Bertram 25 conversion to an outboard powered CC

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Oct 16th, '19, 12:27

Hi Joe,

If the boat was completely stock I would 100% agree with your thought process as I've sat in the stern corners fishing and had water come in the scuppers. I would regularly run with the scupper plugs in if I had a bunch of people on board.

I've changed some stuff in the project, would these design changes change your mind on it?

1. From I/Os with @1300lbs in the stern to 300 Outboard + bracket @800lbs = should be about 500lbs less weight in the stern
2. The deck will be at least 1" higher than stock. I left the original deck as a lip around the perimeter of the boat and the new deck is 1" nida-core will be sitting on top of that. I've glassed in the old scupper holes and will be cutting new ones higher up.
3. The deck from the old drop down area back will be watertight. I'm not saying water couldn't get under the deck but for the purposes of water coming in the scuppers it won't have a way to get under the deck easily unless I had a wave come into the cockpit and the boat had 6" or more of water over the whole deck.
4. The boat will be a trailer queen, stored in a driveway, trailered for every use, if she is in the water someone will be on her.

I'd like to see pics on how Cam's boat sits in the stern and have time to make a final call but ideally I think that I still want large scuppers.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Oct 16th, '19, 12:38

playing devil's advocate with myself. Here's a pic of her sitting on a mooring at the Vineyard, if you zoom in the scuppers are in the dark band, not a lot of freeboard.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WNQf7wR4mfm6hxez7

I think with I/Os at rest the scuppers were about 3" above the water line. Guesstimating they will be @4-1/2" after renovation.

Maybe the smart thing to do is not cut them out until I run the boat a few times and she how she sits. The area in the transom where the scuppers will go will be solid glass and it won't be that bad to cut them in later.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Oct 17th, '19, 10:47

Good idea on waiting.

My boat has two hatches, for the batteries, and access to the rudder shelf
in the stern just behind the engine box. Water comes in the scuppers and flows into the hatches and into the bilge, so I plug them if drifting or at anchor, or if anyone is sitting in the stern. I do have flaps on the scuppers and they slow down the flow a bit.

scot · Post by **scot** » Oct 24th, '19, 21:00

Cockpit deck, deck drains (scuppers) are an issue with the 25s. More than one boat reported sinking at the dock on the old 25 board. When I picked mine up, the PO had 2 plugs hanging on the stern cleats and concrete sacks in the bow. I read into that "raise the cockpit, get some weight forward".
The twin V-8 inboard boats decks were 4" higher than the IO boats. I have some old pictures somewhere, showing the V-8 boats deck drains vs the IO deck drains. The V-8 boat drains are 4" ABOVE the reverse chine, the IO boat drain are basically in the top of the reverse chine. Mine was an IO boat, I am raising the cockpit deck 4" to gain some cockpit drainage insurance. With the cockpit deck (sole) raised 4", the combing height is the same as the 31s.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Oct 25th, '19, 09:21

Scot,

I would have to think boats that sank, took a lot of rain water which was able to get into the bilge via the drains in the drop down portion or through the fuel tank hatch then migrated aft and the extra weight lowered the stern until the scuppers were at the water line and then water got in the scuppers and up and over the lip around the I/O engine cover which only had a 3/4" lip around it.

That is good information on the inboard boats. I haven't seen an inboard b25 in person so I didn't know how the deck was setup. My deck will be raised 1" over the stock I/O deck, I'm hoping that along with no easy ways for water to get under the deck will allow me to run bigger scuppers.

One of the things I liked most about my B25 was that it had a lot of height from the deck to the gunnel and I got a feeling that I was in the boat rather than standing on top of it. I'm fairly tall and like gunnels to come up higher than my knees so I don't think I would like the deck raised much more than what I've done.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Oct 25th, '19, 09:47

Twin inboard V-Drives.

During hurricane Sandy, the power went out, the rains came and the batteries finally died. When I was allowed back on the island about a month later, the water in the bilge was up to the deck.Just below the oil dipstick. The scuppers were a hair above the waterline, but water wasn't coming in until I stepped on the stern. I had to set the sump pump in the bilge, then get off the boat so no new water was coming in. I was lucky it didn't go down.

That being said if there are two people standing in the stern, with no water in the bilge, the water will come in the scuppers. The plugs are a must if I am standing still with people on board. I did, however, remove a lot of weight forward when I rewired and removed the lower station so the stern is a little lower now.

Scuppers showing about 3" above the water.
https://www.facebook.com/enduranceb25/p ... =3&theater

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Oct 25th, '19, 11:13

Wow!!! you were lucky that you were able to get back to the boat in time. A month must have seemed like an eternity to wait. I'm pretty sure an I/O boat subjected to the same scenario would have sunk.

In looking at your photos, I came across one with the boat on stands in the yard and it seems that I will end up with my scuppers very close to where you have yours now. I guess I didn't realize how far back the motors are in an inboard boat either. The main difference between our 2 boats will be how much weight is placed and where in the boat. It is easier to make a hole larger than to make a large hole smaller, I think the plan still will be to try for bigger scuppers but start off with standard size ones and see what happens.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Oct 28th, '19, 08:08

start off with standard size ones and see what happens.

Sounds right to me.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Jun 3rd, '20, 21:22

with all the BS going on in the world I've given up on converting my savings into a new outboard motor this year so I've been in no rush to start work on my project. I want to make sure I have everything ready for spring of next year so I finally got myself motivated and started fabricating an item tonight.

I will be using the same brand of Jackplate that Cam has used and will be leaving my transom whole so I need some way of getting items up from underneath the deck
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zWEinXY34HrNxr9Y7

Since I have no shame in using other's Great ideas I planned on replicating this B31 inside transom
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tkAujqvZKhyYnHMS7

In order to make a nice radius, last year I took a sonotube and wrapped it with packing plastic then glassed on 3 layers of 1708. I cut the sonotube with glass into quarters the long way and made up a cheap and dirty mold and cut pieces of nidacore to leave myself plenty of excess material so I could scribe it into the boat. Then hot glued the top part of the side pieces of nidacore to the mold.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Hb4R6od9B7i7YXUV8
Profile view
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wzVvazvjatnjWXE48

From there I mixed up some resin and wet out the nidacore and fiberglass corners and placed the main flat section down then lifted up the bottom of the side pieces and wet out under there. I then mixed up some bonding compound and made fillets to span the difference of the height of the nidacore.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QaRyXjf3pE6r9qKK8

Tomorrow night I will glass the backside with 1 layer of 1708 and 1 layer of 1.50z mat, from there I will have to make the mold smaller and glass the front facing side.

It is nice to get going again.....................

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Jun 4th, '20, 06:57

Crafty! it will look good and will allow you easy access.

Not sure if I mentioned this, but in the water, the jackplate doesn't come close to raising the lower unit out of the water. This requires lots of tilt: https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/uV ... tf3kMi158Y

You may not care since you are on a trailer.

One other note. the bottom plate of my jackplate is wet at rest. After a month in the water it had a good amount of marine growth.

Cam

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Jun 4th, '20, 08:50

Cam,

Thanks for the photo, I will be primarily trailering so I'm hoping to use the max available tilt and no lift to protect the skeg while traveling on the trailer. My main concern is to be able get the prop high enough out of the water to be able to clear a fishing line or other debris, based upon your pic, I believe that if your engine was tilted to just about touch where the transom was, the skeg would be in the water but the prop would be exposed.

I seem to remember that you did the 10" setback, I went with a larger setback so that should help a little bit with the angle by pushing the engine back further. I am going to hold my course for now and if It turns out that I can't raise it enough I will do a very small notch, I'm thinking a small @3" deep tray, not piercing the inside coaming.

Did you coat your jackplate with antifouling? I know that there is special stuff for aluminum

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Jun 4th, '20, 11:33

I'll take some better pictures when I get the boat back in the water. My fabricator is out sick, so limited progress on the pipe work. And I have a list of "do before re-splashing" items. I know you are not a fan of Jamestown, but I'm using this for the jackplate:

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... art=490554

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Jun 4th, '20, 20:23

I glassed the backside with 1 layer of 1708 and 1 layer of 1.5oz mat tonight after a quick grind of the fillets.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LFpJckn37fAJvZqx6

as the first layup for the year for me, it wasn't fun, the verticals didn't want to stay up and I've never done to well dealing with mat. I got it done but it is not as cleanly done as I would have liked. The front side will be a lot easier tomorrow night.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Jun 5th, '20, 22:13

I agree with Cam! Crafty. Almost everyday you can learn something from this site. Are you going to add wings to the access area so it goes across the entire stern or just fit this piece to the star and then fair and paint the stern wall after putting the cleat pads in?

Mark

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Jun 6th, '20, 13:22

I glassed the front side last night and cleaned up the rough edges this morning, I've left myself plenty of excess to scribe it into the boat
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qAmrktDDvxePLu6X9

As it sits in the photo the inside face of the panel is 12" off the transom, I'm doing a little second guessing the hydraulic jackplate.... If I went with a non-movable variety and notched the transom leaving the part I just created where it is in the pic, I wouldn't loose too much cockpit space and I would get almost full tilt on an outboard motor.

I am just amusing myself with the idea for now as I already have the bracket and would eat a bunch of $$$ changing course.

Any which way, I will scribe / glass it into the boat after the deck is glassed in, from there I will add a 3/4" marine plywood which spans 45 degrees from the transom to the side of the hull n the corners to mount my stern cleats. I will "try" to figure out a way to put them into the corners and be able to get my arm down inside the back so I could through bolt cleats.

Once all is glassed into the boat, I will fair and gelcoat everything when I do the deck and insides of the hull.

btw - if I keep the full transom, the piece won't stick out that much, the whole thing will stay under the gunnels.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Jun 6th, '20, 13:40

one last item, if folks were going to do this for themselves, here's some things I could have done better.

I didn't reduce the thickness of the panel where the corner fiberglass piece met. When glued together it ended up making the corner fiberglass piece stand proud and I had to grind it down and spent about 1hr getting the piece ready to glass

here's the lip visible in this pic
https://photos.app.goo.gl/m1Cu1Ztm2YXUmpkt9

I had to grind the fiberglass corner piece back almost to the blue of the bonding compound
https://photos.app.goo.gl/38eaSDdd6fWZXdy99

and one other point, Hot glue when hit with a grinder melts almost instantly and holds a lot of heat, so flicking off what you think is some glass can give you a nasty burn when the glue sticks to your fingertips and won't come off quickly.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 24th, '20, 21:53

I've been slacking pretty badly on getting my boat done this year. A couple weeks ago I got out fishing with my buddy and we got into some striped bass east of Boston and we didn't catch a bass under 30# with several in the mid 40#s. It was enough of a kick to get my act in gear and get my boat done so I started doing some work.

Where I left off I had painted the bilge with 3 coats of paint and the last coat I dripped in a few spots and it looked pretty bad.

I spent an afternoon sanding out the drips and put down 2 more coats of paint and got the bilge looking good. I didn't take any pics of the progress of the painting.

The next part was getting ready to install all the wiring and hoses, etc under the deck and I quickly realized that I didn't have enough chases to run all the stuff under the deck and then leave space for difficult things to pass such as engine wiring harnesses and transducer cables.

I ended up creating a v shaped groove in the foam outside the main stringers and cut slots in the 3/4" strip of Nidacore which I put on top of the stringers to get them the right height.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/218AaU7fhgYyw1TM7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/SgXMrxcvvd5knNWu5

A following day I put 2 layers of 1.5oz mat in the channels I created
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hW5uev2TG3TVunm87
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nyfsGWyE4GAChHNh8

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 24th, '20, 22:05

Today I took the day off and worked on the boat all day.

I setup the motor well area with 2 terminal strips and ran wires to the terminal strips.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MRM9ERS4NAiLhKne9

I installed a Y valve for the 1.5" hoses which run up to my fishboxes and ran the main battery cables from the battery box mid boat to the transom
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mXnCSMZbeSmrXvEN7

I created shorter lengths of battery cable to go from the battery switch to the 4 batteries (2 house, 2 starting) as well as created cables to go to the battery combiner
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6iEx8UpKTXAY9uzj8

I also installed the vent and fill lines for the fuel tank as well as started out with the green bonding wires. I didn't have a length of wire when I did the fill and will have to take that back off and put in a bonding wire to the fill.

I'm hoping to finish up enough stuff under the deck to be able glue the deck down this weekend.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 25th, '20, 19:36

I did some modifications to my deck pieces to allow hoses to come up from underneath the deck

Over the fuel tank area will have a livewell so I cut a hole in the deck to allow the fill and drain hoses to come up. I had reinforced this piece with a 1/2 section of PVC pipe and since I needed to cut near there I ended up putting 2 layers of 1708 wrapping the deck top to bottom. The Black line will be the outline of the inside of the livewell / leaning post. Before glassing I radiused the edge of the deck piece so that I could mix up some filler and create a nice radius so there wouldn't be any issue of going around a sharp corner and getting lots of air bubbles and bad glass bond.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/niwRZHCoMeS4mYAe6
the back side of the cut showing the PVC reinforcement
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vd4yauRH25Naxh958

U shaped cut out in the transom with strips of glass cut and ready to glass. This space will allow access to outboard bolts as well as pass hoses and wires. I will end up enclosing this space on the transom so there won't be an issue with water being able to get under the deck easily.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/f6mX6SJ4JeETTjtB7

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 26th, '20, 19:09

Not a lot to show from tonight's work...

I drilled and tapped holes to mount my bilge pumps on top of the 2 fiberglass pieces which I glassed into the bilge.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/W9DdSnP2cn1okF8ZA
Then I took on the task of re-using the original stainless steel fuel tank hold down straps. I seem to remember them being screwed into the sides of the stringers and coming together along the center of the boat and attached with a single bolt.

Since I already had the fuel tank in the boat and I wasn't going to be able to get it out by myself, I modified the straps to screw into the sides of the stringers and stop in the lip of the stringer. Let's just say I am not great at metal fabrication.... I had a tough time drilling out the holes with what I thought were metal cutting bits and in a rush getting bit by mosquitoes I bent one of the pieces the wrong way and had to bang it back. I got it done, is it the greatest? No

I put 4 #10 screws into the side of the stringer and 2 into the bottom of the lip, it should be good enough.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uuArtxZM2KcTVmvk8

Edit : I went out over lunch and took pics of yesterday's work - here's the strap setup. I will work on getting some rubber underneath the straps before the deck goes down.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KqYLxrERgneTxKyY8

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 27th, '20, 19:17

A prize package came in from Defender Marine today and I installed 2 of the battery boxes on the outside battery trays, the inside ones don't fit so I am going to drill holes through the base of the area and use the steel rods and top. I got one in tonight, Vise grips on the steel rod and a wrench underneath seems to work. I will probably have a tough time with the ones which are further away from the holes and be cursing the other 3 rods tomorrow.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZoLfDd6cPuS8iVhz6

I roughed in the livewell fill and drain hoses and left plenty of extra on both ends. I had bought a longer length of 1.5" hose so I used that for everything, I will have to put a converter piece from the 1 1/8" supply and go into the larger hose for the supply line. I'm not sure if it is clear in the photo but the pad I put in for the thru-hull /seacock is on the starboard side across from the white bilge pump.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3opdtWM2no6ddymQ7

I also roughed in the macerator pump, I went with a whale gulper so I wouldn't have to worry about impeller blades overheating if I forgot it on too long. I put 4 bolts through the bulkhead temporarily and will have to go out tomorrow and purchase some longer ones so I can put the bolts in from the back side, put a washer and nut on the inside to lock the "stud" to the bulkhead then another washer and then install the pump. I want to make sure I can easily replace this as I've heard a lot of horror stories of macerator pumps failing regularly.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4UCrApvoRsSh65Wp7
I didn't have a lot of space for the pump and the end is close to the corner. Since the barb is screw in, I am wondering if the company makes a 90 degree angle supply barb, does anyone know if they do?

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 28th, '20, 19:10

A rough day on the project front...............

I cut out of work early and got the macerator pump onto a set of studs - this went OK - should be easy to maintain going forward
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ywPgpJtXEC7PV6eq9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Jx7tV13FnWkAirPE8

I couldn't find a set of hangar bolts in 10-24 in stainless steel so I used regular steel for now, also the direction of the pump wanted the water side to be up - Not so OK - I will have to re-do the hangar bolts some time
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2dZ8fXPPnoHYHiUJ7

Then all heck broke out..... I tried finishing up the stud mounts for my battery switch inside the battery box, 3" bolts to short, 4" too long so I cut them down with a cut off wheel. I then tried to hold the bolt tight to the bulkhead with a washer and nylock nut from a new box of 1/4-20 stainless nuts that I started using the day before and used my drill driver to speed things up and got 2 on then the 3rd hung up bad. I tried to back it off and realized the thread was screwed up, I couldn't back it off easy, ended up cutting of the bolt, next came the realization that the other 2 were f'd up so I had to cut them off too. frustrated to all heck sweating inside the hot house ( boat is still covered in shrink wrap) I got up and spilled my tackle box full of nuts and bolts - most nicely fell in the gap between the stringers and fuel tank. Oh Joy now I get to pull the tank................ the 2 straps were put on with the same 1/4-20 nuts, had to cut them off too. I tested another bolt and nut by hand and that nut was bad too.

I ended up setting up a 2x6 on edge to a 2x4 like an upside down T and had it sit on the gunnels and used a chainfall to lift the tank. - why couldn't this of happened a couple days ago, I could have had it easy with the tank straps?

I got all the hardware out and everything back together again in a reasonable position to be able to bond the deck down tomorrow but it is going to rain tomorrow so I'm going to the cape for the weekend, I've got monday off and will work on the boat then

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Aug 29th, '20, 06:34

Wow. I've had days like that on this project...many. "some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you"

Never had an issue with hardware. McMaster Carr has shipped many boxes to my house. Machine screw example: 91735A383 I really like the serrated "wood" screws I get from them, example: 95639A331 These are a Simpson Strong Tie product. They self-thread and grip fiberglass very well and are available in all sizes and head styles.

All projects have a beginning and an end. Mine is very close the end now, but there were many, many times during the years that I never thought I would make it. Brick walls that impeded progress would spring up over night. Getting close now...upholstery going in: https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/rQ ... RPDKi4JCyX

Cam

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 29th, '20, 09:11

Holy smokes Cam, that’s world class fabrication.
Had you been any closer I’d ask you to do mine too!

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 30th, '20, 19:33

Cam - the level of work you've put into your boat is amazing. I can't say I am doing the same level....

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 30th, '20, 19:46

I was going to come home sunday and glue in my deck on my day off monday but my wife informed me that we had doctors appointments for our kids on monday. She was more than generous to come home saturday night so I could glue in my deck today.

I did some final prep then put the deck panels in and I marked off exactly where each panel should end up and took some pics to remember where everything is.

fishboxes
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cb35gfxXxGEVW1xEA
batteryboxes - pink lines are pull lines for any future wiring
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sqGdHmJkrUZhfaZ4A
The old motorwell
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pKGn2NMAeNorXwxr7

The deck went down fairly easily, I mixed up some vinylester with some ground up fiberglass powder along with cabosil for thickening. I used star bit construction screws along with a washer to hold the deck down. I had the 2 lips on the panel over the fuel tank so that went in first, then the stern panel, then the bow panel with the lip on the back section, lastly the 2nd from the bow with no lips on it.

getting the 2nd panel down
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eRj8Yn5gFu2zRDJo8

2nd panel in
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tFR827WhyEHGzMtw8

the front 2 panels in
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NswkSxzCgWYqgwBv5

I used excess bonding gooop to fill in the edges when I had extra each batch, when done I mixed up some fairing compound to fill in the remainder.

Looking forward
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GJjgUnALNcVwUBtR6
Looking aft
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nnR61JGmZBrYfcrk7

I feel good... really good. It is nice to be past most of the stuff in the bilge.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Aug 31st, '20, 07:30

Heed what Joe is saying regarding scuppers. Several 25s have sunk due to their low scuppers.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Aug 31st, '20, 14:50

Good day eating the bear! Pre-wiring is cheating! Good foam job outboard of the stringers.

i think your boat is going to be very light in the stern with a single engine (comparing to my arrangement). My chines are still about an inch above the water with pipe work and 60 - 70 gallons of fuel. You have alot of mass forward. Leave some room for lead pigs in the bilge or go for twin engines!

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 31st, '20, 19:24

I didn't get started until noon and then I worked on filling the gaps between the deck and put down a couple coats of vinlyester fairing compound and then let it cure for a couple of hours and worked on the part which will be glassed into the transom.

Looking at the part - mostly scribed into the transom - still need to take another 3/4 inch off the sides
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LTC4Ua1kqAgdfQjP6

Top View
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yL3kwJM69TcdoX2A

After the fairing compound cured I then sanded off the excess and prepped to glass the seams and edges in the front part of the cockpit
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JX8rPFKzs2MZULrB6

After glassing in the edges and seams - at the end my gloves ripped and I got some resin on my hand, I finished doing the pieces which were wet out but then let some of the resin kick off while I cleaned my hands. I'll glass the 2 pieces on the starboard side tomorrow.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zaiJeXtTWxFuirjLA

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Aug 31st, '20, 21:59

Bertramp,
Earlier in the thread I had a similar discussion and Joe recommended smaller scuppers as well. I am still of the opinion that I would like larger ones to get water out faster but I am going to put smaller ones in to begin with and use the boat for a while in that config. If it warrants larger scuppers I'll go with them, if not they will stay the same.

Cam,
You are probably right with the stern weight... I'm hoping that keeping the 140 gallon fuel tank full at the start of trips plus using the 40 gallon livewell full should keep quite a lot of weight all in the center of the boat. As for lead pigs, there is plenty of space in the old motorwell.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 1st, '20, 09:21

I was trying to think out a strategy to be able to break up the deck glassing into multiple sessions while weaving in the layers so the deck ends up one cohesive unit. I was going to hot glue in some cardboard inside the hatches to act as a dam to not let resin below decks. My goal is to get 2 layers of 1708 and one layer of 1.50z mat on the deck. The first layer of 1708 to go left to right and be 50% on any deck panel, the second layer go front to back and be at least 50% on any one panel.

This is a horrible pic / drawing but I think it makes sense - your thoughts?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fGwzkVpwnd2UXVvT7

1st glassing session - Friday
Blue rectangle - Horizontal 1708 covers ½ of first deck panel and goes up on hull sides and cabin bulkheads
Red rectangle - Horizontal 1708 – covers back ½ of first deck panel and 1st ½ of second deck panel
**Wait 45min to 1h for resin to kick / not be tacky
Orange Rectangles - Vertical 1708 - covers 1st deck panel and ¼ of second panel
**Wait 45min to 1h for resin to kick / not be tacky
Not shown - 1.5oz mat - I would cover all which was covered by the orange vertical layer

2nd glassing session - Saturday morning
Not Shown - Horizontal 1708 – covers back ½ of 4th deck panel
Not Shown - Horizontal 1708 – covers back ½ of 3nd deck panel and 1st ½ of 4th deck panel
Green rectangle - Horizontal 1708 – covers back ½ of 2nd deck panel and 1st ½ of 3rd deck panel
**Wait 45min to 1h for resin to kick / not be tacky
Not shown - Vertical 1708 - 3 sections – go up to where I left off on the second panel

**Wait 45min to 1h for resin to kick / not be tacky
3rd glassing session – early Saturday afternoon
Not shown - 1.5oz mat - go up to where I left off on the second panel

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 1st, '20, 20:14

Tonight I worked on fixing a minor mess up...

When setting up the front deck panel I didn't pay attention to the starting point where the cabin bulkheads would land and started my first panel too far back. Tonight I made a filler piece and bonded it in. As I had mixed up some filler for putting in the piece, I made a bit extra and bonded in the top piece that I fabricated for my livewell (no pic tonight)

fitting it in the doorway
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Xoqdq88Q9rBtFwFg7
Overall view
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fitk8AanFz6ikYPY9

I then worked on tabbing in the deck panels to the sides. The squeezy clamp is holding in a piece of solid fiberglass which I was using to back the strip of glass and help hold water out of the bilge. In the past I had a panel across this area but didn't seal the bottom and kept getting leaf debris in the bilge, I'm hoping to stop this going forward
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RV4LokuGBLKHJ2G48
closeup of the patch
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bZGnvg33BkZGRtQX7

On the other side of the boat where the fuel fill and vent came up from the deck I could not go straight across so I glued down some 2" fiberglass L bracket and will cover the front face later on.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/b95bo3CqDohESus57

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 2nd, '20, 11:08

Its going to rain tonight so I am trying to think of what I can get done inside... so I am thinking about the jig that I will use to assemble my center console doghouse. I've fabricated (3)4x8', 3/4"thick nida core panels last year and they have a single layer of 1708 on each side so the panels are rigid. I was planning on holding the panels in a jig for assembly

Here's some renderings of what I am thinking about - roughly 40" wide and 6'6" tall
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TS11WHeDDX3QStWk7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eKYqpgfgFeRjLEMu9

Jig Idea - I was thinking of using fairly inexpensive materials for my assembly jig, 2 panels of OSB where I would screw 2x3"s on the top and bottom of the outside of each panel to allow the panels to be joined by cross braces. I would then put 2x3"s on the inside to allow the pieces of nida core rest on the edges. The completed OSB panels would be joined by 2x3" cross braces and triangles would be put into the corners to make sure the panels stay parallel to one another.

quick image - not to scale
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZgJaz9fX1Ccpqevq9

Once the jig is completed, I could then cut the nida core panels to fit into the jig, glass the inside corners, cut out and make dash panels (might need another jig to hold them in place) and glass the dash panels together and into the doghouse. Once the overall unit is rigid I could then remove the jig and work on radiusing the exterior edge corners and then putting another layer of glass on the outside.

Your thoughts?? any way to improve

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Sep 2nd, '20, 13:54

I'm not sure I have a complete picture in my mind regarding the jig, but .02:
- Do you need a jig, or could you screw a piece of wood to the inside edge of two pieces to set the position of the third piece? I used a pile of drywall screws when I built my console (wood frame). I would use the screws to assembly and hold pieces while the epoxy set, then removed them. You could remove the wood after glassing the outside of the piece.
- Jig will need to be at least as precise as the final piece. pain to make...I've never seen a straight 2x3.
- Make a interior "plug" instead of an exterior frame. This could literally be a 5 sided box made from plywood that conforms the inside dimensions of your dog house. Clamp or screw the panels to the box and glass. Easier to make a box square than it is to create an external jig.
- Consider making a rolling platform. I made few over the years to aid in moving parts around. Very handy. I used one as the datum for my center console (still didn't come out square, but my design was screwy)

Passed my survey today. Surveyor said it's the only boat he has surveyed that he wants to buy. I think that is good news.

One other quick thought. How are you going to fasten the doghouse to the deck? I don't think that Nida will hold a screw? I glassed in lengths of aluminum angle along the inside base of the console to act as a mounting flange. Drilled through holes through the angle for 1/4 bolts. The console is thru-bolted to the 1" Coosa deck. But I have access below...do you?

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 2nd, '20, 14:37

Cam,

Great news on the Survey. From the pics of the quality of your work there was no doubt that you boat would get a good review.

As for my doghouse - I am most concerned that the 2 side panels are parallel thus the use of something to hold it all in place while the resin cures. The nida panels are flat now and won't twist too easy so all I need is to hold them in the right position. I have a couple sheets of 3/8" osb in the house now, going to go to home depot after work for extra supplies.

As for the mounting flange, I was going to put a 2x4 wrapped in plastic on the inside of the panel, when glassing the outside I was going to have the glass wrap the corner and go over the piece of wood in order to create a flange. From there I would add 3 more layers of 1708 going @10" up the side of the doghouse on the outside, then remove the temporary piece of wood and then 3 more layers of 1708 on the inside. It should turn out to be about 3/8" flange when done. If you look at my pics before I put the deck down, I glued and screwed down a 3/4" piece of marine ply down underneath the deck where the front part of the console would land to act as a backer board and to spread out the load under the deck. That panel is accessible from within the fishbox. I was planning on putting backer boards under the deck in the battery box area to pick up the load from the sides of the doghouse. I was going to run 2" PVC tubes from the battery box and put a 90 degree angle up through the deck to pass all wiring. etc.

Support board under the deck
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3DFy1aKe3PsrBx5u5

edit - added quick drawing of flange - black lines represent outside glass done while there would be a block of wood wrapped in plastic acting as a form. The red lines represent glass on the inside after the form block was removed.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wpxjj5KCXxNSFtFK6

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 3rd, '20, 18:33

Tonight's fun was glassing over the deck filler piece and tying into the bulkheads, then glassing the bulkheads to the sides of the boat. As I did the work I thought about Cam's discussion of angle Iron to connect his console. I purchased some 2" wide angle iron made out of 3/8" fiberglass a while back with the console in mind, In looking at the doorway I came up with another use, a compact door frame. If I cut one of the sides down to the thickness of the nidacore, I will give myself a nice outside flange, seal up the exposed core of the nida and strengthen the edge of the bulkhead - 3x win in my book.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGe4Q4F6nsRKZaRy8

I worked on a dam to not allow water/debris down the hole where the fuel lines go - glass work was a little sloppy but it will clean up quick with a fein tool.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wEStdPpH92LFURVSA

Lastly I glassed over the seams in the back deck panel - when I fabricated the next to the last one, it didn't have any extra support underneath so I glassed a piece of 1.5" pvc pipe cut in 1/2 length wise to the bottom. When I glued the deck panels down, the other 3 had a slight camber to them, the panel with the underside reinforcements didn't bend at all. There ended up a @1/4 -3/8"" height difference between the tops of the panels. I had to put down a couple of passes of fairing compound to make up the difference. While getting ready today, there used to be a bilge pump outlet in the port stern corner, I had beveled the edges inside and out taped the outside. I put 4 layers of 1708 on the inside and will remove the tape, sand and do the same on the outside.

For the curious, the dark circle is where I am going to install a smaller 6" diameter hatch over the fuel tank pickups. That area had the core removed and multiple layers of glass installed on the bottom side for reinforcement.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9Nu5rFydbmCPKiNZ8

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Sep 4th, '20, 07:25

Good idea using the pultruded fiberglass shapes. I didn't discover these until later in the project or i would have used them in place of the aluminum angle on the console. I eventually used many shapes and sizes, sourced from McMaster-Carr.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 5th, '20, 17:31

No pics today - another rough one....

Last night I got the deck sanded down and cleaned up ready for glass. The sanding took so long that I did't get to cutting the fiberglass needed to glass the deck that night so I got going on it this morning. I got the glass cut out and fitted by 10am and proceeded to start glassing. 1 course of 1708 going left to right, then topped with 1 course going front to back. I planned out each of the pieces so that I would not end up on a previous deck seam nor would I end a layer of glass on a seam.

Most of my work has been at night so I didn't realize that there was a fair amount of sun coming in the stern of the boat in the morning. It was kicking the resin to fast and I was already at the minimum hardener to work with vinylester. The resin also was not going through the top of the 1708 very easily either, I had to work it in quite a bit and that also contributed to the long times / resin kicking too soon.

To compensate I cut the pieces of fiberglass into smaller pieces and did 1 qt of resin at a time. I flipped the pieces over and wet out from the mat side and then flipped back over and fitted. The flipping and fitting was rough and the binder strings gave me fits but it worked better.

I ended up getting the 1st layer of L-R down and 1/2 of the front to back. I will need to do some sanding of seams to get any more done.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 7th, '20, 19:17

I came home early today just in time for the sun to go behind the peak of my house putting my boat in the shade at 4:15pm. An hour and a half of sanding seams and a light sand over the rest got me ready to put the 2nd layer of 1708 on the port side. One thing that was curious was the pieces were all too short front to back, I've got gaps between the pieces, somehow the handling of the raw fiberglass caused the panels to shrink. I made sure that all the gaps would not be on a seam so before I put the final layer of 1.5oz mat on the deck I will fill the gaps with thin strips of 1708 so the thickness stays the same.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NeHzuwUmgXPCote38

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 9th, '20, 20:15

Yesterday I sanded the starboard side of the deck in preparation to add the last layer of 1.5oz mat but the heat and humidity got to me and I took too long to get the sanding on that side done and didn't want to get eaten by the mosquitoes glassing after dark.

Good thing I waited as the side took a long time to glass tonight and I didn't finish till 8:15.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vcXaViAYfTVG2MiaA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GjR9pYHd9pUhyYb87

It is supposed to rain tomorrow so I'm not sure what I'll get done, hopefully I can sand the other side and put the mat down on the port side Friday night.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 10th, '20, 17:32

It pouring out, there's no way I'm going under the shrinkwrap in 100% humidity to sand..........

so I decided to play with my doghouse design and started marking out the panel with some chalk lines then covering them with tape.

I think the design is top heavy as I have it right now but am struggling to figure out how to correct it without making the windshield start so high that you have to be 6' tall to drive the boat. I'm tall so it won't bother me but I would like it to be easy for my wife to drive and get my kids going as soon as possible

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5aA8yjWoj3Cb2yFh7

specifics
80" - 6'6" tall
42" wide
The forward lean starts at 48" high
the glass starts at 49" high
The glass ends at 78" high
Flat of helm area ends at 36" high
I will place the helm vertically and have a back mount recessed teleflex helm so the wheel will only be @4" out from the front face. The throttle will be on the flat section mounted towards the back to allow full throttle.

here's some pics of ones I like the look of, both seem to have more base than window. I personally know both of the owners and neither still have their boats so they can't provide measurements.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LZDza76HKm7Z6ZwH8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/m4o4sAkGpGRkQEAr5

Suggestions??? I'm all ears

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Sep 10th, '20, 22:56

Make a card board mock up and play with it till its dimensions satisfy you.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 11th, '20, 09:28

I had a design session chat with the guy who does the most fishing with me and he had a different perspective on how to go about designing the doghouse. His point was to start from the leaning post and figure out distances from there as I can't move the leaning post/livewell too easily because the under deck plumbing.

my 9am meeting got out a couple min early so I spent 5 min and went out and measured the deck. From the outline of the leaning post to the back of the bomar hatch cut out is 16" - it would be OK for space between helm and seat but somewhat crunched if I had the helm stick out from the back of the console (out goes the vertical helm idea previously drawn) Since tall with long arms I think I want a little more than 16" from seat to helm face. If I go with 18" that leaves me with 37" to the front hatch, I think I want to leave at least 3" for hinges on the fishbox hatch as well as the ability to lean the hatch up against the console.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/iegR49bC6U5wiPrT7

So based upon those measurements

1. 34" front to back
2. The steering wheel has to go on top and since the bomar hatch will be under the console
3. I can't have too much of a backward face to the console because I have to leave myself enough height under the console to get in there if needed.

I now have a decent set of parameters to design around, his ideas helped out quite a bit

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Sep 11th, '20, 10:10

If you don't put a surface right on the floor under the console, then the floor hatch is not restricting you, it will open freely under the console even if all of it is not directly under it.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 11th, '20, 12:19

in an effort to knock down my project list - I spent my lunch break today glassing the 40 gallon fiberglass livewell tank I purchased into the leaning post that I fabricated.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qMn4CgSa6FDY1bnx5

The enemy of good enough is better ------ I'm thinking of putting a piece of nidacore on top of the tank and glassing that in to make a storage compartment then making an access hatch in the seat top, that will be for another lunch break.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 11th, '20, 14:42

PMs that do 4hr meetings on Friday afternoons 1-5PM should be taken out and executed (I'm kidding, no really I am kidding)

Here's an updated doghouse drawing done in sketchup
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oGcgPVXijk4pt5zo8

slightly different from the board I drew out before, still somewhat visually top heavy

80" tall x 42" wide
34" front to back at base
48" tall when switching to forward lean
10" width top of dash - will put multiple cup holders and make ways to store loose crap up there
34" tall at helm base - I think the slope is a little to high as drawn because it leaves me 11" inches vertical to place electronics, I may want to increase that to 12" and change the slope of where the helm will go and or decrease the flat portion higher up.
28" under dash to get into the bomar hatch for batteries.

I think I am going to build the outside shell as drawn and fabricate the top with camber, if I can generate enough camber I may cut down the height at the sides 1-2 inches to reduce the visual weight of the top portion.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 11th, '20, 19:43

I got the 2nd side of the boat deck covered with 1.5oz mat

the pic is horrible so don't expect this link to keep working, I'll take a better one tomorrow
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KUXY78MgP2JmTmwy6

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 12th, '20, 19:24

I worked the whole day some stuff went great others not so much.

In the morning I cut out the excess glass which drooped into the hatch holes as well as any excess mat which I left long at a transition point. I put the hatches back in so I wouldn't fall in.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sRTUY4p75GEZUUpAA

From there I worked the transom storage area, I scribed it into the boat and then glassed the outside edges in 2 layers of 1708. In retrospect I probably should have only done 1 layer of 1708 on the bottom as the 2 layers are somewhat bulky and will cause me a round of sanding to make the transition look good.

looking back at storage space
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZcpTJUiwUK9dFXbS6

side joint - you can see where I overlapped the glass on the front face and will need to sand down.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lqf7XgZzANPLDyfL7

afterwords I worked on the Jig for the doghouse. The side panels went together easily screwing 2x3s to the outside edges then I marked off the front face and screwed 2x3s to support the nida core panels I made last year. I cut a bunch of 2x3s the same length and screwed them to the top and bottom, I had a triangle cut out of plywood so I used that to get the ends square along with some 2x3s as corner braces.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1owftn3WJrSctm52A

I started cutting out the nida panels and fitting them to the jig but quickly realized my jig was off. The panels were parallel and square at the back but were not lined up with one another. My yard is not level so that didn't help. I spent quite a bit of time and could not get it right, realizing that my brain wasn't going to solve the problem, I called reinforcements - my wife's Dad is a carpenter. He is going to come by tomorrow and help me straighten out the jig. In order to not waste daylight I finished cutting out the panels and fitting them into the jig. I also cut out the panels for the rest of the dash and a radio box which will go up to the top.

- can see back right corner is off 3/4" on the base which is closest to camera. it was 1.5" off originally and the top brace I was able to bring it in some what.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/H4wtKAqKPURQbo3E6
- I made the top forward facing panel 4" longer than the top of the sides to handle any camber in the top
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ABe9s5QuFAGJahUJ7

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 13th, '20, 19:13

I got a bunch done today I split my time between the doghouse and the roof which will go over it. I bounced back and forth between the 2 glassing one, letting it set up then shifting to the other sub project.

My father in law came by and helped correct my poor carpentry and got the jig to build the doghouse square in short order. My carpentry lesson for the day, if you want it square, the corner to corner measurements have to match. To add on to the help, he went out with my wife and kids for the day so I had no distractions.

I started on the roof and used my layup table and glassed 1 layer of 1708 on a piece of 3/4" nida core, the thought being glass the bottom side flat, let it cure for a couple hours, make a jig to add camber to the top and flip the flat panel over and attach it to the jig and table in a curve and then glass the curve into the piece.

Piece with in the jig after the flip - ended up with 3" of height in the center before spring back
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zrZ4D8gR6jFY5D626

overall view in the jig, after this pic I noticed the edges weren't flat to the layup table, I added quite a few more screws, one every 6" to make sure it had a nice even curve.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/SpeE3qNTYLd8U3id6

After glassing the top side with 1708 - my deck glassing session taught me a lesson on doing nidacore panels faster and better. The 1708 doesn't like to be wet out through the top. In the past I would roll on some resin on the raw nida panel, add the glass and wet the glass out through the top. My improved method is to lay the glass out smooth on the nida, fold back roughly 1/3 of the panel, wet out the glass from the bottom side, wet out the nida and then fold the glass back over the nida and get rid of air bubbles making. Once the first 1/3 was done, I would then fold the glass over the other way and wet out the middle 1/3, rinse and repeat the last 1/3
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1nFiDCfEFCsTrg9FA

In the gaps in time where I was letting the roof glass cure I worked on the doghouse. I filled the joint between the front panels with bonding compound then glassed the horizontal joint before glassing the vertical joints with 2 layers of 1708. I had lunch while the doghouse glass setup then worked on cutting a PVC pipe to make enclosed wire chases to go from the helm portion to a radio box which I will build later. I glassed the PVC pipe pieces in with 1.5oz mat. I finished off for the day glassing in the top piece of the dash (no pic)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hQ1565Uk94ZeyAzb9

Mixed in I also cut and glassed in a piece of finished nida into the leaning post to make a storage area (no pic)

overall, it is really sad that I learnt what I did about glassing a nidacore panel at this point in my project. My new method is much faster and has less defects. I don't need any more panels to be glassed

I could have saved quite a bit of time If I knew this earlier.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 14th, '20, 19:10

Over lunch I started laying out the dash panels and as soon as I could get out of work I finished it off. I screwed chunks of 2x3s to the inside of the console and let the panels rest on the chunks of wood. The waist level rear facing piece needed to have the back glass and core cut out so it would sit flush. I also beveled the very top of the helm area so the glass would go around the corner more easily.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bpYgDqX5xoMi6TbZA

I cut out single layers of 1708 and 1.5oz mat to glass it all in
1708
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rjqXSVFxiqcNYye89
with mat
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3TZxVaxVVUgUYnTBA

after glassing it all together - - I ended up adding extra 1.5oz mat to the areas that weren't covered with 1708 to make the thickness as close as possible
https://photos.app.goo.gl/F8ShDwPooaWgtBYr6