Rookie needs HELP!

Matt29 · Post by **Matt29** » Jun 13th, '07, 18:36

Unfortunately, I figured out the joy of owning my own boat the hard way. I guess it didn't help that my first boat is older than me, but it had to be a Bertram. This is my first time working on this stuff and it's goin alright, I'm just out of time and need some guidance where to get some supplies. The endless google searches are driving me crazy. I could really use the insight and experience of the faithful. Here's a list of items I could use some help with before I can splash and stop paying an additional $15/day for being laid up:

- best way to strip down the bronze struts. Is there an alternative to muratic acid, and if not where so I find that stuff?
- how do I determine what size packing I need for my rudders?
Where is best to get:
- bronze hardware for a ZHC-5 hull zinc (studs, nuts, washer)
- bronze hardware for wire connections to bonding strip (wire connectors, nuts, bolts)
- silver solder
- valves for fuel lines
- recommended sending unit for gas tank (quality w/o breaking bank?)
- small length of copper bonding strip to tie in hull zinc

I apologize if these questions seem mundane, as I this is new to me. So far, I've been able to use the guidance from this website to get the old fuel tank out, repair some bulkhead rot, and replace the rudder shelves. I'm all about working hard and learning as I go. That usually works out pretty well for me, but also probably explains why my boat is torn apart and I've got alot of questions. I know there's a ton of information on this site, but I'm having a tough time sorting through it with the Site Search since the other search fxn has been down. I recall alot of what I've read before about how to, but don't remember where to find the stuff to do it. Right now, I've got the new aluminum tank standing by for install. The work hasn't been that bad, I'm just out of time to get it all done. I've offered up my wallet to the yard, but believe it or not I can't even get them to rip me off for the job. Before I hauled they said, "sure we can give you a hand with that." Now I'm getting the "uh, yeah, we don't really do that kind of work...that'll be $15/day after 5/31...and no outside help." They're busy workin on their pretty racing boats. $18/ft and 2-3 weeks wait just to get the bottom painted.
All that aside, I would like to state that I respect the knowledge and experience of those that contribute to this site. I mean no disrespect by reiterating what may have already been covered at a previous point in time. I've just read so much here over the last year, and am so apprehensive about screwing it up, that I've got it all sorts of stuff mixed up in my head. Again, my sincere thank you for all your help in advance.

Thanks again,
Matt
1975 B28 FBC
Toms River, NJ

Also, if anyone knows a reputable person in the NJ area that can do this type of work, I would REALLY appreciate that info, as well. I hate to admit defeat, but it's almost July, and my work schedule is only getting worse.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jun 13th, '07, 19:40

Matt,
A 4" angle grinder with a 6" disc in 80 grit and a lite touch will take the paint off in no time.

The way to measure packing is undo the nut and measure from the outside of the shaft to the inside of the gland. That distance is your packing size. It will be standard US fractional measurements. IE 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2.

Do not use teflon packing. Use the goretex. Great stuff.

On the parts, I just use my local suppliers. Maybe some of the other guys who use the net to order stuff will chime in.

Unless your buying large qunatities, I've found your local West Marine and such will do you just as good as the net. On small orders shipping will most times out weigh local sales tax.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Jun 13th, '07, 19:59

Matt,

Try these net sources:

Bronze Bolts, etc. - Boltdepot.com
Fuel gauge sending unit - Isspro.com
Copper bonding strip - Consumers marine electronics
Valves - Home Depot, Lowes ( i used 1/2 " ball valves)

I just went through alot of what your'e going through. Hang in there. It will be worth it when it's done.

Vince

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:04

let me know how much copper strap you need i have a big roll of the stuff

Thums Up · Post by **Thums Up** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:06

Hang in there!

First, there are two yards in out area that do a great job on these and other older boats. Carver's in Pt. Pleasant and Holtz in Marmora. I would go to Carver's because it is your way.

I currently have a Ray Hunt Chris Craft at Holtz( same hull as the L&H 33) that I am restoring. I get most of my new parts from Defender.com, Jamestowndistributors.com and Ebay. If you can master ebay you can save a fortune. I have paid 3500 to date in all new parts for my boat that are worth over 9,000. All off ebay.

If you want give me a call 610 306 1970 or email me at thums76@hotmail.com and I can help you out. I live in PA but fish out of Barnegat Light. There are also many yards in our area with good used parts cheap. Also, the most important thing is this site can provide you with info. that is priceless!

Greg

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:08

also i went with wemausa.com for my fuel sender don't have any clue what is the best sender to go with but i really like the quality and price of the want i got hope this helps and good luck

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:38

Matt

Not sure which Marina you are in, but if you are in a bind, go see Brian down at Light House Marina. He runs the yard down there. He used to work at the Marina I am at up in Forked River. He is a quality guy, or at least he used to be. For the work you need done, its something he could easily do. But the issue would be getting the boat to him. Tony Meola

Kingfish · Post by **Kingfish** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:41

As scooter28 said. I installed one 3 yrs ago and no problems.

http://www.wemausa.com/tank_sensors/tan ... nk_Sensors

In the $40 range.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jun 13th, '07, 20:58

I hate to disagree with you Vince but do not use any valves from home supply stores.

The quality and resistance to solvents is not there to be used in a fuel system. Okay for water, but not fuel.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Jun 13th, '07, 21:46

Thanks again Bruce for the heads up! Looks like I'll be changing those. I made quite a few of those kind of mistakes.

What breaks down in the valve Bruce? The plastic?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jun 14th, '07, 05:12

Vince,
Most all those valves are made of a cheap cast brass. Seals and seats are cheap material also. Threads are shallow and the material between the female thread pitch and outside wall is thin and leads to cracking.

The two part body threads have the same problem.

Not safe.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 14th, '07, 07:15

Vince: I have always had good luck with appollo ball valves from Conbraco. West sells them. What do you think of them Bruce?

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 14th, '07, 07:16

Matt: Also try McMaster Carr for fasteners:

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 14th, '07, 07:33

Many of those valves have Buna seals will also deteriorate with fuel.

As Bruce said West Marina is a good choice, they may charge a bit more but you can take your part there and match your part up to what they have and get back to work.

Better yet a GOOD Local Marina store, lots of knowledge in there, sort of like a GOOD local Hardware store. More often then not you can walk in with a a piece of your old rudder packing and they will pull the correct size and show you the correct way to cut the rings and install. Yes a few bucks more for some items, but you can see what you are buying, ask and get answers to the task at hand go back to the boat and finish the task while the info is fresh in your mind, then move onto the next item, all in one day.

Matt29 · Post by **Matt29** » Jun 14th, '07, 12:46

Wow, I can't thank you guys enough. I am overwhelmed and very grateful for all your help. I'm going to stop by the local marine supply place and WM today to look into valves and packing. I think I will go with boltdepot and jamestown for everything bronze and wema for the sending unit. Scooter28 I will shoot you a PM about the copper strip - thank you. Tony, thanks for the head's up. I think I will stop by Lighthouse asap to establish the beginning of a long relationship. Thanks again for everyone's support. This site is unbelievable. I hope to one day get this wallet in the water and attend a rendezvous to meet you guys in person.
Thanks,
Matt

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 14th, '07, 13:02

Appollo's marine valves are SS ball and RPTFE seals, same as therir fuel valves.

http://www.conbraco.com/products/marine ... =70-100-10

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Jun 14th, '07, 14:24

Bruce wrote:

Most all those valves are made of a cheap cast brass.

There is a BIG difference between "Household" brass and marine grade brass. The difference is that most household brass parts are made by a casting process that doesn't fully integrate the zinc with the copper.

When this sort of brass gets into salt water the zinc graduallly disappears by galvanic action and you are left with what looks like a sponge of copper. At that point It has no structural integrity left of course.

Don't buy brass screws or other fasteners at the local hardware store for this very same reason. In fact for anything brass on a boat go to a reputable marine store and ask to be sure it is "Marine grade."

Peter

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 14th, '07, 16:50

"Household" brass and marine grade brass

Sorry, Peter, But I've gotta' take this one on...

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. There's no such thing as "marine brass". By and large, brass is brass and no place on a boat other than maybe interior cabinetry...

When brass, of any alloy, is used in a corrosive environment, such as a brass fitting in a boat's air conditioner raw water line, the zinc in the alloy will do exactly what your shaft zincs do: Dissolve, leaving behind a microscopically porous copper shell. A brass fitting used in the case of an air conditioner would have a life span of a few days before it'd spring a leak. (Seen that first hand a time or two...)

Bronze, which is maybe what you meant by the term "marine brass", won't dissolve because the tin is much higher on the nobility scale than zinc. Most bronze marine fittings are cast or fabricated in "Naval Bronze", (also called red bronze), and has a higher percentage of copper than, for example, sculpture bronze. Usually bronze used in fasteners, (nuts, bolts, & screws), is silicon bronze. Silicon bronze sometimes has a more yellowish color than naval bronze. The silicon in the alloy makes it stronger, harder, and easier to machine.

Br,

Patrick

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jun 14th, '07, 20:34

Matt

If you talk with Brian, tell him Tony Meola with the 31 Bert named Ellie M sends his regards. Tony Meola

Matt29 · Post by **Matt29** » Jun 15th, '07, 04:58

Will do Tony.
Thanks again,
Matt

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Jun 15th, '07, 09:49

Cap't Patrick;

You are partly right, and a little bit wrong. There are various grades of brass available and although their use in marine situations has been mostly supplanted by the wide availability of stainless steel since the '50's, in the past they played a bigger part in boat and yacht construction.

Never to be confused with bronze, which is a superior metal in terms of corrosion resistance, nevertheless brass had its place. (A note here, Manganese Bronze isn't bronze at all, but is a misnamed version of brass.)

From "Metal Corrosion in Boats" by Nigel Warren; International Marine Publishing

[begin quote]

"The most common brasses are:

Cartridge Brass 70/30 Cu/Zn
Muntz Metal 60/40
Admiralty brass 70/30
Naval brass (Tobin Bronze) 60/40
Aluminum brass 76/22
Manganese bronze (high tensile brass) 60/40

CARTRIDGE BRASS ....together with other Alpha brasses -Admiralty and Aluminum brass-they are reasonably resistant to dezincification if inhibited with arsenic. INHIBITED ADMIRALTY BRASS so called because it was developed for the British Navy about 40 yrs ago [ed. Now more than 40 years for certain] for steam turbine condensers to avoid dezincification

ALUMINUM BRASS is perhaps the best of all; the aluminum content gives extra strength, the low zinc content a lower risk of dezincification. But arsenic should ideally be present. The presence of aluminum makes it difficult to solder. It is used in ships for pipework and condensers as it has a high resistance to impingement attack.....and a low risk of dezincification.

......A proprietary brass that is often come across is Tungum ( a trade name of Tumgum Hydraulics Ltd.) This is a low zinc brass with a maximum of 16.7% zinc. It also has a small percentage of aluminum, nickel, and silicon. It is as strong as mild steel, very ductile and resistant to fatigue. It performs well in seawater, dezincification not being a problem.

.......The three 60/40 brasses in the list are poorer metals; NAVAL BRASS should have no tin to reduce the great susceptibility of this MUNTZ type metal to dezincification.

MAGANESE BRONZE is the black sheep of the family and is actually high-zinc brass with the addition of manganese to increase its strength up to that of mild steel. For deck fittings, rigging screws, etc. it is a good material, stronger than gunmetal and relatively inexpensive. It is also commonly used for propeller shafts and propellers, and though this is basically a mistake, cathodic protection can give a reasonable life in seawater.

NICKLE MANGANESE BRONZE is a higher strength version of manganese bronze sometimes used for propellers

Finally one copper-base alloy that ought to be mentioned for completeness is NICKEL SILVER or 'GERMAN SILVER'. It is a low zinc brass with 10-30% of nickel; it has a pleasant silvery-white appearance conferred by the nickel and is used for decorative and corrosion resistant items like nameplates on large motor yachts. There is no silver in the mix."

[end quote]

Now . without getting into laborious quoting I'd also like to paraphrase the pre-amble to this list of brasses by Nigel Warren:

In summary he says that brass should not be used underwater because all brass is subject to dezincification. The greater the zinc content, the faster the process. But it is possible in some cases to galvanically protect brass so it will not dezincify. ( he also advises avoiding stainless steel for underwater uses or in constantly wet areas s well, so take it all for what it is worth.)

Then, beyond the linty of the brasses I'd like to point out that most of what I referred to as "Household brass" or what Bruce called "Cheap brass castings" have another problem:

I am led to understand that oftentimes the zinc is mixed with the copper as powdered metals. This powdered mix is used to make the casting, and therefor the incomplete incorporation of the zinc into the copper results in some coarse grain structure. In this sort of brass the dezincification problem is even worse than if the two metals are thoroughly mixed in the molten state and then cast. Or so I've been told.

So Cap't Patrick, as usual your practical advise is spot on.

In general, these days with good quality stainless easily available, I wouldn't use brass anywhere but in a decorative situation either. Maybe brass screws to mount a brass baraometer or ships clock, that sort of thing. And I sure as heck don't see myself substituting MAGANESE BRONZE for GUNMETAL as deck hardware! But the fact is there are different brasses out there, and they have differeing properties; and frankly I wouldn't be surprised to see some brass popping up here and there in boats due to people's misconceptions about it.

The big point of course, and what got this discussion started, is whether or not it is OK to use a brass valve from Home Depot in a critical marine situation...IT IS NOT. Maybe it is a quality brass suitable for marine use...but maybe it isn't and how do you know by just holding it in your hand?

Peter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 15th, '07, 10:41

Anyone wanna touch the Brass Hardware holding the props on a large percentage of our vessels?

Grade 360 Brass... except for the larger cast ones are Maganese Bronze. Yes they do DeZinca...the zinc gets dissolved but takes years. Still like them better then running SS Nuts up a SS shaft, that can just spell trouble if it should start to gall.

Jus a little wood to the fire.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 15th, '07, 12:41

Peter,

As usual, you've done your homework while I generally shoot from the hip... Good info!

Carl,

I'll stay old school and will never use other than stainless steel nuts for my stainless steel shafts. The trick to keep stainless from galling is to coat the threads with TefGel, and to run the nuts on slowly so you're not building frictional heat between the threads. Only galling I've ever had happen was with smaller diameter fasteners, (less than 3/4"), and only then when trying to spin the nut on too fast without TefGel.

Br,

Patrick

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Jun 15th, '07, 13:37

I saw a guy (Mayhew Barnum) coat the threads with Pepto Bismal so they wouldn't gall.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 15th, '07, 14:22

Capt Pat,
You are not like most...

Many would not take a few seconds to knock the sand and dirt off the nut that just fell on the ground, never mind put a coat of tefgel on. If they start to run the nut up and it gets snug, the first thing they do is grab a wrench and force it up.

We used to offer shafts with SS Hardware, but after a few comebacks cause the nut pretty much welded itself on (some had to pull the rudder to get the shaft out) we went back to Brass or Bronze for the larger guys. We have never had an issue with those. Maybe its the NYC pace, everything is rush rush.

Anyway, I was not debating what is right or better, just tossing wood on the fire...it's been that kind of day here.

I should clarify my "many" and "they" mainly pertain to many of the yard monkey's I have dealt with over the years.

Matt29 · Post by **Matt29** » Jun 18th, '07, 10:10

Scooter28,
Shot you a PM the other day. Sorry for the delay, things got crazy at work.
Thanks,
Matt

John Jackson · Post by **John Jackson** » Jun 19th, '07, 22:36

Matt,

You should really think about going to Carverâ€™s. They will answer all your questions and can order parts for you through their suppliers. They will even explain how to do things and help you as much as you need it. Plus their yard is like a Bertram owner magnet and you will be able to talk to literally dozens of other boat owners who do a lot of their own work. Lots of luck and donâ€™t get discouraged. JJJ

Matt29 · Post by **Matt29** » Jun 20th, '07, 04:53

Thanks, John. I think I am going to stop by there this week after work. That sounds like the kind of place I need to get accquainted with. Some of the suppliers listed earlier were quite helpful with most of the stuff, but there are a few odds and ends left that I need. It is a bit of the "how" that I could still use help on, as well.
Thanks,
Matt

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