Euro 7 emissions

[Yannis]

To whom it may concern:

The European commission announced today that the euro 7 norm for emissions cannot wait until 2029.
It will be implemented by 2025.
This norm is so low for emissions, that it practically forbids the production of all kinds of internal combustion engines for all cars and trucks.
The industry objected the plan and while there will certainly be concessions from both parties ( agricultural equipment, rural areas with no access to hydrogen or electricity hubs etc) one thing is certain: the way we know our cars as well as the way we commute will totally change in just a few years’ time. One way or the other.

Before anyone wonders why this thread is in the “boat section” of our site, please think twice!

[Carl]

Seems few green peoples try to figure out how much fossil fuel it takes to make "alternate CLEAN energy".

I'm all for figuring way to make less pollutants, saving trees, using less plastics etc. But do it smarter and stay away from the knee jerk reactions that seem to be the rule and not the exception.

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

Look at it this way, you will walk more and have to buy a Bike. At the end of the day, you will loose a few pounds and become more attractive to your female companions.

But to be serious, we are all facing these crazy ideas, that at the turn of a hat we can change everything and just be perfectly ok with it.

[Yannis]

Carl, only a fraction of clean energy is produced by fossil fuels.
The main part is solar and wind. In Austria, 8 % of electricity is already produced by solar panels.
In Austria! Where the sun appears for 10 minutes whenever it remembers it...

Tony, no doubt about it, we’ll all be used to it very very soon.
Look up Rhea Marine and their electric trawlers...

[DanielM]

Yannis,

Thanks for the heads up. I work in the petro chemical industry. In the segment I work in it seems to me that the US regulations seemed to lag the European regulations by a few years, but the US would typically follow the EU. (This is a casual observation by a worker, not an environmental nor regulatory specialist)

So what you’re seeing may be a precursor to what we might see here. Previously I wouldn’t have thought that there was a chance for the US federal government to outright effectively ban the production of internal combustion engines for private use. But now days who the hell knows.

The state I live in, Texas, currently generates ~15% of the total electrical output from wind. According to Wikipeidia if Texas were a country, that would put us 5th in the world for power generated from wind. So the future is coming. I’m not against electric vehicles but until there is an EV that can take me 1400 miles from my house in Texas to the Florida keys in just under 24 hours drive time, I’m staying with fossil fuel as long as I can. Like I said, not against EVs but I think they should be free market driven vs. force fed by regulation. But hey, I’m an old guy.

Also nothing is without issues. My industry is a high power consumption user so we have to interact with our power regulators ERCOT to help balance the grid. We took a hit last summer because the wind stopped blowing in West Texas and that ~15% from wind just effectively went away for a few days. We also had an issue with a lower than normal winter freeze that hammered our grid last month. The high percentage of wind power was a component in that fiasco as well. Not the only cause, but a contributor.

Oh well, like I said, that’s an interesting development you mention.

Peter, you might want to make sure and get them Cummins engines quickly while the getting is good. Lol.

[PeterPalmieri]

Yeah I better move quick. I’m all for market forces rather than regulation moving us in that direction.

My commute is now 5 miles round trip. I’m considering getting a scooter. A gas scooter gets 120MPG, it’s cheap and will run forever like a Honda lawn mower. An electric scooter can go 30 miles on a charge in the best conditions and the battery is good for 300 recharges. And takes 6 hours to recharge. The tech isn’t there yet, it’s not there on cars imagine an 8 hour drive when you try to cut down on the amount of potty stops but need a 4-6 hour layover to recharge. It doesn’t make sense yet but maybe it’s just me.

Anyone ever add a sail to their 31 and remove the cockpit and add 10 seats with peddles to turn a prop? Probably can line everything below decks with a lithium battery. When they put those offshore windmills in they also add a charging station.

[Yannis]

Hi Danny,

It’s not what we prefer. The point is that unless hard, revolutionary measures are taken, we all go down.

I have my Arizona/California cousins come over in the summer. No one turns the lights off when they exit a room. The AC at their house runs all day, while they are on my boat...the windows all open!
Wait a minute!


Pete, yep, the tech is not there yet BUT let’s give it a hand.
The other day I was blogging with a gent who is an RV’er.
Long story short, my 130w solar panels installed on my boat 8 years ago, could be replaced by 260w with the same dimensions.
Tell me about evolution!

[Carl]

Carl, only a fraction of clean energy is produced by fossil fuels.
The main part is solar and wind. In Austria, 8 % of electricity is already produced by solar panels.

Yannis you walked into that "Clean Energy" trap.


Yes solar is clean at the end.
Dig a bit to uncover the massive amount of energy it takes to produce the panels. From the mining, processing the materials which also releases many pollutants, to the huge furnaces used to make the panels. Most all of this is done in China where you know they are not containing the contaminants and the energy used to fire the furnaces and run the machinery are run on coal made electricity...and not the clean coal technology outside of China.

Wind-- sure, clean wind. What about the massive amount of energy needed to produce, erect and maintain those windmills?

Electric vehicles- clean electricity right. Well depends on how that electric was made. What about the lithium batteries? How much energy is needed to produce those batteries, to mine the lithium, to process it. What about the disposal of the batteries... how clean is it now?



Its kind of like I would never kill and eat an animal...then go to freezer and pull out some burgers to put on the BBQ. Just cause your hands aren't dirty doesn't mean someone else dirtied theirs in your place.

Blah blah blah...in the end I think it is important we continue to progress finding alternative energies that are cleaner and sustainable, just saying we are not there yet but getting closer.
I also think its good we have tree huggers and such to promote the cause otherwise we'd avoid advancing. Moderation is the word I like.

[Yannis]

Carl,

Al you're saying is plausible.
I have seen documentaries showing the pollution required for the production of those panels and wind turbines, and the batteries and the recycling of them.
But IAM NOT he who sets the emission standards.
Im just saying that soon, sooner than anticipated perhaps, our diesel or gas motors will be obsolete.
So obsolete that the marinas will have electric plugs and not gas stations.
Whether we like it or not.

[Carl]

Hopefully this will not be in my lifetime...

Well...I don't mind if its a choice, just don't force me to give up my diesels just yet.
I waited 25 years for them, ok...maybe 20.

I think its easier for people in Europe to slide into electric cars as you have had cars and trucks that would fit in the trunk of many of our vehicles. Hell, my lawnmower has more hp then some of those cars over on your side.

In any case, I see your point, we have many here that would love to see us go all electric...they preach it then jump into their Suburban Limo motorcades and to fly out in Private jets.

[Yannis]

Just like we sail out in our yachts. We burn tons of fuel.
Don't blame them.

Just like we moved from black and white to color, from gallons to liters, from horses to cars...
Even F1 is electric, just wait till all funds be moved from the F1you know into the e-F1.
Its coming, don't resist it cos it will render your life miserable, just go with the flow.
I also hate it if they took my Yanmars away, but if it became more expensive to run them than plug in and go, Id plug in and go.

[DanielM]

Yannis,

I understood that it wasn’t your call, you were just stating the current direction in the EU.

It’s the same here. The preference of most of society is being driven by the hard agenda of the few. Just my opinion.

I think most if not all people want to be good stewards of this beautiful globe we inhabit. As I work in the petrochemical industry I know regulations have their place, but I prefer market forces driving the timing vs. over regulation picking a winner in this space.

And most people don’t think cradle to grave cost of the ‘clean energy’ options like Carl mentioned. Raw material acquisition is an issue, Battery disposal will be a concern, ect…

But fortunately people are good with adopting to environment and society we live in and trying to move in a positive direction and try to enjoy life. I think I’ll go get an electric golf cart to cruise the neighborhood to help out. ;^)

It will be interesting to see how it impacts boating. Hopefully not to soon or to draconian.

[pschauss]

A couple of years ago, at a friend's funeral in Vermont, I ran into a guy who was driving a Tesla with Maine plates on it. I have forgotten exactly where he said he was coming from, but I think it might have been a four or five hour trip. He said that a recharge station could give him a partial recharge, I believe that he said 75%, in less than 30 minutes. Not ideal if you are traveling long distances, but I can see a road trip in a car like that is doable.

An analysis in the New York Times says that manufactures would have to completely stop building cars with internal combustion engines by 2035 in order for us to have a completely electric car fleet by 2050.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... nvironment

Based on the fact that the cars on my driveway 22, 17, and 12 years old, I suspect that it might take even longer than 15 years to get a complete changeover.

[Carl]

might have been a four or five hour trip. He said that a recharge station could give him a partial recharge, I believe that he said 75%, in less than 30 minutes. Not ideal if you are traveling long distances, but I can see a road trip in a car like that is doable.

Its a step backwards, personal cars opened the country up to travel. Electric is going to have us plotting courses based on were you can recharge. Horse and carriage only made so many miles a day before the horse had to recharge.

An analysis in the New York Times says that manufactures would have to completely stop building cars with internal combustion engines by 2035 in order for us to have a completely electric car fleet by 2050.

Based on those numbers with current technology were are we getting all these lithium batteries...what are we doing with the old ones. Kinda sounds like jumping out of the pot and into the frying pan...fix one problem only to create another...must be analogy Friday.


Move forward is a definite...but maybe instead if dictating the direction technology must take...see where the best technology is headed and let it flourish in the best direction.

[Bruce]

The advancement in technology comes with a price for those with intelligence enough to understand how society smoothly transitions from one thing to another.
Unfortunatly green in nature has become a political dog and pony show and a taxpayer supported deep pit that keeps caving in. The majority pushing green don't have the intelligence to understand not only the limits of technology, but more important how to smoothly impliment it. They want to shove it down our throats and work out the problems later. The mantra of every politician around the world.

I get many European countries wanting to move from fossel fuels because they themselves don't have the resources and being held captive from importers doesn't give one the independence from the soviets and chinese and other suppliers who by one stroke can't cripple a country.

I've traveled enough around the folks who own those 200' and up yachts and your not about to say park em and convert to electric motors just like the two faced celebs who cry green like decaprio and go flying off in their private jets to some green summit.

Face it folks there will be those who are excused from carbon taxes and such bullshit while the commoners like us will pay the price of green.

Electric boats are a novelty mostly to get around those lakes which have banned internal combustion engines.

I'm not sure how many understand electric cars like tesla, but there are voltages present that will kill you dead in an instant. I don't see that changing anytime soon and being implimented in a wet environment.

We allow what we allow of our elected leaders and frankly deserve everything we get shoved down our throats at this point.
Just ask those who lost their jobs on the pipeline but are promised retraining for greener jobs. When that will come who knows but in the mean time those of us who work will support the continued dolling out of unenployment benefits till the chickens come home to roost.

I've got a case of 1/4 hp electric fan motors if anyone wants to rip their gas hog engines out of their 31 and repower I'll give ya.

I wouldn't worry too much, these opressive gov't thugs don't have the man power to make people do anything. All we are living under is constant threats and like the neiborhood hood bully who lives by threats, beat the shit shit out of them one time and they go away.

[ktm_2000]

a couple of weeks ago I had a friendly conversation with a green NIMBY who was fighting a small 345MW natural gas powerplant in the town next to hers. She went on to provide me some great info which I previously had not known which is that you can get a real time update of where the power is coming from for the electrical grid. She was telling me how her group was fighting the power plant because there was too much power on the grid and because so much electricity was being made by renewables, she also added in how her group was also working to get all the nuclear power plants in New England shut down too.

Here's the site she provided me for new england - https://www.iso-ne.com/

I took a screenshot of right now - a Clear sky sunny and really windy day
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BpqMjKSW2GieyXhKA

Some funny numbers from right now --

Actual usage 13065MW
% from "Renewables" = 19% =2482 MW

% from Wind - this is a really windy day = 55% most days I've looked at this it was 30% = 1365MW. The 55% is deceptive, it is a % of the renewables, they should really show it in a total % which 10.4%

Solar is shown in a % of renewables at 11% = 273MW, they should really show it in a total % which 2.9%

So after rambling along rattling off #s, on a good day for renewables, they produce 13.3% of all the power we need "right now" with 97% of all cars and trucks still with internal combustion engines.

I would like to ask some questions, If today right now we would need 16500 MW with most of the auto fleet on gas engines, how much electricity would be needed if we were all electric cars? - I don't know the answer but the number would be most likely 2-4x that number.

For a follow-up question - if all the "green renewables" only make 13.3% of power now, how are they going to
a. provide 100% of current grid power requirements?
b. start providing 2-4x current grid power requirements?

I'd like some of what the green folks are smoking....... practicality wise, it just isn't going to happen without something changing aka massive quality of living decrease.

edited numbers when I realized the 16500MW was peak forecast for later today and actual for right now was 13065 - so it is actually worse, not at peak demand only 13% of power can be met by solar or wind, %s will be much smaller when demand peaks tonight.

[ktm_2000]

my conversation was "friendly" with my co-worker

you should have seen my neighbor's face as well of their anger expressed at me when I walked over to talk with them holding a small pocket compass asking why they got 18 solar panels put on their house on the NORTH side of their roof face.

a lot of folks with good intentions are not terribly practical also I think there are a lot of SCAM artists out there too feeding off those good intentions.

[Carl]

I think there are a lot of SCAM artists out there too feeding off those good intentions.

Not sure if it's still the same way, but lots of companies made huge money on rebates and tax credits from the government for installing panels. Customers were thrilled with tax breaks for having them installed....If they worked and made electric, saved some coin on electric bill it was icing on the cake.

[Tony Meola]

https://www.overdriveonline.com/regulat ... s-in-state

For anyone living in Oregon the elimination of Diesel fuel is closer than you think. It could happen in 7 years if they get their way.

This should be interesting when they want over the road truckers to deliver goods into the State.

So you wonder how they are going to produce enough electricity under their green plans. They are not. The whole country will become like California with Black outs taking place. Oh and those home generators that run on Natural Gas, that will not happen. Here in NJ our wacked out Governor wants to ban all Gasoline and Natural Gas by 2035.

This is coming to a location near you if we do not get someone with common sense back into office.

[ktm_2000]

The road to hell is paved in good intentions.

I look at the issue from an engineering perspective, if you use x amount of energy today, how do you continue to use x amount of energy tomorrow? I think the idea of the "great reset" is not coming up with x amount of energy tomorrow but x minus some large %. All us debt serfs not in the .1% aren't going to appreciate that shift.

I see no practical, I emphasize practical method of generating 20x+ more electricity from "renewables" than we do today in a short ~10 year time frame. Nevermind the challenge of being able to store enough power for practical use (battery technology) as areas like the NE where I live probably don't have the capability to generate that quantity of power without covering all available land with some piece of power generating equipment.

In the long run, this switch to electric power only works if a massive switch to nuclear power is made.

In lieu of that shift to nuclear, Folks have alluded to the amount of power to make all these green technologies but what about the raw materials such as rare earth minerals? There would be wars fighting over access to those minerals.

[Carl]

The road to hell is paved in good intentions.

In the long run, this switch to electric power only works if a massive switch to nuclear power is made.

In lieu of that shift to nuclear, Folks have alluded to the amount of power to make all these green technologies but what about the raw materials such as rare earth minerals? There would be wars fighting over access to those minerals.

Nuclear??? Why use something that works?


Oh right...insane regulations drive the cost of building,maintaining and insuring them though the roof.


Too dangerous on land...but our military fleets has been nuclear powered for years.

[Tony Meola]

Carl

The new designs are completely different. The cooling options do not require need them to draw millions of gallons of water in to cool the reactors and then spit the hot water out impacting the local water environment. But that comes with the good and the bad.

Ask the guys that fished Oyster Creek in Lacey Township for years. Creek never froze and they caught fish that would only be up here in the summer all winter. Guaranteed stripers on opening day every March 1. The big question always was how many juvenile fish were killed when they got sucked into the cooling water. Now the Plant is closed so it will be a few years before we find out the impact on the Bay.

[Yannis]

Or the fish were fluorescent, with two tails...

[Yannis]

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/16/2233 ... als-maersk

[Rawleigh]

I see the clipper ship son the way back! Somehow I don't think all of this is going to pan out the way the greenies think.

[Amberjack]

Things change over time as they should. We humans survived by being adaptable. The horse guys probably chuckled about the new fangled automobiles and now the internal combustion guys are throwing shade on the EV's. In 10 years EV's won't even be recognizable from what they are today and will have solved the issues with range and charging stations. Offshore vessels are a different, more specialized matter and I'm not sure what will happen with them or when but I don't think my Yanmars are gonna be taken away anytime soon. Maybe a challenge for the next generation owner.

One thing I know electrically powered vessel owners will never experience, the wonderful smell of diesel exhaust when casting off the lines on a crisp, clear morning.

We're running 50 year old technology and having a lot of fun doing it. Still, Yannis' solar panels have some appeal to me. Inexpensive, easy to install. A lot less environmental impact to build a solar panel than a generator and I bet he hasn't had to change the oil for years. And a lot quieter in the anchorage. Guess I have a foot in both camps.

[Yannis]

Doug,

Im occasionally eavesdropping in some RV blogs, so that I keep up to date in what I think will be my next project, once I can no longer pull ropes and anchors...
Anyway, I was astonished to find out that the panels I installed 8 years ago only produce about 60% the wattage a new panel can produce today, for the same size.
One other point is sun exposure. You have to look into that up there, before you decide anything, but for the guys in Florida its a no brainer...