exhaust water discharge

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 18th, '18, 15:49

I am having the switch to the old log style exhaust manifolds. As they are set up the raw water is discharged through the "goose" neck style riser. Would there be any reason i could not make that riser fresh water cooled and discharge the raw water further down stream?

here is a link with pictures of the risers

http://www.mrcool.us/20-0039-barr-marine-risers.html

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 18th, '18, 18:45

You can...

BUT, always a but...

But you can't use exhaust hose or fiberglass tube till the exhaust is cooled by the water.

So question is - - you cool the gooseneck riser and the riser leads to what?

You will also need a showerhead to spray the water around the outside of the exhaust to cool and avoid hot spots on the exhaust hose.

And if your going to go through all the trouble, expense and work to make a custom SS, copper or copper nickle shower head...why freshwater cool the cast iron riser in the first place...just make a custom riser that flows better and lasts for years and years over the cast iron ones.

Or buy one... http://www.marinemanifoldcorp.com/

Have them on my 440's. Freshwater cooled manifolds with copper risers that come together is a Y flows down with a 90 deg bend to the exhaust hose.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 18th, '18, 22:49

There is always a but... which is why i posted!
I was thinking about using copper today on some other parts. Do you have any pictures handy of your set up? I will give thosee guys a call tomorrow.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 19th, '18, 16:47

Not my boat, but these are the ones.

Or look at how they do diesel risers and elbows...all about the same idea.

MikeD@Lightningshack · Post by **MikeD@Lightningshack** » Dec 19th, '18, 22:16

FYI... Marine Manifold corp made me new Stainless manifolds for the 6CX's in my Henriques this winter. They also made the originals that were wet elbows from monel or copper nickel, and managed to last 18 seasons.

They were in the middle of building V block manifold for a 31 Bertram. I think he said it was for a 6V-53 Detroit. Odd setup, and hard to imagine the manifold sitting under the standard 31 engine box.

Don't be fooled by the how messy the shop is, or how clumsy the quoting process becomes. They are good welders and they know how to make custom manifolds. They even gave me a couple hundred dollar price break at the end, while I was counting off hudred dollar bills to meet his original quote.

Happy customer, also did a lot of research and found many people that were happy they did business with Paul.

Good luck!

Mike

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 20th, '18, 06:51

I sent a few of my stingiest friends there when they started complaining on how short the cast iron risers lasted before noticing motor temps rising do to clogged risers and elbows.
Have to say each one, while a little uneasy paying the upfront cost told me it was the best money they spent...true it might have been a few years later when they should have been going for new elbows but they came around.
Good people, good work

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 20th, '18, 10:54

They look very nice. I am going to call them and see what they say.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 20th, '18, 11:37

What I liked about them is it becomes one of those items you don't have to deal with again for many years.

I remember when dad had 440's in his boat. The elbows were cold, great! The elbows were cold, great. The elbows are cool, the elbows are warm- temps running up. Elbows are pretty warm, temps high. Pull risers and stick them, new gaskets and we went back to kinda cool, motor temp good for a bit then back to warm, warmer, kinda hot, pull and stick em again. Get a season..try for another...talk about changing, talk about changing.

Change elbows and risers. Engines running cool, risers are cold...good for a few seasons then it started again.

MikeD@Lightningshack · Post by **MikeD@Lightningshack** » Dec 20th, '18, 22:20

I had Merc 454's for 16 seasons. The risers never gave me a problem, but I'd change them every 3 years whether they needed to be replaced or not. They were only about $100/ea and took about 2 to 3 hours to swap them all. Easy topside work with just 4 bolts and a couple of SW hoses. I used stainless blocking plates, gaskets on both sides and I think I used HT RTV.

Not sure what a custom exhaust would cost for gassers, but I think with so many aftermarket manifold and elbow options that fit gassers, I probably would not have changed my strategy for the 454's.

For sure you could spend a couple grand and never need to touch your exhaust for riser for maintenance again.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 21st, '18, 06:30

Mike, alot depends on the setup. Dad had a riser and a dump for each side on his. So double the 100 to 200 and two motors was 400. I am using your numbers, but I think it was a good bit more. Could also be he just did one side at a time. Its just something I always recall being an issue to some degree.

But your right, change them every 3 years and that should take care of problems before they become problems.

Although my buddy did just that. The beginning of year his third season the riser took a dump, bending a valve or two in the process.

He's about as lucky as I am...

For me, I liked it not being an issue. Then again they came with my boat so it wasn't much of a cost for me.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 21st, '18, 21:46

Back in the day, when my cousin had a contact, Mercruiser risers use to cost us about $150 a piece. Once we lost the contact they doubled in price. We dock in brackish water so we used to change them out every 6 to 7 years. Anything more you were pushing it.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 6th, '19, 02:11

Carl. Those are copper. You dont see copper used much. Everyone uses stainless. I like the thought of copper though. That is something i work with all the time.

Why copper. Not stainless?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 7th, '19, 13:10

Yes they are copper and some are made from cupronnickle.

As to why...I cannot really say for sure.
But I think they do outlast SS risers and copper is bit easier to work with as far as forming the contours goes, just some guesses.

Cupronickle isn't so easy to work with, but about the best material for use in salt water.

Here is a link to saburke17 RTO's with SS down pipes I guess we can call 'em.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173720061318

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Jan 9th, '19, 14:48

Carl wrote:Yes they are copper and some are made from cupronnickle.

As to why...I cannot really say for sure.
But I think they do outlast SS risers and copper is bit easier to work with as far as forming the contours goes, just some guesses.

Cupronickle isn't so easy to work with, but about the best material for use in salt water.

I just took out the original copper manifolds from the Riva. Raw water cooled with 48 years of service in salty Mediterranean water! Still no leaks, but starting to sweat in a couple of the welds. Pretty impressive! I would have liked to put them back in with the new engines - since they look so good - but didn’t dare. Expensive as hell, but depreciated over 48 years is still ok...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 9th, '19, 15:06

I destroyed my original set trying to fix a leak. Its what happens when your in a rush wanting to get out fishing. Should have brought out for repair on Monday...but it was late Friday and I felt a need to fish Saturday. So to the shop I went...didn't have the right tools to clean, didn't have copper plate the right size but continued anyway. I got leaks to something manageable...but dirty welds where porous.

Anyway, I bought a pair from a fellow board-member. They too had a couple small leaks when I tested them...but this time I learned. Put in drivers car and he dropped them off at LI Manifold whose a few blocks away from a customer of mine. Few days later and I think a $150 bucks I was fixed and pressure tested back in business.

A long story to tell you they are very repairable.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 9th, '19, 16:09

I finally got a chance to talk to Paul. I honestly have this feeling of wanting to try and make them myself. But we braze copper, we do not tig weld it. Again I have welders who can. But he started rattling off how he would make a flange, etc etc. they seem like they know what they are talking about. Like every said. Pricey, but between the 25 + year life span, well worth it.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jan 11th, '19, 11:47

Mine still has the same copper Y it was delivered with in 1966.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 12th, '19, 09:12

Matt,

The design is simple enough to tackle if you have the time and knowledge to work with the materials.
Its only tube inside a tube that has to be watertight.

What they have going for them is they have the templates and designs down to a "T" already.
Toughest thing is getting those flanges to stay and be lined up to mate with exhaust manifold...do not think your going to be able to tweak the angles or distances like you can with a simple copper tube.
Once you have double wall tubes fixed to a common flange and point they do not move without extreme persuasion. Think Come-A-long and jacks to get bolts to line up.

25 year lifespan...try 30-40-50 as they came with the boats when new.
That said, are you keeping the boat long enough to make up for the money outlay?
Will the motors last that long?

Yeah...I know I was on the other side of the fence before...and I still am, just saying they come at a cost.

The other up side to these custom manifolds is they flow so much better then having salt water flow through small cast iron cavities...that get progressively smaller as they rust.
yup...I'm on the other side again.

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Jan 15th, '19, 09:42

Riva OEM replacement manifolds for 454's. To quote Rolls-Royce: "If you have to ask, you can't afford them"... (I had to ask..)

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 15th, '19, 20:51

Lars, I would have to ask too and i can only imagine! i am curious though...

Carl, long response short, you are right and I agree. As i have said to my customers- Some things are best left to the professionals.
Trust me I understand what you are saying about fitting things up. Hard drawn copper is not very forgiving. I spent all weekend with my guys installing 2-1450 lb stainless steel tube evap coils 10' in the air with copper from 5/8" on up to 2 1/8". When you start dealing with the 1" and up stuff its is a different ball game. Need bigger torch tips,more gas,etc.

I have said this many times about many things. I have no doubt in my mind that i could make these risers and they be 100% functional. But those guys will do it faster,better and make it look better, because they do it everyday. They have the tricks and as you said the knowledge to work the materials properly.

As far as the return on investment. Its a boat and its a classic boat. There is no monetary justification for spending the money on any part of it.
My motors are Ford 460s, the last time someone used them in a marine engine much less a reverse rotation engine was in 1988. They are odd balls for example they have a 9 bolt water pump as apposed to the 11 bolt every other ford has. I managed to crack the reverse distributor gear and could not find a replacement so I am having one made. Of course Monday i found a guy that has a bunch of distributors for a $100.00 bucks. Want to guess what I had to spend to get a gear made. So at this point, I might as well spend them money on good stuff that will last since I am spending the money to keep my odd ball motors!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 18th, '19, 15:01

" If you have to ask, you can't afford them"... (I had to ask..) Back in the seventies i was a professional APBA (offshore raceboats) driver and i asked the boat owner the cost of the Stelling SS tubular water cooled headers .they were $16,000 per motor so you were at $32,000 for the exhaust headers!

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Jan 18th, '19, 15:56

Those manifolds are beautiful!
I'm a little slow...
The manifolds on my Crusader 454s are fresh water (coolant) cooled. They are the old "log type" and appear ready to last a good bit longer.
Is there a resource for a copper replacement for the exhaust elbows that are raw water cooled? These are the 3-5 season items that are not cheap and ant pleasant to swap out.
Regards,
Stephan

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 19th, '19, 22:20

Stephan wrote:Those manifolds are beautiful!

Is there a resource for a copper replacement for the exhaust elbows that are raw water cooled? These are the 3-5 season items that are not cheap and ant pleasant to swap out.

Stephan...Matt put you up to asking that, didn't he?

Anyway,
I think the guy who responded to Matt in the 2nd post gave a link to a place that makes Copper Replacements...he may have even posted a picture of a boat with Copper risers and dumps.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Jan 20th, '19, 10:46

Carl-
You are too kind - never make the mean team being that sort of considerate...

Thank you,
Stephan

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 20th, '19, 12:35

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 20th, '19, 22:01

LOL . Sadly i didn't put him up to it.

and $32K for headers.. ouch. I guess the ones for my fords are not all that expensive in comparison!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 21st, '19, 10:46

that's the price for "M" class boat headers and that was the class of boats that allowed headers. the open class boats had triple big blocks with stainless headers well over $ 90,000 because they were interwoven the center engine was also 4 foot forward. a truly beautiful thing to see in person.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 21st, '19, 11:57

Guy I bought my 1st boat from sold his 46 Bertram for an Aronow bubble something boat. He came to me sometime after to have me cut and rotate a collector tube on his header to clear something on the other motor then I had to Fed Ex it to Florida to meet the boat. I almost keeled over when he told me to insure it for 20k.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 22nd, '19, 23:57

Bob, post some pictures if you have any. would love to see them. Pretty crazy what a couple pieces of stainless steel cost!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 23rd, '19, 06:55

Whats crazy is when done right they look so simple to do.
Flowing curves all polished to look as if done from one...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 23rd, '19, 22:43

keep in mind you have inner and outer piping. big block usually inner pipe 2 1/4" and outer pipe 2 5/8" and you have to match the curves exactly so the inner are welded every 6" or less then they slide outer pipe over to coincide with inner and weld .needless to say even a pinhole in inner pipe and the $60.000 engine is destroyed,----------not for the timid

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 23rd, '19, 23:09

60K for one engine makes my rebuild look like a bargain! Things like that are art work in my eyes.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 24th, '19, 15:23

these are the exhaust headers i installed in my 71 corvette .they are similar to boat and 316SS however imagine making an exact shape but larger diameter to fit over every pipe with water circulating in between the two. pretty complicated welding.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 24th, '19, 23:05

Beautiful!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 24th, '19, 23:22

thank you

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 25th, '19, 07:17

That looks like fun install Bob.

I quite enjoyed putting my headers on...

Then attached sidepipes to the car.

Then drove car to a shop having connection pipes fitted and welded.

Doing as One Piece...that must have been a hoot and a half to install.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 25th, '19, 08:32

Carl you have a good eye or quite a bit of experience !!!!!! First i dry fitted the headers on the block then i attempted to install with car 16" off ground NOPE so i raised car to 3' and removed valve cover on drivers side.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jan 25th, '19, 19:42

Looks like one of them ol' fashion, manual fuel injector doohickies on top of that there engine......

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 25th, '19, 21:50

i am installing the Holley fuel injection system this week ! i removed the carb and all the constant tuning problems.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 27th, '19, 22:48

so whats wrong with a pair of those in a Bertram????

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 28th, '19, 10:57

coolair wrote:so whats wrong with a pair of those in a Bertram????

Nothing....but
You would have to modify the inboard headers to go up and over the motor while lengthening the outboard headers to keep same length for each side.
Doable.

Of course it would all have to be 316L for the sidepipes so they do not corrode, and either do a tandam over under OR larger pipes...

An up side to having sidepipes on a boat when fishing...you can TAG the fish with a custom Brand (AKA- Branding Iron). Just bring the fish along side and give a touch.
Ask my wife to show you the nice Tag on her leg from mine. Interesting that I decided to go with the old Stock fiberglass covers so as not to brand her when she got out of the car. But she was so anxious to go for a ride I didn't have time to put them on. I can't tell you how many times I told her to be careful, pipes are hot, be careful, pipes are hot...She wasn't careful...and the pipes were hot!

Huh, here we go...another up side!!

Seared Fresh Tuna, right out of the water!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 28th, '19, 20:45

then there are guys like Bob who put resonators in the 4 1/2" sidepipes .you can put your hands around the sidepipe exit were you exit the car however they will burn you were they come out from under the car.-------year there loud .

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 29th, '19, 11:14

coolair a 454 such as you would have in a 31 Bertram (330hp or 350HP) would gain between 50 and 55 hp @ WOT. over stock cast iron risers however the noise out the transom will make you deaf in no time.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jan 30th, '19, 23:19

Hmm. fresh seared tuna, deafening big blocks sucking down fuel... Works for me!

Bob, what fuel injection set up are you using? I was looking into putting something in the boat instead of the carbs, but at this point I am spending money else where.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 31st, '19, 09:05

Holley Sniper is the injection of choice . they have a fabulous group of technicians that are available 8 hours a day,needless to say they have a huge following both marine and auto. the kit comes with a 6" display and you set all your parameters on screen then the computer will learn the AIR -FUEL ratio in the first 10 hours from sensor inputs. i will take photo. of mine tonight and post. Sniper injection is good up to 650hp .

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 31st, '19, 20:58

i have not completed the fuel injection wiring however everything else is finish ,namely the feed and return fuel lines were quite a bit of labor taping the chassie for gas line clamps and remove fuel tank to provide fuel injection fuel pump. installation on a 31 Bertram would be a much simpler job with front access plate on tank easily adapted to twin fuel return lines. 31 Bertram should exceed 15% better fuel economy and far surperior starting regardless of ambient temperature.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 1st, '19, 21:53

The sniper looks like a pretty slick setup. I believe it is also coast guard approved. I was about ready to pull the trigger on them for my boat. But i spoke to a company out of Florida he expressed his concerns about the sniper reliability and aftermarket EFI in general in the marine environment(he did however feel the terminator/dominator setup would be reliable). He did mention that holley has a fuel regulator which can be easily be adjusted, you could always carry a carb and if the efi failed you could just switch over. When I spoke to Holley directly, they really couldn't tell me much about the performance in a marine application. There is also the issue of the O2 sensor location.
So i decided to hold off for now. I know I will end up needing the money for something else anyway, like these copper exhaust risers!

HA. I just went to the holly website and they now have the sniper under their marine section-go figure.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 2nd, '19, 09:51

Ah...throttle body, that makes sense. I was wondering how injection was being incorporated after.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 2nd, '19, 11:43

carl actually it is not throttle body as in yesteryear, namely you need an very special manifold that has equal runners and the benefit of outside cool air flowing under the fuel charge and keeping hot oil in lifter valley from heating the fuel charge. most of all Sniper Fuel injection is self -learning with onboard computer display or connect laptop and controll spark timing curve as well as A/F ratio from idle to WOT (8000 rpm) and capable of 650 HP.unit controls are marine rated and quite popular among performace marine boaters.ALL the drag racing experts have learned quite a bit in recent years by way of "OUTLAW' racing and that is placing the fuel injector over the intake port is not the best for performance, now we elevate it a few inches in a hand made sheet metal manifold thus the new Sniper Fuel injection is based on that theory along with computer controlled by sensors for optimum power and fuel economy.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 18th, '19, 23:10

Bob
Have you had a chance to finish your install on the Holley system? how is it doing?