Advice from all who have done a restoration

[Brandon33]

Hey everyone, new guy on the Bertram block here looking for a schooling.

I’m gearing up to embark on restoring a 31 and would love to get everyone’s input on things before I even buy a hull.

I really want to do a Bahia mar and reconfigure it with a step up over the motors, centered helm with 2 seats, rear facing jump seats, hardtop, etc. Think big sportfish fly bridge and mezzanine combined in a way. For power id like a pair of Cummins 6bta’s or QSB if the price was right. This is a Great Lakes boat and I want the ability to trailer it if the want arises.

Now with the idea that labor is free, money is not and I can/will figure anything out... would I be better off getting a boat, in really rough shape, that has already been converted to diesels for $20-28k, better off with a stripped hull for $6000 or a gas Bahia mar in pretty ok shape between $20-$40. 99% of the boats I do find are the fly bridge models so I would need to completely strip and reconfigure everything regardless. I personally am leaning to the dirt cheap hull so that I can redo the stringers, integrated fuel tank, have the ability to not worry about damaging something usable, having fresh recon motors etc. However, many people have done restorations and I haven’t done one on a Bertram so I would rather hear other people’s inputs before I make a move. I’m aware of the running gear changes, exhaust size, and fresh air supply changes that are needed if the boat wasn’t already set up for diesels but I’m sure there’s a ton of other things that I’m not realizing need to be changed.

[Carl]

Brandon,

My .02

Buy one with the diesel power you want, that is done right and running well.
The extra money spent here will save you money in the end.
You can still pull, spiff up...but you'll have the lions share done.

If that initial bump up in price is a bit much.
Start pricing motors, shafts, logs, wheels, exhaust, electrical...

[Raybo Marine NY]

buy the one that is in the best condition, worn cracked gelcoat is very time consuming and expensive to repair

everything else you want to do on the boat will remain the same so save yourself some time and money on the cosmetics

[Brandon33]

Appreciate the advice. I am good at glass work, fabricating and painting. While the paint is expensive the other materials are relatively cheap. I would be overhauling the entire boat in terms of fresh paint inside and out, new wiring, systems etc. I suppose the issue is for one that has the motors... I’m not all that confident in the condition of them since the rest of the boat is in pretty bad shape and most have been sitting for years. To get into a boat that has motors I’m confident in just seems too nice to redo and as if I’m throwing money away. I am looking at one this week that is essentially a bare hull but was powered with cats. Hoping it’ll at least have a usable running gear aside from the wheels.

[John Swick]

And of course the golden rule of restoration projects.......figure out how much time it's going to take and how much $$ it's going to cost, then double it (atleast).

Logically, way better off to find one that's already been done. You'll probably only be spending 60 cents on the dollar, and 2yr to 5yr head start on actually using the boat.

But since when does logic have anything to do with it.

Something to be said for the holistic powers of tinker time at the boatyard.

[Priceless]

Bought a 71 Bahia Mar that was immaculate and all original save for Yanmar 315’s that were expertly placed at Grover Marine in L.I. and maintained by a diesel mechanic. Fished it for one summer and then made the changes I wanted to get it right for my needs. Two other friends have similar rides. The diesel is very important if you want to go any distance to fish, also if you don’t want to go broke paying for gas. Better to have someone else foot the bill for expensive reliable economical power. Much like cars its better to buy the restored product rather than do it in less you really want to and have the ability.

[Mark]

Wait....somebody has to restore whatever remaining 31s that need some TLC. The more 31s you see on the water, the better. Besides, that will make more options available for folks not quite as handy or too old to get started from scratch. Like me! LOL

Mark

[Mark]

Brandon,

Forgot to say good luck whichever your direction. Search this site or ask the experts (not me) on this site before you do anything. They have most likely done it and documented how. I've been reading just in case and the amount of quality info is amazing.

Mark

[Stephan]

I believe very much in using the boat for a season before starting a restoration. For me a restoration is not just curing what's wrong with the boat but also personalizing it. Otherwise it is totally bat s**t crazy to spend the time, effort and money to make it the same as something you could acquire right now for less $$$.
I may be wrong - I frequently am.
Good Luck-
Stephan

[Rickysa]

I did both...bought a '72 gas boat that had sat for a good while (cheap, but floating) with the idea of stripping everything out, repower w/ diesel, new electrical system, the works. Did so and took an ugly bath on it when I had to move up to something bigger (shouldn't have...long story).

When I got back in the hunt, I was looking for one that had been repowered already (let someone else take that bullet), essentially spending the $$ on the hull and the iron (per UV "the money is in the iron"). Found one that was/is rough as a cob with regard to cosmetics/electrical/etc but repowered w/ approx. 450 hrs on the engines.

It's your project...one that isn't taken on to save money (it is a boat after all ), but in my opinion while it seems like a good idea to buy a hull for cheap and dig in...no way would I go that route again.

Best of luck whatever you choose to do!!!!

[John F.]

You’ll save money if you buy a boat that’s already been restored if you find a restored boat that works for you. You’ll also save money if you buy a boat that has the motors you want but needs restoration. If you want Cummins, then find a B31 that needs work but has a Cummins repower done right. Buying a hull for cheap and just building will be pricey and take a lot of time. You said you wanted a Bahia, but if you’re open to a sport fish, I’d give Vince’s boat listed here a long look. It’s got the right motors, a lot of other stuff that are typically done in restos that are pricey to buy and take time to build/install. My 2 cents. No matter what you decide, as long as it’s a B31 you’ll have a great boat when you’re done.

[David Davidson]

Brandon,
I recently totally stripped out a B31 with big, old and heavy Cummins V504s. They ran great, sounded awesome but were not what I wanted (and hard to find spares for). I gutted the entire boat, which was in original but great condition, and rebuilt it how I wanted.
I now have a brand new, modern, well equipped B31 totally personalised to me, for a fraction of the price of, say, a new B35. However it was still a lot of money, and even more blood, sweat and tears!!!

Glad I did it? Yes, now it’s done.
Would I do it again? Never!!

Hope it helps
David

[Brandon33]

I’ve been reading up on the amount of work it requires to repower with diesels and do them right so I’ll have to agree it would be a cheaper route to get one already repowered. I guess I’m more so worried the boats that are repowered, need work and are priced at what I think is fair... I don’t really trust that the motors won’t need a ton of $$$ thrown at them as well as the work that was done, was done to my standards. I’m kind of a snob about the way things are done and this will be most likely my life time boat. I’m also a fresh water boater so when I see a motor that looks like it’s been sitting out back for a few years and has rust, corrosion and paint missing it makes me concerned. Also I watched my dad replace way too many small parts on a generator that came from salt water so that worries me as well. I am open to a sport fish but it feels wrong taking a boat that’s in operating condition and hacking it apart to make it into a different model. I currently have a Scarab center console that I rebuilt, new deck, fabricated a new console with head inside, new stringers, paint, etc. I think it made me addicted to cutting into a boat and making it your own. Definitely going to do some more digging for one already repowered so we shall see what happens. I do have some questions that I hope everyone could shed some light on for me. Appreciate all the input, this is already my favorite forum and I just got here.

Should I be concerned about a pair of diesels that have been sitting for a few years and have roughly 1000-2000 hours?
Would a Bertram benefit from the weight savings using composite cores and honeycomb interior panels?
Are stringer and bulkhead rot/delamination issues normal in a neglected Bertram?
Is it possible/worth the effort to clean an original fuel tank thats had diesel in it for years?
Would you say a pair of Cummins take outs with 1000-2000 hours is worth the discount from recons?
What transmissions can accept trolling valves?

[Carl]

I believe very much in using the boat for a season before starting a restoration. For me a restoration is not just curing what's wrong with the boat but also personalizing it. Otherwise it is totally bat s**t crazy to spend the time, effort and money to make it the same as something you could acquire right now for less $$$.
I may be wrong - I frequently am.
Good Luck-
Stephan

Great post...

I’ve been reading up on the amount of work it requires to repower with diesels and do them right so I’ll have to agree it would be a cheaper route to get one already repowered. I guess I’m more so worried the boats that are repowered, need work and are priced at what I think is fair... I don’t really trust that the motors won’t need a ton of $$$ thrown at them as well as the work that was done, was done to my standards. I’m kind of a snob about the way things are done and this will be most likely my life time boat. I’m also a fresh water boater so when I see a motor that looks like it’s been sitting out back for a few years and has rust, corrosion and paint missing it makes me concerned. Also I watched my dad replace way too many small parts on a generator that came from salt water so that worries me as well. I am open to a sport fish but it feels wrong taking a boat that’s in operating condition and hacking it apart to make it into a different model. I currently have a Scarab center console that I rebuilt, new deck, fabricated a new console with head inside, new stringers, paint, etc. I think it made me addicted to cutting into a boat and making it your own. Definitely going to do some more digging for one already repowered so we shall see what happens. I do have some questions that I hope everyone could shed some light on for me.

Learn, ask and look at a bunch of boats and you'll find out quickly which ones are done to snob standards and which were cobbed together. Its up to you to figure out what is best for you.
I answered look for motors and running gear...a good hull goes without saying.
Next person gives a 180 degree answer based on their experience. Me...I can sand and prep for paint so that being the lions share of the cost I can make that happen. New motors and running gear plus all the assorted to me is a big chunk of change. I can sort of get around that by sorta being in the business...but its still a chunk of change for the STUFF, PLUS alot of work on top.
I will however say both answers are correct.

Appreciate all the input, this is already my favorite forum and I just got here.

Sounds like your a smart fellow and a good fit here, welcome aboard!

Should I be concerned about a pair of diesels that have been sitting for a few years and have roughly 1000-2000 hours?
Would a Bertram benefit from the weight savings using composite cores and honeycomb interior panels?
Are stringer and bulkhead rot/delamination issues normal in a neglected Bertram?
Is it possible/worth the effort to clean an original fuel tank thats had diesel in it for years?
Would you say a pair of Cummins take outs with 1000-2000 hours is worth the discount from recons?
What transmissions can accept trolling valves?

1000-2000 hours can be nothing on some diesels, I am now converting to Cummins 6bt's with aprox 1500 hrs...should be just about broken in. If well maintained and run moderately they should run for many many years. I'll let other chime in on other selections and models. But will add in my view, the more hp you extract from a standard base motor, the shorter its lifespan...but some want to go fast and thats fine...pockets just need to be deeper then mine. If they have been sitting for a few years...should not be a problem if they were prepped to sit...fresh fluids, kept dry, fuel stabilizers etc.

Composites and honeycomb benefits...some want the boat lighter, others heavier...to a point of stowing a ton of lead in the bilge.

Stringer and bulkhead rot-
-Stringers do have wood inside, but my understanding is it was only used as a form for the fiberglass.
-Bulkheads do rot as do the wooden uprights holding up the deck...and the deck has wood inside that rots if water gets in.
Bulkheads are not structural as in other boats..it just kinda holds the stuff inside together and in place. rear engine bulkhead went on mine...not a big job replacing. Deck uprights I replaced with fiberglass U channel. Fiberglass deck...opened up the back, pulled rotted wood, epoxied in new then seal the back on again.

Bahia MAr you don;t need to worry about curved window crazing and aluminum frames pitting...but if you change your mind on model, its something to keep in mind.

Rudder decks where made of wood...if they have not been replaced, they will have to be. Many of us went composite or in my case Aluminum.
Struts- - the original backing pad was inadequate being a piece of small plywood bondo-ed down. A good hit can send the strut through the bottom. If not already done...its an easy project with detailed instructions from Capt Patrick in the build section of the old board. Consider going through that section..lots of good upgrades and tricks that have been tried and proven to work.

Cleaning fuel tank- sure, cut some access ports, get in and clean, seal tank and your good. Or remove and replace.
If me...unless you have a problem...don't fix it.

Are 1-2000 hrs Cummins worth the savings over new recons? That I can answer in a few weeks...I do hope so.

Trolling valves I know fit ZF 220 and 63A's and I'm sure a few others.


As to what model to pick...thats up to you and you alone. Several models on this sight and everyone can claim theirs is the best with a ton of reason to back it up. Everyone of them valid reasons. As to your cutting up a sport fish and turning into a Bahia MAr...I'd say to save your money till your boat shows up as a Bahia Mar...only because of the amount of work needed.

But whatever you decide to do that gives you a big smile when done...is the right choice.

[EarleyBird]

I’ve own a 1973 31 Fly Bridge boat for 33 years, fourth set of motors. 270hp Cummins now, 4,500 hrs. Never a hiccup. If I haven’t sunk it, think it’s pretty hard to do. Have watched several restorations, my brother-in- law has one and a great friend did one (5years) If your looking for a pretty one relatively inexpensive call South Jersey Yacht Sales ask for Drew, tell him EarleyBird wrote this to you. Believe boat is visible on there web-site. Boat name is Kanoa, she has 4 cylinder Cummins. All done over. Trailerable. I even know the owner. Good Luck...Best boat ever built!

[Bruce]

Ask yourself these questions, I asked them to most all the refits I did.

1. Are you married, Yes-does your wife know you are doing this? If so, where does her opinion come into play? There will be a up charge to deal with that, No-congratulations, let me explain all the options you may want.

Really look into something thats been done, at least wiring and power wise. get it surveyed.

[Brandon33]

Ask yourself these questions, I asked them to most all the refits I did.

1. Are you married, Yes-does your wife know you are doing this? If so, where does her opinion come into play? There will be a up charge to deal with that, No-congratulations, let me explain all the options you may want.

Really look into something thats been done, at least wiring and power wise. get it surveyed.

This is a valid point, probably the most valid. Fortunately I’m one of the lucky ones and she’s just as excited as I am. Minus the part where I work till midnight on the boat after work. Our center console, while nice, is horrible to fish from and has zero comfort factor. It was cool to do 60mph for half a season but it wore off fast. It really wore off when we got stuck in a storm with no windshield. Wind was blowing about 30 mph, I’m running 30 mph into steady 3’s and she’s just curled up in a ball trying to not get hit with the rain. Brought back memories when I had a motorcycle. Nothing like needles on the face. Lol I’m pretty set now getting one with the repower already done. I’ve found a couple in pretty rough shape with 6bt 300’s and 1000 to 1500 hours for around $28. That’s less than the cost of used motors so it’s a no brainer. Even if I do have to throw money at the motors I’ll still be ahead I think. Only downside would be buying them sight unseen and paying to have them brought to Michigan.

[Pete Fallon]

Brandon 33,
You have a wealth of knowledge to listen to on this board, listen to the guys that have done complete restorations and then double what you think it will cost to do the restorations you want to do. As a former 31 Express owner(1961) for 37 years and a Marine Surveyor for 18 years I have seen the good the bad and the really ugly of restorations. You asked about composite bulkheads, that is a yes if you know how to do fiberglass work correctly, the less areas to rot the better. If you can find a low hour diesel conversion with at least 300 HP, you are coming out of a go fast boat you will be disappointed with anything less thaN the 300 /315 HP range. The 4 cylinder Yanmars push a 31 Express at 28 MPH WOT cruise in the low 20's.The 315 Yanmars push a 31 FBC at 33 no matter how many people are onboard, Buddy Boy sea trial with 9 on board with no tricked out running gear like Bob Lico's 31 FBC is a good example ask Bruce or Tom Drake. My 31 express did 41.8 MPH on the GPS WOT she had 1997 454 CID 7.4 L throttle bodied fuel injected Mercruisers with Hurth 8 degree down angle trannies and low profile running gear. I used to charter the 31 back in the late 70's to the mid 80's and people were always amazed about the room in the cockpit, the smoothness of the ride and the speed at cruise 28 MPH at 3000RPM's. The express has a full stand up enclosed head and a dinette with the V berth set up but you sit on top of the engine boxes, you can duck behind the large opening windscreen and your not stuck alone on the flybridge by yourself, no ladder to climb and only one step away from the cockpit action. See Ed Nurray;s old Finest Kind, Carl's Express, The Boat or Stanton Terranova's restored 31 for sale on Yacht World. Anyway keep looking, this is the best time to buy a boat, the end of the season with up coming winter storage bills and most of the bugs worked out over the summer. After owning a 31 for 37 years I really miss having a boat but knee replacements (4)_ and 18 additional knee problems have prevented me from getting back on the water. I also was a builder of custom built 31' @ 34' center consoles back in the late 90's and a great fan of composite materials, vacuum bagging and deep V hull designs if done the right way. if you want to talk about Bertram's large or small call me 561 310 7179 or email fal4artbts@aol.com
Pete Fallon

[Bruce]

Pete,
We used the 6LY 350hp engines on Buddy Boy. Jim was concerned on excessive noise of the new 6LP's.
I loved those engines and out of all the refits I did in 29 years, that would be the one I would keep.

[Carl]

[quote="Bruce"
Really look into something thats been done, at least wiring and power wise. get it surveyed.[/quote]

..... for around $28.

That’s less than the cost of used motors so it’s a no brainer.

BINGO!

Even if I do have to throw money at the motors I’ll still be ahead I think. Only downside would be buying them sight unseen and paying to have them brought to Michigan.

No no no... Sea Trial, Survey Engine survey at the least.

Unless of course you want to buy with intention of rebuilding the motors...but from questions asked, you may be in similar boat to me in that a motor rebuild is a bit outside your comfort zone. Price a diesel rebuild, bringing to a Qualified Re-builder that will do the job right is not chicken feed money.

Throwing some money to bring a motor up to par is one thing...but something serious requiring more is a new game.


Alot of these boats around...sit back, learn, narrow your choices, see if you can sea trial a few in different configurations.

...wait for the right one to come along.

[John F.]

If I were doing it again, I'd find the best B31 for the money with the diesels I want. If I were more limited on funds (and I always am), I'd get one of the B31s you found with Cummins in the high $20s. Make sure the install was done right. Get the motors surveyed by someone who really knows what they're doing. Check the structural stuff. Then check to see if some of the pricey add-ons that everybody seems to do have been done, like f'glass or some other replacement deck, f'glassed in windshield (if you want to go that way), etc. The look around to see what's been replaced that you'll be able to reuse in your restoration. Things like a new bow chock, new triangle hawse pipe things in the stern, new controls, new steering, new upholstery in the interior, etc. That stuff adds up quick. And if you're on a real budget (like me) look to see if the boat has stuff you don't want that has value that'll be easy to sell. I sold about $3K worth of stuff off of Crows Nest when I redid (generous use of the term "redid") her, like the fighting chair, busted half tower, etc. Folks thought they got a great deal, and I got some cash to use to buy the next thing I thought she needed. And don't underestimate the cost of little stuff and blow it off when considering what boat to buy. For example, I replaced the oil lines that run from the motors to the remote oil filters this past winter. 3 lines per side. Cost of the lines was about $400 per side. Just for oil lines.

Although a lot of guys here have done it, I'd try to buy a running boat in whatever shape, so that I could enjoy her during the boating season and do the work in the winter (Michigan? That's a long winter). My 2 cents. Good luck

[Carl]

...and a boat with the right motors all installed up to par means the exhaust was done...elbows, hose, surge tubes, mufflers, transom flange, stuffing box, shaft log, couplers, struts, cutlass bearings and wheels, motor mounts, stringer work. Right motors have to have the right batteries, boxs, shelves, cables, switches, connections,terminals, gauges, panels and harnesses.

even if not 100% what you want...its there and can be used till you change it out with your ultimate choice.

If not, price that stuff, it adds up stupid crazy fast...

[Brandon33]

...and a boat with the right motors all installed up to par means the exhaust was done...elbows, hose, surge tubes, mufflers, transom flange, stuffing box, shaft log, couplers, struts, cutlass bearings and wheels, motor mounts, stringer work. Right motors have to have the right batteries, boxs, shelves, cables, switches, connections,terminals, gauges, panels and harnesses.

even if not 100% what you want...its there and can be used till you change it out with your ultimate choice.

If not, price that stuff, it adds up stupid crazy fast...

Without a doubt. From my first post to this one I’ve learned enough to know my first thought of getting a bare hull and putting diesels in it was pretty insane unless I have deep pockets and 5 years to waste. I’d be better off just financing a newish 35. I’m actually giving Vince’s boat a hard look. It’s not the model I want and more than I want to spend right away until I sell my Scarab but everything is already done that these boats seem to need fixed plus has the exact motors I want. Would really leave me just with cosmetics, fab work and glass work to convert it into what I want. All of which I think I could get close to done or at least operational in 1 winter. Gotta say, I sure am glad I found this place so you guys could set me strait. Otherwise I’d be $5000 into a $150k project that I thought would be $50k and itchy as can be.