46mph Bertram 31 !

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Mar 31st, '19, 12:17

Looks like a beautiful boat.

I really like the stair to the bridge and the layout without the engine boxes.

I know OB's are not popular here but you had to admit it does have advantages.

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boats-sale ... st12373771

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... eX9aeY2KQM

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 31st, '19, 21:32

It has been done before. Issue I have with Outboards is that they get in the way when fishing.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 1st, '19, 09:26

I'm a heathen for carving up my B25, but I/Os are just too much to deal with. I don't know that I could do that to a 31

In the pics there is one of the transom and looks like a raised pad was added to bolt the cleats to the hull, I am interested in how to do this cleanly.

How would one do this, put a coosa / plywood panel with some nuts epoxy'd in the backside, glass to the hull making sure not to get resin in nuts and then use screws to attach the cleats?

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 1st, '19, 09:29

I watched the video they through bolted the cleats and the nuts are on the outside of the boat

Is there a way to avoid this

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 1st, '19, 15:48

She's a beauty, you really gain a ton of storage space when you get rid of the engine boxes, exhaust and rudder shelf. Really like the staircase too.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Apr 1st, '19, 16:09

ktm_2000 wrote:I watched the video they through bolted the cleats and the nuts are on the outside of the boat

Is there a way to avoid this

I never liked the OEM location of the rear cleats, but they seem to work. Screws are weak for pull out strength. You could embed bolts (as studs) with large fender washers in a big pad and epoxy the whole thing to the hull. This would be stronger than screws, prettier than through bolts, weaker than through bolts, and a PITA if you strip a thread.

I love the outboards on that boat. Looks great in my opinion.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 1st, '19, 23:29

ktm_2000 wrote: How would one do this, put a coosa / plywood panel with some nuts epoxy'd in the backside, glass to the hull making sure not to get resin in nuts and then use screws to attach the cleats?

If you properly epoxy a good solid piece of resin encapsulated oak to the hull, you can probably use stainless insert nuts (also epoxied in) and stainless machine screws with Loctite in the cleats.

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » Apr 2nd, '19, 05:24

I built pads out of coosa they have a 1/2 in piece of aluminum recessed into them that is threaded. They will be beddd to the hull then glassed over. Should be way stronger than original.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 2nd, '19, 07:48

Now it looks like 90% of the boats at the Boat Shows...but with nicer lines.

It looks great, numbers are great, love the updated styling...

But like 85% of the boats at the boat show, I am not a fan of outboards.

I do not like big hunks of Iron and alum hanging off the back of my boat...sitting in water.

I like the interior openness for sure without motor boxes. Has to create a vast amount of needed storage on a 31.
But...but...that openness is hanging off the back of the boat. It's like cleaning out your truck and tossing everything into a trailer your going to toe around.
Or tossing the crap out of your attic and placing in a POD that now sits in your driveway.
So big deal, open deck, cluttered transom.
For me the 31 is about a big deck (LOL, almost typed something else instead of deck).
Aside from the build, the ride, the lines...a huge open cockpit is the go to on a 31.
Outboards restrict the transom accessibility.

That said, I wouldn't mind speeding around in one for a while.
And the looks of the outboards on these boats has grown on me...just not yet a fan of the outboards.

...aside from smaller runabouts and some center consoles were you lose the transom but gain the full length of the boat to fish, hang, play.
Trolling...nope...not yet a convert.

Then again...nobody is asking me.
If they were...there would be more boats like mine around in all different sizes.
the 26' 31
the 28' 31
the 31' 31
the 35' 31
the 40' 31
the 45' 31

...think you get the idea.

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Apr 2nd, '19, 17:46

What might be interesting to see is someone using the 31 hull with outboards and redoing it as a center console or walkaround.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 2nd, '19, 20:48

SteveM wrote:What might be interesting to see is someone using the 31 hull with outboards and redoing it as a center console or walkaround.

Steve

We have a center console on this board. He has not been on here in a while and the name escapes me. He used to post quite often way back when. Maybe Mike or Bruce remember.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 2nd, '19, 20:54

Steve

Just remembered it is Kipp with Targeted Species.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 3rd, '19, 06:31

Tony Meola wrote:Steve

Just remembered it is Kipp with Targeted Species.

Yup that's it. In that style outboards make sense as you gain the sides and bow to fish.

Had a customer rig a fighting chair up on the bow of their Ocean Master.
Idea was they could back down in forward.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 3rd, '19, 07:46

The trend that I am seeing is that most people use their boat for things other than fishing.

With two small children, my boat is the tubing, cocktailing, sandbar, island hopping, clamming, sunset cruise boat.

If this holds true for others as well then I will argue that outboards even on a bracket is a better choice.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 3rd, '19, 09:02

The trend vs my needs often conflict. That I guess is apparent by the fact that many of us own a 50 year old boat that hasn't been made in 25 years.

Every other boat I've owned has been an outboard besides the bertram and most were center consoles. I'm a fisherman first but use the boat for lots of things. The old 25 Carolina classic that is now the Albemarle comes with outboards only used to be a nice inboard or jackshaft IO. Many of the newer small sportfish boats under 30 feetor up to 35 are outboard powered these days. Very little room to fish unobstructed, but you could make the case increasing the cockpit from an 8' depth by removing the engine boxes makes outboards a viable solution. Landing a shark or tuna on an outboard powered non center console boat can require acrobatics and more often results in a cut off then an inboard powered express or outboard powered center console.

I love outboard powered center consoles, great boat for fishing and family. Tons of room to land a fish that the transom isn't the only option. The other consideration is docking if you don't have finger docks to board from the side you have to dock head in. Not bad getting on and off a center console but imagine my 79 year old mother having to hop on the bertram docked bow in or jumping the length of the outboard motors to get on the transom. Also the 31 handles like a sports car, most outboard powered boats over 30' require a bow thruster to manuver around the dock.

Certainly for a shallow bay like ours the outboards make a lot of things more convenient. But the price of the bracket and engines is going to exceed the cost of a diesel re-power or at least equal it. And for me has more draw backs then advantages. In a heart beat I'd take this boat over my old boat with gassers and deal with the other inconveniences.

Overall I really like this 31 with outboards, wouldn't be my first choice but it is a very cool boat

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Apr 3rd, '19, 09:36

[quote="PeterPalmieri"]
Certainly for a shallow bay like ours the outboards make a lot of things more convenient. /quote]

Shallow water is exactly the reason I went the O/B route. The intercoastal waterway is a puddle in North Carolina. I need to drop the wife off on the barrier beaches on the way to bluer water. It would have been easier/cheaper to drop a V8 I/O in the hole, at least from an initial cost standpoint.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 3rd, '19, 09:44

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtza9dv29eqvy ... .jpeg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iudc94hg0su8 ... .jpeg?dl=0

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 3rd, '19, 13:33

WOW i am taken back ! this boat is using 29.6 gallons a hour at 30 knots. that is incredible almost DOUBLE the amount of fuel as my boat uses at 30 knots . i would think he would be better with more torque like 350hp and lower rpm----E-tecn or yamaha.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Apr 3rd, '19, 20:22

I think the boat is beautiful. Looks very well done. The only think I scratched my head about was the rail around the deck.
But Capt Bone is right, outboards are easy to work on, less maintenance,efficient, can trailer the boat easier, etc. My buddy had a very nice 28 Albemarle with twin yanmars. He just sold it because of the draft. It would not make it into his canal and he was tired of paying slip fees. Just for heck of it I checked Albermarle site and looks like all their smaller boats are outboards now and they used to be I/Os

There is a center console on yachtworld - https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1973/b ... %20listing

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 3rd, '19, 20:33

If I remember right Kipp had that boat dialed in. Balanced perfectly and she was a fish raiser.

Matt

They usually put those railings on the 31 because they are uncomfortable wit the low freeboard. Funny, something that has never bothered me in the 44 years I have been on her. There were times in rough weather I might have crawled around on my hands and knees while running but never an issue while fishing.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 4th, '19, 08:51

tony my opinion is based on driving 1000 center consoles over a twenty year period for the salesmen. the above post i made should take into consideration the fact that the CC. Everglades,Regulator,Jupiter, contender,Intrepid. all on based on 9' to 10' beam in 31' to 32' soooooo those outboards on this 31' Bertram are pushing a 11'4" beam that is why the terrible fuel economy compare to Cummins ,yanmar,cat. diesels . you have to consider torque when pushing a boat like this i have seen this so many times in the past THAT is the reason for triple outboards. buying public used to always question the salesmen why spend the extra 35 thousand and only gain 5mph. the answer is the REAL cruise speed not the stupid talk like 41 mph Bertram yea at 50 gallons a hour that will last for 5 seconds after the speedometer is moving as fast as the fuel gauge. PLEASE trust me WOT with outboards is a not realistic. our triple 350 hp (bumped to 400 hp) on the 38' Jupiter burned 100+ gallons a hour at WOT and did 72 mph----- for 5 seconds but a good selling point.reality was 34mph.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 4th, '19, 13:30

coolair wrote: The only think I scratched my head about was the rail around the deck.

From posts: "The railing makes this vessel compliant for professional guiding with guests in British Columbia. It’s pretty simple to remove the railing if one likes."

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 4th, '19, 14:38

I would like to see that fuel consumption compared to a gas inboards. That is a more realistic comparison.

A pair of used twin 250hp outboard could be had pretty cheap.

The performance number give me confidence that I would make a simple, Transom mounted OB Bertram Bahia Mar 31 down the road.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 4th, '19, 14:40

1 mpg at 25 knots with my 440's.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 4th, '19, 16:30

Rawleigh wrote:1 mpg at 25 knots with my 440's.

Wow, that's great. That's only 14gph per motor. I don't think my 440's could hit 25 mph before pegging my 20gph flowscans, never mind 25 knts.
25knts was pretty much balls to the wall for me and after seeing the fuel gushing into the carbs at WOT a couple times...I make sure I can hit it then back off pretty quick. Looked like a garden hose wide open....sounded nice.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 4th, '19, 19:47

what the hell let`s compare apples to apples like outboard 4 stroke then likewise 496 cubic inch Mercruiser with fuel injection so we can attain the same speed as 440 or 454 carb motor with far less rpm and fuel burn.that would be a great comparison.I should also remind you a 31/32' center console normally weight in at 8,500 pounds and a 31' Bertram minus gas engines and running gear converted to tripe outboards or twin 400 hp outboards would weight in around --12,000 pounds. you are going to need around 800 to 900 hp to push that beam to a real cruise speed of 29 knots,YOU don`t really expect to run 46 MPH in the ocean with a 31 do you??????????????????

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Apr 5th, '19, 07:55

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpewnhfkhtfrr ... 9.jpg?dl=0

Now doesn't that look familiar?

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Apr 5th, '19, 20:19

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9aphiirxsj1t ... 7.JPG?dl=0

I am just glad the builder retained some of my hard work like the drainage shelves, all the smoothing/fairing inside gunnels, gunnel supports, trailer bow stop, flattering actually. I of course have my reserves about finished product (design of hull needs centered displacement/weight to work in ocean) but at least it is back on the water and should be a great boat for someone to enjoy. I’d like to fly up there and go for a ride!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 5th, '19, 20:50

Rocky

Wait, this guys buys the boat off of you, dumps a ton of money into it and now is looking to sell it?

He has 500 hours on the engines. So they are not new. How long ago did you sell it? Did not think it was that long ago.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Apr 5th, '19, 21:19

Hi Tony,
So he didn’t buy from me he bought from my lender.
I had to give her up due to financial reasons in 2014.
He is a company that builds boats to sell.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 5th, '19, 22:20

Rocky

Flipping boats has to be a money looser. I thought flipping houses was tough but boats.
I have two friends who are high end building contractors, neither one of them would think about trying to flip houses for a living. They both tell me that is a tough one and you are more likely to be at the break even point at sale time. It is never like they show it on TV.

I wish this guy luck.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Apr 6th, '19, 00:02

Yeah Tony I hear ya. I'm just glad the boat was/is in good hands and possibly a new life somewhere awaiting her. When I bounce back (hard to do in California I tell ya) I'm planning on another 31, a FBC not a SF, and will already have 6BTA's in it. That way all the big ticket things are done and the rest is just customizing to my personal taste. My retirement job I dream of is to run a six-pack charter for salmon here sort of like a captain up there in Humbolt County (Jolitime i think the name was).

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 6th, '19, 09:18

Huh...two boats from our group have been bought and rebuilt for resale. Rocky's and Bob's Frayed knot...interesting.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 6th, '19, 09:32

Tony Meola wrote:
Flipping boats has to be a money looser. I thought flipping houses was tough but boats.
I have two friends who are high end building contractors, neither one of them would think about trying to flip houses for a living. They both tell me that is a tough one and you are more likely to be at the break even point at sale time. It is never like they show it on TV.

Tony, I think the issue with your buds is they are high end. Aside from using Top grade materials they do the work behind it 100% as well.
Flipping is buy cheap, fix cheap, be willing to cut corners so the look is mid/high end range, claim high end then sell in the middle for a profit.

High end is tough as people with money want things their way and can pay for it that way so you need to be high end and a mind reader.

I wonder that some of these guys just take on these projects to keep their guys busy in the slow times...just happy to break even rather then lose a couple good guys when no work is to be had.
One yard by me has the yard guys making concrete molded items like statues, pillars, fence caps etc. Another collects sailboat keels during the season then has guys make sinkers.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 6th, '19, 10:50

I think one of the biggest take aways is that OB power on Bertram’s is now a proven power method.

In the past 5 years at least half a dozen 31 Bertram’s have successfully converted to OB.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 6th, '19, 16:15

Captions I agree it works. My question becomes what do you give up and what do you add? Performance aside. The outboard you lose that clean transom for fishing or even easy boarding and maneuvering. So then what do you gain by freeing up the space where the inboards are? In the case of this boat you get a nice staircase to the bridge not much in the way of deck space or storage.

I think to really make this a home run on an FBC the deck need to extend forward to the very lip of the fly bridge and the cabin needs to push back under the brow of the bridge. That increases cockpit space and cabin space in addition to massive fish boxes in the deck.

In the case of this boat neither is accomplished. Same cockpit, same cabin and a bunch of stuff hanging off the transom. The space where the engines were isn’t utilized in a real efficient way at all. Don’t get me wrong it’s a nice looking boat but I just don’t see the benefit being worth the effort.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 6th, '19, 18:53

Carl while we are on the outboard subject we move the cigarette center console from Raritan bay marina to Atlantic Highland marina. we also checked up on four other marina`s and much to my surprise the in water footage calculator is the boat plus bracket plus outboards in the UP POSITION!!!!!!!! the 28" center console became 28'+2'6" + 3' =33.6 and pay on closest foot at $125.00 per foot. An extra $ 750.00 a year for a slip.The south shore of Suffolk county they hit you for bracket plus outboards in down position.Not that that really matters in the grand concept of three pairs of engines in 10 years.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 6th, '19, 20:27

I am baised clearly with a love for outboards.

For me here are the benefits and why it works so well for me.

Draft and the ability to go very shallow
No smell
Trimming them out of the water
Ease of finding someone to work on them
Ease of repower
Speed
Efficiency (for gas)
No vibration
Desirability for resale
Commonality (quantity has its very own quality)
Bracket is a swim platform
Less hull penetrations

For me currently tubing, clamming and exploring are the families top priorities. For my use hands down outboard is the clear winner. Now if 90% of my time was in the canyons, I would sing a different tune.

I have found that the intended use of a boat and actual use various greatly. I have been dreaming of diesel pick up truck but when I calculate how I would actually use it, the logic is very much against it.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone uses their stuff differently and their is no blanket answer to fit everyone.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 6th, '19, 22:34

I'm curious how this B31 rides in snotty conditions, without 2000# of metal sitting low in the hull fairly far forward, does the hull lift up then crash back down after going through a decent wave where a hull in the original config would go through them without a lot of bow lift?

This is one of the concerns I have in my B25 project, I'm worried I'm making it too light.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Apr 7th, '19, 10:33

Captbone,
I don't know if I agree with efficiency being better in the ocean where you can't cover ground quickly due to conditions and the outboards are struggling to keep boat at slow plane.
I guess you could always add weight to the mid section to shoulder through snotty conditions but I would think that would unbalance the boat? Desirability for resale in a boat not designed for outboards is subjective. I remember Alex Witaker always telling me (31Bertram.com) this boat is almost like a football where it has a wide mid section and likes to shoulder through heavy snotty sea. Take that displacement away in mid section and put it on the back, I don't know. Doesn't seem like it would shoulder through anymore. But I do agree with all your other points of outboards on this boat, it would just take a specific buyer and his/her needs.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 7th, '19, 11:34

I can see outboards advantage in skinny water.

Sure it's easier to repowering...which I guess is good as I hear lots of guys needing to do that.
But an inboard repower to the same motors isn't a huge undertaking either.

Less vibration...quieter. I'll give that to the outboards.

Resale -- maybe I'm wrong but I hear older outboards can be picked up quite reasonable. Not an advantage to buyers of new...and is the reason used are so much less is the warrantee is over? I'm just talking here without facts...
Resale of 31 with outboards... not yet as I think they still have a certain classic status, people want to buy something they can sell if they have to without losing a ton of green. Ok, maybe that's just me. But a custom oddball I don't see as an easy seller to many buyers...

My other issue is maneuvering with outboards...gotta be a reason many of these boats also have bow thrusters...

It's great that outboards are a 31 option ...for others.

I know I must be in the minority...one only needs to walk through a boat show to see outboards are selling...otherwise EvERy boat in the shows wouldn't have outboards.
Lol cabin cruisers to mini tugs all had outboards.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 7th, '19, 15:05

Well said Carl.

I think the key is for each person to look at how they use their boat and make a determination for themselves. There is not magic engine combination that is ideal for everyone.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 7th, '19, 16:01

This one with triples is really nice

https://youtu.be/tazTfjJqGf4

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 8th, '19, 06:37

PeterPalmieri wrote:This one with triples is really nice

https://youtu.be/tazTfjJqGf4

Looks great, love to use it for a couple days!

A picture is worth a thousand words.

My wife is 5'9"...that picture is about right if she was in the water.

Whose up for a swim.

Wanna sit on or around transom and fish around that.

.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 8th, '19, 11:48

1000 pounds each, $45 per pound. If you need to know how much fuel it burns, you can't afford it.

buzzk · Post by **buzzk** » Apr 8th, '19, 12:33

I never thought I would see the day where I would want a Bertram 31 with outboards but outboards are what I would want now. Nothing runs and handles like a twin inboard diesel but it seems like everywhere I want to go is shoaling up. There is no money for dredging and it looks like the situation is only going to get worse, give me outboards.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Apr 8th, '19, 12:45

If you run three outboards with port and starboard rotating in opposite directions, won't the one in the middle make the boat steer to one side?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 8th, '19, 14:06

I HAVE FOUND A BRILLIANT SOLUTION TO THE DEBATE, outboards mounted midship. Of course they'd need to be OXE diesel outboards.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 8th, '19, 14:44

to me the main issue is that a professional marine architect designed the hull around inboard power with weight in specific places. Unless great care is taken to evaluate where weight was and is going to, the hull might not provide the superior ride which we chose our boats for.

In my Bertram 25 case of changing out 1300# of I/Os @5 feet back from the center of buoyancy for 650# of a 300hp outboard 8 feet back is not radically different from a physics moment viewpoint.

Moving removing 2000# of weight from near the center of buoyancy to 1300# 14 feet back from the center of buoyancy IS radically different unless you are compensating in other ways. Fuel tanks are an interesting way of doing this but they have a rather large drawback as the fuel can be consumed. So if the hull sits and rides great with a full load of fuel, what happens if you make a canyon run and on the way home and at the end of your trip you have only 25% of the fuel left in the tanks. Is the boat running bow proud at that point? Are you running tabs fully extended?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 8th, '19, 16:19

ktm_2000 wrote:to me the main issue is that a professional marine architect designed the hull around inboard power with weight in specific places. Unless great care is taken to evaluate where weight was and is going to, the hull might not provide the superior ride which we chose our boats for.

Might be giving too much credit to those that created our boats.

The 31 prototype originally had motors more aft and in their race design kept weight way back.
Taming them down to sell public the motors got shifted up forward with a the cabin weight again changing the characteristics of the boat.

Boat running outboards might be closer to the original design.

Now why did they add the weight up forward...to offer a better layout or mid speed performance.