a cheaper option and would have better fuel economy. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Also I've generally been opposed to the new electronic engines but one of the dealers that I spoke with said they were essentially bullet proof at this point. He recommended the QSB 6.7 engines over the QSB 5.9's. Based on what I'm seeing the higher HP engines and new electronic engines are all roughly the same price and parts are readily available.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

The Recon mechanicals are getting scarce, so the price is jumping on what you can still get your hands on.

The electronic engines are more fuel efficient and give you less of a diesel exhaust smell. Also seem to give less soot on the transom. Running a higher horsepower will give you better fuel economy if you don't push them. Here is the issue, if you have the HP, I guarantee that you will use the Horse Power. Hard to resist on a calm day.

But they will still give you slightly better economy than mechanicals.

[DanielM]

I talked with our local Houston distributor last week and he didn’t really have a 270hp mechanical repower option. Basically he doesn’t do any business in the 250/270 hp recons. It sounded like he could get them, but they would cost as much or more than the 315/330 option. I think he sells a fair amount of the 315/330 option through the local boat yards. He told me the 315/330 was a commercial/recreational rating. So I guess 330hp for pleasure craft.

He said he mainly sells the 315/330 hp option in the remanufactured units. The warranties were good, 2 years/2000 hours, and they are readily available with a reasonable delivery time. True remanufactured engines but to OEM tolerances.

They are proud of them though. The price he quoted ‘ballpark’ was about ~50% higher than the ballpark figure he gave me five years ago when I looked at them then. It’s a good thing inflation is under control…. But they make a good product, and it is in demand so I can’t fault them.

We didn’t talk about the QSB options.

[Ironworker]

The 6BTA 270 has the freshwater aftercooler which is a nice feature. The 330 has the seawater aftercooler which is a 2 year maintenance item. Supposedly some modifications have been made in materials that make the corrosion less of a problem. The 6BTA weighs #1035 which is a plus!

The pricing issue is the mass manufacture of the engines. The QSB6.7 355/380/425 are the engines that meet tier 3 EPA standards and is the engine that is being manufactured for the US market. It is the engine that superseded the QSB5.9 . The QSB6,7 weighs 1390#s. Quiet, fuel efficient and readily available parts. It has significant advantages if you're a slow trolling. I need to troll at 2 to 3 kts for daytime swordfishing.

The QSB5.9 weigh in at #1450. All these engines weigh less than my current Volvos. Many



So what are the advantages and disadvantages of the various models!

[Carl]

The numbers don't lie...you can get better economy out of the 330's as its using raw water to cool the compressed air coming in so you get more bang for the buck. It is at a slight expense of motor life and added complexity of introducing sea water to the system. That said good maintaince the motors still have a long long life expectancy.

QSB's going electronic...still even better economy thanks to computers. They work, they run, I hear few isssues...


Me, I'm happy burning a bit more fuel, going slower, some added diesel fumes for slower turning, high iron, super dead simple mechanicals. Growing up its what I always thought of as diesels, give'em clean fuel, air and change the oil...they'll last forever.


Yanmar kinda changed that way of thinking adding a line of high reving light diesels that ran on and on...


If I had free-er funds, needed to haul a distance, run from storms I'd rethink my stance.
Running to Bahamas...I can see times you may have a need to get a move on.

[Ironworker]

In the airplane world we always say define your mission to determine what plane to buy as they are all a compromise.
I guess the same is true with boats! And in my specific case buying an engine for a boat.

So here is my mission for my B31.

the boat is going to be primarily based in N. Palm Beach, FL. The majority of its fishing there will be running to the sword grounds (20 nm one way). Slow trolling @ 2 kts for 5 to 6 hours then running back. I'll do some 6 to 7 kt trolling for pelagics and some deep dropping at idle.


Once, maybe twice a year, I'll be running to Eleuthera 230 nm. The boat will be used for high speed trolling for wahoo, deep dropping and some 6-7 kt trolling. My run to the fishing grounds is 5 NM! Occasionally I might run 20 nm just for kicks. Then back to S. Florida a couple of months later.

Slow trolling and deep dropping will be a big part of my usage, so breathing diesel smoke and noise is not going to be welcomed by the crew! So this is one point for the QSB6.7s

I can work on the 6BTAs (I think). Can I work on the QSB 6.7s? Is diagnostic software available to the end user? So it seems to me the question really is the reliability of the QSB 6.7 engines vs the 6BTAs?

[Ironworker]

One other thought on mission and fuel efficiency.

My 26' CC in the Bahamas had twin 200 carb'd Yamahas. I put thousands of trouble free hours on these engines. When it came time to repower I did the math on going to 4 strokes vs buying new carbed two strokes (yes we can still buy them in the Bahamas and they are 3 to 4K less than 4 strokes ). Fuel efficiency of the 4 strokes was about 20% better in my typical cruise profile which at $5 a gallon for fuel in the Bahamas made a big difference. I figured the upgrade to the 4 strokes would pay for itself in 3 years or so.

What I did not take into consideration is the fuel savings of the 4 strokes while High speed trolling. My 2 strokes burned 17-18 gph at 17kts and the 4 strokes burn 9-10 gph. That's a huge savings ($40 per hour) and I do a lot of HST!

So I'm trying to do something similar when comparing engines.

[Carl]

QSB's Outside my knowledge base, the only people I know with them have not racked up any hours yet.
I have to say my mechnical Cummins produce little smoke, I have been happily impressed.


But pretty sure Jimmy G put QSB's in his boat and he's a gent that uses it so consider shooting him a PM.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

Talk with a dealer. The Cummins dealer that had done mine, told me that they can get the idle speed on the electronics down so that they will idle slower. But I still think you might need stay with a 3 blade prop to help get the speed down on one engine for slow trolling. Otherwise you will need trolling valves.

With my 270's I am at 3.5 to 4 knots on one engine and 5 knots on both engines at idle. That is with a 4 blade prop.

I know that when Jimmy G repowered, and he used the same dealer I did, the dealer told me for Jimmy's boat he was able to get it to idle down to a reasonable speed for docking and moving around no wake zones. If I remember right Jimmy put the 370 QSB's in his boat and it flys.

[Ironworker]

Rick

Talk with a dealer. The Cummins dealer that had done mine, told me that they can get the idle speed on the electronics down so that they will idle slower. But I still think you might need stay with a 3 blade prop to help get the speed down on one engine for slow trolling. Otherwise you will need trolling valves.

With my 270's I am at 3.5 to 4 knots on one engine and 5 knots on both engines at idle. That is with a 4 blade prop.

I know that when Jimmy G repowered, and he used the same dealer I did, the dealer told me for Jimmy's boat he was able to get it to idle down to a reasonable speed for docking and moving around no wake zones. If I remember right Jimmy put the 370 QSB's in his boat and it flys.

I'd like to talk to Jimmy G. My Glenndinning controls has a "troll" which actuates the slower trolling speeds on the Cummins. It is non functional on the mechanical engines.

You trolling speed on your 270 is comparable to what I'm seeing on my volvos. 4 kts is a little too fast for daytime sword fishing. I can live with 2 to 3 kts.

[Snipe]

There is a company advertising Cummins 6bta 210 with twin disc gears. They are military surplus new engines. The company name is ADELMANS TRUCK PARTS. The were pretty cheap.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

Jimmy has not been on the board in a while. Try sending him a PM.

I am trying to remember where his shop is in NJ. I used to have his phone number. If I can remember where his shop is I will let you know so you can give him a call.

[El Dorado]

Tony - Elite Auto in Atco, NJ

[Tony Meola]

That's it.

ATCO, I should have remembered that one.

Rick

Try calling he shop and see if you can reach Jimmy. His last name is Gato. The shop number is (856) 767-3849

[Ironworker]

That's it.

ATCO, I should have remembered that one.

Rick

Try calling he shop and see if you can reach Jimmy. His last name is Gato. The shop number is (856) 767-3849

Jimmy responded to a PM and gave me some great info on the performance of QSB 380. I like everything about it EXCEPT the speed at 600 rpm's 4.6 kts on one engine. Over 5 kts with both engines. I'm going to have to go with trolling valves if I go with the higher HP engines.

[Carl]

Could also pull some pitch out of wheels, then add more cup. You will lose some top end but with a slower trolling speed.
Kind of a waste though to pay for the power then dumb it down.

Or do what smaller boats do...Ski Boat wheels and cruising wheels.

[Ironworker]

This is Jimmys performance with a QSB 380. Sorry for the formatting but you get the idea.

600 1-ENGINE 4.6. 600 2-ENGINE 5.7. Thats pretty frisky around the dock.

RPM LOAD THROTTLE FUEL SPEED
1700 50 45 6.1 19.1
1800 48 53 6.8 21
1900 49 53 7.3 22.5
2000 50 57 8.5 24.4
2100 54 61 9.3 25.5
2200 59 65 10.4 27.3
2300 62 69 11.1 28.3
2400 68 72 12.3 29.5
2500 74 77 13.2 30.7
2600 76 81 13.8 32.4
2700 78 85 14.8 32.8
2800 88 90 16.5 33.9
2900 90 94 17.5 35.1
3000 95 98 18.8 36.2
3050 98 100 20.4 37.4

[PeterPalmieri]

Those are some great numbers.

[Ironworker]

Yes they are! 27 kts at 10.3 gph is pretty dang good. Or loaf along at 2100 rpm 25 kts at 9.3 gph.

Jimmy is running at 20 x 26 prop with 1.75 gears.

I've currently got 1.5" shafts along 4 blade 20 x 22 with #4 cup props on my boat and 1.54 to 1 gears. I have some room to increase the size of my props in necessary.

I'm strongly leaning towards the QSB 6.7 380 hp engines if I can figure out how to get the idle speed down. Trolling valves are definitely in my future. If I go this route, I'm most likely going full "fly by wire". So I'll have a couple of new Glenndinning Actuators for sale which will work on someones Mechanical diesels

[Tony Meola]

Rick

If I remember correctly he has 1 3/4 inch shafts. Like carl said two sets of wheels depending what you are doing. JP used 3 blade orop s for striper season and 4 blade when the offshore fishing started.

[Ironworker]

My 1.5" shafts will just meet the specs for the 380's

[1962 31]

my 2 work trucks have the 6.7 and its night and day compared to the older trucks with the 5.9
the one has 400k and has never been apart and no blow by

[trace elements]

I think the fuel burn numbers from JimmyG's boat may be for only one engine. The fuel burn curve is at the link below.

https://www.sbmar.com/docs/performance- ... 364%5d.pdf

[John F.]

I assumed that the fuel burn was per motor. Is it combined? It its combined and the speed is on knts, then your 25 knt example is 2.7 nmpg. That's incredible. If it is per motor, still good

[PeterPalmieri]

I assumed that the fuel burn was per motor. Is it combined? It its combined and the speed is on knts, then your 25 knt example is 2.7 nmpg. That's incredible. If it is per motor, still good

That’s per motor not combined. Still great numbers.