I'm tossed between keeping old shaft log or going fiberglass

[Carl]

Subject lines says it all.

Keep the old Bronze shaft logs...a little snug going 1-1/4 to 1-1/2... but I can get to work. With lower motor I need to move forward so it's glass the tail end or as mechanic thinks...braze a piece to aft end of log to seal. I'd also need to make the outer hull bronze backing strips as mine are about done after 50+ years in salt water.

Or do I just buy some fiberglass tube and glass in...I'd definitely do that IF I were going dripless as the tube cuts down on shaft rotational drag...but I am not a fan of dripless packing. Not a cost issue...just another thing to check and look after. So cutting shaft log flush to hull gives no performance benefit.


So I'm tossed, do I go the route of playing a little glassing in shaft logs...
Or spend a bit more keeping original Bronze logs.

Maybe I'm missing an advantage or disadvantage with each...

[Snipe]

Carl I have a set of original shaft logs and backing strips. I also have the 5 in bronze angled exhaust outlets if you didn’t get some yet. I am not to far from you.

[Pete Fallon]

Carl,
Your so far into the rebuild I would go with the fiberglass shaft logs with PSSI dripless shaft seals. You won't have to worry about any brazing problems and the dripless seals are just about bullet proof, use clear tubing on the shaft seal cooling lines so you can see if it's getting blocked with scale. New bronze shaft logs are going to cost about the same as FRP logs and dripless seals, make sure you put the spare seal on the shaft before you button everything up.
I was always checking my old packing glands and the rubber hose over the shaft log, had 2 of them go bad in 35 years of owning my express, with new FRP logs and dripless seals you only have to worry about the cooling line falling off or getting clogged. Good luck which ever way you go.
Still on crutches after 2-1/2 months waiting for the 2 ligaments and tendon to heal, constantly icing the knee 6 to 7 times a day and staying off the leg as much as I can, I see the doctor on Friday.

P.S. I have 4 hatch covers for the old style engine boxes they are re-cored with divinacell, RJ compound and Imroned in oyster white with non skid, I gave the hinges to Kevin in Marathon they are yours for free if you want them.
Pete Fallon
561-310-7179 cell

[bob lico]

i think pete and i are "birds of a feather" EXACTLY what pete said. o maintenance 15 years and largest single performace modification to hull . at least about 1/2 knot at speeds over 25 knots.whats not to like!!!!!!!

[Carl]

PYI...best and simplest on the market in my opinion. We sold'em for years when active in that business.

I have also had to deal with a good amount of problems from them too.

90% was due to lack of water flow do to clogged lines...but none the less I like simpler then simple and can't get much simpler then squeezing a rope around a shaft to seal.

1/2 knot faster at 25 knots, sure that's nice...but with 210 hp I'll see 25 knots at WOT...going down a wave....with the wind at my back.
Yes, I understand 1/4 kt here, 1/8 kt there...adds up.

Have packing glands already...


Dripless is/was not the way I wanted to go.
I'll table it till I give my final fit of strut this week.
When its in I can really see up close how bronze log will fit...till now I just toss over, saw space around and said yeah, maybe it will work.

If I glassed in tubes...I'd feel better having tube protrude so I can see plenty of glass all around, instead of just on the inside. That feeling may overtake my dislike of dripless.

Thanks for input... I have settled in on a "maybe" for each of the 3 options.

started with 2...


LOL...its better to figure it out before with all options then later after I'm done. If I ever get done...

[bob lico]

ok carl take out "the book" from the top ; if you have no waterflow to the PYI your FU-ked because the raw salt water pump hits the gearcooler first (were the take offs for the pyi come from" if you have no water to dripless the boat will overheat in less than two minutes!!!!!!

[bob lico]

[bob lico]

[Tony Meola]

Carl

I know a lot of the guys use the pre record. I changed over to Tides seals. From what I could tell they are a big improvement over phi.

There is alkdo a cross over line do if a line clogs both sides still get water. Plus they come with an extra set of seals that ride in a carrier on the shaft. You can change them onced without pulling the boat. Actually the Diesel shop I deal with suggested installing an extra set of seals so that i woiild have two on each shaft.

I believe there is a spot off the water pump you can draw the water from. Mine comes off the forward outlet on the trans cooler.

I not a fan of thdd bellows on the PSS sessls. Friends boats almost suink when one cracked on him.

[Carl]

Carl

I know a lot of the guys use the pre record. I changed over to Tides seals. From what I could tell they are a big improvement over phi.

There is alkdo a cross over line do if a line clogs both sides still get water. Plus they come with an extra set of seals that ride in a carrier on the shaft. You can change them onced without pulling the boat. Actually the Diesel shop I deal with suggested installing an extra set of seals so that i woiild have two on each shaft.

I believe there is a spot off the water pump you can draw the water from. Mine comes off the forward outlet on the trans cooler.

I not a fan of thdd bellows on the PSS sessls. Friends boats almost suink when one cracked on him.

Lip seals...any lenght adjustment to compensate for shaft wear?
As to pulling the boat...they can all be changed in the water, if your feeling lucky. Rag in log to change bellow, clamp rag around inside of shaft to change face rings.
Then again a haul is $15bucks so not a problem...that is if problem comes up around home port.

My issue is with the flax packing glands I have never had a problem, dads never had a problem...I don't think I know anyone that really had an issue other then too tight and wearing the shaft...but change hose length and relocate...or too loose and needing to tighten or add a ring or repack fresh.

Some water in the bilge...some have a hard time with that.
For me "eh", its a boat.

Then comes dripless seals.
Graphite packing wears the shaft for a dryer bilge.

Duramax has ceramic seal...heard of a few that cracked, mostly after hitting something. They allow alot of water to come in.
It was an expensive overly engineered piece of crap to replace simplicity.

PYI- Great design, simple. BUT some bellow issues, epsecially when not changed every couple years...many do not read the paperwork, but they want them changed pretty often...at least alot more often then people do. Usual response of mechanic looking at seal dripping is to tighten the bellows more.

But the main problem I have seen is lack of water flow. I have to check where the factory tapped into, but last year my buddies Yanmar zinc fell off and found it way into the cooling line.
I thought it was the trans cooler...but maybe not.

The other is snapped fittings, no water to gland with a steady stream of water into the bilge.

Yes I know lots of people use' em...we sold a ton of them before the new boats all came with them and many have no problems.
I hear about the ones that did, I got to fix and replace parts on the ones that did...


I have a tough time wrapping my head around "this is a better mousetrap".

Squeeze waxed rope around a shaft to seal water from coming in...stupid simple and dependable.

[Snipe]

The PSS now has an upgraded bellows that is silicone and lasts longer than the original. If you go conventional style just run them in like Tony from seaboard does cant go wrong either way it’s personal preference.

[Tony Meola]

Carl

I only changed over because I was eating up the packing. I could not get keep the packing in Moore then season before it was shot. Ran hit even with water leaking st a steady rate.

After one run slwsstts had to adjusts them. Got tired of chasing it down all the time.

[Carl]

Carl

I only changed over because I was eating up the packing. I could not get keep the packing in Moore then season before it was shot. Ran hit even with water leaking st a steady rate.

After one run slwsstts had to adjusts them. Got tired of chasing it down all the time.

Glad you mentioned...took a close look this morning.

Port box has a big lump of old packing corroded/mashed/stuck in a spot under first ring of packing. When rings of packing were added they did not sit square and true to the bore. So now when the adjustable packing gland goes on, its not evenly pushing all around and gland needs to be overtightened to seal, so runs hot..if you loosen it leaks.

https://imgur.com/QOXAMer




Starboard side- the shaft was rubbing on the packing gland...wore 3/32" out of round on the adjustable part and a bit over an 1/8" on the fixed portion. I'm not sure why, the rubber tube usually has enough flex to center. Anyway, if shaft is up against the wall of the gland its gonna run hot and sealing gonna be an issue.


https://imgur.com/5OUpdSk


https://imgur.com/a/QcUyZmA



Packing was staggered as it should be, although I'm a fan of diagonal overlapping cuts to square. Probably didn't make a difference.

The graphite packing was hard as a rock...I have not seen enough of it to know if that's normal or not...but the ol flax always seemed to have some give and flex...except when real old or run real hot cooking the wax.


A quick touch in the lathe and they will be as good as new.

Unless I go dripless, I kinds like the lip seal ones you have.
Any adjustment on the hose to account for shaft wear?

[bob lico]

BTW in order to change shaft angle the entire shaft log is removed and you just keep a 28" slot in bottom of boat. never allow a marine mechanic on board the boat is rule number one. the shaft coupling (after being macines dead square ) is conected to shaft and sliding glass tube shaft log goes on shaft then entire coupling,shaftlog,strut goes in one piece make adjustments with struct and last thing you do is glass in shaft log EXACTLY dead center of shaft using pvc wedges to hold there while glassing in.

[Carl]

Oops...I broke rule number one.

But its ok, he was there mostly for the electrical.

He was not too happy when I started cutting down the stringers, less happy when I told him I wasn't buying struts that fit and would be making them. I think he was least happy when I mocked up the setup with the old shaft...but the hull was in the way...so I grabbed my sawzall and started cutting the hull opening larger. No no no...that was all I heard over the sound of the saw. How you gonna close that, holes too big... Nope, motors coming down more and that hole gets even bigger. He was not a happy camper that day.

Anyway, yes, larger hole in bottom of boat.

I had my tacked up strut in place with a dummy aluminum shaft and coupling.

I made up plastic spacers that fit in strut bore with ID snug to shaft giving me perfect alignment, tossed prop on taper for clearance and check length, make sure shaft slid beside rudder. Then we moved motor into alignment. From there I dropped strut so I could fully weld...just gotta bore the barrel to final size now that the welding is done, then try the fit again. If good, engines and mounts get bolted and I can see how old log fits. Starting to slide over to the dark side...dripless. I have a feeling it will just be easier to glass in a new log then try to get the old to fit and seal. Old one will stil need glass work. And if glassing I might as well glass in tubes....and get some extra benefit of leaving tube a bit longer...but can't go traditional if I do that.

The Lasdrop dripless Tony mentioned...I kinda like the extra simplicity of that one. A Lip seal can wears shaft...but so does flax packing...but adjustment of tube length and I get to start another wear spot. For me to wear A22 in two spots with a lip seal...I'll never put that many hours on it. No bellow issue, no hub walking up the shaft. Still the cooling issue...but
I still have time to weigh that option.

To your point, yes, shaft and strut in place, center tube with shims and glass in place.
Yes, I read Capt Pats building tips about a hundred times in the past few months. Went over yours and many other tips and tricks.

Thanks

[Tony Meola]

Carl

Believe igg or not but i did not have any shaft wear.

[Tony Meola]

Carl

Believe igg or not but i did not have any shaft wear. So are we saying that the logs are not centered? That would be an issue with dripless also.

[Carl]

Your prop shaft is a good deal harder and tougher then the bronze stuffing box, yes I can believe little if any wear was seen on the shaft.

Upping the shaft size from 2" to 2-1/4" on a Buddy Davis we saw a small mark on the old shaft were one should not be. Owner did not want to hear about it, in a pissy way he said "stay on track...just do the shafts and bearings". Yeah, that's not us... went to the boat after work to find the shaft log was almost completely worn away. Long story short (yeah I know "too late") rear motor mount was loose, as the motor dropped the shaft cut the bronze shaft log...had to be almost 1/4"...with only a small mark on the shaft.

Are your logs centered...I can't answer that, but I'd take a look next time boats out of the water.
Look and see if centered or way off.
Usually the log is in a fixed position. The engine height and strut dictate where the shaft sits in the log.

It is the Port side that has the wear. I am assuming the adjustment screws were placed horizontal making the wear either on the top or bottom.

Could be the hose was too short or rigid and didn't flex enough to allow gland to center, or gland wasn't sitting square to shaft.

If you have been running for awhile without a problem, don't hear shaft knocking on hull your probably good...just give a look as it would answer why that one didn't seal.

The starboard, the issue was the old packing in the bottom creating a high spot on the rings of packing.

[Kevin]

Carl,
I'm with Pete and Bob on this one.
I read the instructions about 6 months ago for the dripless. It said change this and that after so many years. Mine have done about three times there life expectancy. Borrowed time, I know.
I saw the hinges that Pete gave me when I was packing up all my stuff this summer for the move. I don't think I am far from your dad but have not spoke with him for a couple months. If you need the hinges let me know. They are stout.

[Carl]

Kevin- - For me, I guess I have just seen the problems from a bunch of people, so it just seems like more then my fair share of fails. Kinda like Bob Lico and crapped out outboards.

This post was intention was to help me decide on keeping the old Bronze shaft log or a glassing one in. Both cases I was set on going with the old tried and true flax packing glands...but really rethinking that.
I will set the Strut in place tomorrow morning, then its onto the log and exhaust...as of now, if I'm using the bronze log, I'll go old style...if glassing a new log in...I think it will be dripless.

No, I don't need the hinges, hold on to them for when you need'em
The Steyr guys dad gave you the info for, were they able to help you out?

[Kevin]

Yes they are a great contact. When I told him what I needed, he new exactly what I was talking about. Even made some recommendations. Between that and the new mixing elbows everything is perfect. Burned maybe half a tank of diesel this summer so busy with move. At least it will be perfect when I put it on stands this Monday.

[Carl]

Putting on stands, moving...what did I miss??

Burning half a tank is still better then where I am...trying to get it all back together to start burning fuel. But some things do take priority and boats not as high on the list as others.

[Kevin]

Vacation rentals are out of control. Always new crowd of drunks on vacation being loud. Like being surrounded by night clubs when you have to sleep and go to work in morning. Family based neighborhoods disappearing. Tired of driving through South Florida to see friends and family. Getting raped by wind insurance company. The last few times I went on boat to get dinner I got skunked. Seem to be less fish but maybe my skills are degrading. The novelty just wore off I guess. I have a Harbor Freight 15 minutes from me now. What else could I ask for!

[Tony Meola]

Carl

Shafts don't knock on the hull. They run straight and true. No wobble. Strange I never heard any noise on that port side.

[Pete Fallon]

Kevin,
Where did you move to? I'm still in Mass but hope to return to Stuart area next winter, as soon as knee lets me move.
Pete Fallon

[Carl]

Carl

Shafts don't knock on the hull. They run straight and true. No wobble. Strange I never heard any noise on that port side.

Tony - I'm sure you would have heard knocking, squeal or grinding sounds...but it may have been the packing slowly wearing unevenly pushing shaft over slowly into the bronze housing...a light , dull rubbing might be tough to hear over the normal sounds of a boat running...especially diesel. The why it wore on one side is all guesses for me...
Taking a peak to see how shaft is sitting within the log when you pull the boat at the end of the season might shed some light on the why. But if running good now, I'd say problem is behind you and not be concerned.

[Carl]

The novelty just wore off I guess. I have a Harbor Freight 15 minutes from me now. What else could I ask for!

Lol...Harbor Freight does have a place. Far from commercial quality stuff...but sometimes it's all you need.


The novelty wore off...


Life can make that happen and when it does, move on.

[Kevin]

We moved up to Palm City. I should have done it a long time ago!

[DanielM]

Sad to hear you’ve moved out. Sorry I didn’t get over to meet you last Christmas when we were down. We’ve only be over there a couple times since then. I guess for all the good things Marathon has to offer there is a lot of downside as well, the vacation rentals for sure. Hope you enjoy Palm City.