Over Sized Rudders

[Midastouch73]

Im trying to weigh my cost options for a set of new rudders. Besides High Tide marine does anyone have a line on other sources for Oversized Rudders?

[kross1]

BOSSLER & SWEEZEY

1540 Montauk Highway
Bellport, NY 11713

(t) 631.286.0458
(w) www.propfixer.com
(e) info@propfixer.com

These guys made me oversized stainless steel rudders for my Bertram 28 they came out beautiful. They were a little pricey about 800 each but worth it.

[Craig Mac]

Whats are the advantages/disadvantages of stainless VS bronze material?

[Yannis]

Kross,

What are the dimensions of your new rudders?
Could you possibly post a pic?

I had a mishap this summer whereby I had to maneuver with one motor....impossible.
Mind you, mine are already larger than stock, I wonder how much larger they should be so as to guarantee single motor maneuvers.
Thanks.

[pschauss]

I got the oversized rudders for my 31 from

http://www.bobbysolespropeller.com/

They had Capt Pat's design with all of the measurements for my boat. All I had to do was tell them whether my tillers were above or below the rudder shelf.

Running on one engine with these rudders is no problem.

[scenarioL113]

About 10 or 12 yrs ago I modified my original B28 rudders. A friend ran aground and bent a rudder shaft and he gave me his old Bronze rudder.
I was able to cut strips off of this rudder and add it to my existing rudders.

I added about 1-3/4 on the trailing edge and added about the same amount to the bottom edge. I MIG welded them with silicone bronze wire and 100% argon (IIRC). I beveled the edges along all the weld areas to allow maximum penetration and ran a few beads to get good coverage and then grinded them to make them somewhat smooth.

They are holding up and my improvement is NIGHT and DAY with good maneuverability on one engine. Sometimes in a bad crosswind one engine steering can be difficult but doable and otherwise excellent.

I figured what did I have to lose and it has worked pretty well.

My only cost was a bottle of 100% argon (under $100 and a LB of Silicone Bronze wire at about $15) and the time it took me to remove the rudders and reinstall.

[Carl]

I was able to cut strips off of this rudder and add it to my existing rudders.

I added about 1-3/4 on the trailing edge and added about the same amount to the bottom edge. I MIG welded them with silicone bronze wire and 100% argon (IIRC).

Aside from TIG welding this is exactly what I plan to do this winter. Drop them and add a bit in front, behind and beneath.
I never made the suggestion as Captain Patrick sold his rudders here. But one could bring to a prop shop and ask them to braze a couple strips on. Same material and process they use to repair bronze wheels

For what its worth, my rudders worked well before the conversion. With the bigger props the boat just don't turn well at speed. Turning the wheel is more of a suggestion now. On my first few runs I had to open the hatches to see if rudder was turning. They were...they just were not turning the boat.

Slow on one motor she turns fine. I have the original larger of the 3 Bertram rudder designs.

[kross1]

Yannis
I can get the dimensions and take a photo possibly this Saturday.
As for the advantage of stainless steel over bronze I do not know. I did not have a choice that’s what he said he could make me the stainless. I do know in the fall when I remove the boat it cleans up very easily.

[scenarioL113]

Aside from TIG welding this is exactly what I plan to do this winter. Drop them and add a bit in front, behind and beneath.
I never made the suggestion as Captain Patrick sold his rudders here. But one could bring to a prop shop and ask them to braze a couple strips on. Same material and process they use to repair bronze wheels

For what its worth, my rudders worked well before the conversion. With the bigger props the boat just don't turn well at speed. Turning the wheel is more of a suggestion now. On my first few runs I had to open the hatches to see if rudder was turning. They were...they just were not turning the boat.

Slow on one motor she turns fine. I have the original larger of the 3 Bertram rudder designs.

TIG is much better but we did this actually was 15 years ago and we did not have a TIG welder back then so we MIG'ed it with success. I am good with a MIG tho so that helped. The TIG would provide a better puddle and allow less build up for the grinding. I do TIG a bit now and own a good machine but still suck at it. It is an art for sure.

An old friend who was a marine mechanic and a master welder at the FDNY Marine shops suggested to braze it but I am not that great at brazing. I know I would have trouble keeping it hot enough....again for a pro no problem...

I did not have room to add to the front of my rudder bc getting my props off is close as it is so did not want to make it more complicated. My friend said the same thing as you did though about the leading edge

I thought I had pics somewhere. I checked both my PCs and all the old folders. Found a lot of pics from my conversion but not of the rudders. I did the rudders when I had my gassers and was 5 yrs b4. I will look a bit more and post if I find them

[bob lico]

my rudders are ss and huge in fact more than the size of 55' Viking. i can go lock to lock at 35 knots and the boat will literally dig in at last 4'' from stern along with the reversed chines will cut the water to make 90 degree turn -----seriously absolutely wild and i had two members of this forum try it, you need this instant massive rudders response together with race car roller bearing steering to steer inside the trough of huge waves to steer the boat to a 30 degree angle over the top in gale warning waves.trust me there is no room for mistakes when you are committed you must follow thru and the rudders are essential.

[Midastouch73]

What about did the pair hit you for?

I got the oversized rudders for my 31 from

http://www.bobbysolespropeller.com/

They had Capt Pat's design with all of the measurements for my boat. All I had to do was tell them whether my tillers were above or below the rudder shelf.

Running on one engine with these rudders is no problem.

[Tony Meola]

Midas

10 years ago they were $1,200 so I would think they have to go close to $2,000 but give Bobby Soles a call, they will tell you what they run.

Craig

Not sure if there is an advantage of Bronze over Stainless. They have been putting Bronze rudders and props on boats for years with no problem. I believe it is only a matter of choice and possibly cost.

[Carl]

I plan to TIG weld because that is what I do best and I have the filler. I use the MIG welder for production or when lots of buildup is needed fast.
Brazing would be about the best way in my opinion...but now that is something I am lousy at.

I believe Bronze holds up better then SS is salt water, especially around the welds.

Bronze rudders are cast which can be pricey for only a few rudders as a pattern has to be made and setups have to be done. But in quantity castings are less expensive. So boat builders either use standard cast rudders or design a rudder and send out to be cast making dozens at a time.

If a rudder is a specialty where few may be needed, then fabricating from SS (316L) is the best option. SS comes in plates of various thickness, burn, plasma, laser, waterjet or saw to size and configuration. Put your boat shaft drop in for rudder shaft and start welding. For custom its the way to go...make alot have cast in bronze.

[Craig Mac]

Is it more economical to buy new rudders or have a shop add material to your original rudders?---I would assume the later.....

[scenarioL113]

That is the question... Comes down to what is better for the individual.

Look the shaft size of the rudder can only handle so much stress so adding to an original rudder (depending how much you add) is probably OK. A brand new fabricated rudder is def (probably) ergonomically better thought out and balanced how it is on the shaft but at the end of the day if it is on the same diameter shaft as the original it can only be so big. (I think anyway)

For a DIY'er or if you know someone that can add to an original is def a very low cost alteranative that if done correctly will work adequately for its purpose. It has for me.

I wish I had the pics of when we did it bc I know I took pics... Thats was 15yrs ago and no camera phones. Prob on some old floppy disk somewhere...

In my case I am not throwing so much prop at it as Bob or some of the other much higher HP Berts and not stressing it as much. I would not hesitate to do it on a B31 though.

[pschauss]

What about did the pair hit you for?

The Bobby Soles rudders were $2,053 for the pair including shipping.

[Carl]

Is it more economical to buy new rudders or have a shop add material to your original rudders?---I would assume the later.....

Depends on the shop. A shop your friendly with that has a piece of bronze around or they braze well with plenty of filler on hand they can be done pretty quick for little money. A shop that doesn't have a good source for the bronze, doesn't have a way to weld or braze additional material on it can start to add up to pricey.
Then as SenarioL113 said add more then the shaft can handle and you'll be dropping the rudder blade. How much and were you add can really add lots of stress to the shaft. I'm no engineer or designer, but I have seen plenty of rudders to know the basic proportions and wouldn't add a whole lot more thinking bigger is better where a shop not familiar will do as asked.

[kross1]

[kross1]

Hope you can see the numbers in the previous post..

[Yannis]

Thank you very much.
Yes I can read digitally processed files, lol, I now have to translate them into metric so it makes sense!

[kross1]

These where my rudders when I got the boat never used the boat with them so I don't know how it drove.
I don't know if either of them are original.