2020 Repower

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 4th, '18, 12:33

Hey guys I know this is a ways out but putting all my ducks in a row to make this happen after the 2020 season. So I've got to finish out this year and get two more seasons out of the old girls (454s)

Would love to go with the Cummins 6BT 220HP but I'm having trouble getting details on the cost of the motors and gears. I'd really like to have realistic numbers in my head as to how much I really need to plan on setting aside. I'm open to other options as well but hoping to stay under 50k complete, maybe that's not realistic? Are there any Yanmar options on the table these days? Planning on reaching out to Dickson's in Bayshore, anyone else come to mind?

Thanks,

Pete

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sep 4th, '18, 17:19

Peter, you can't go wrong with the Cummins package in my opinion. I'm thinking the 6BTs came in 210, 250, 270, 300 and 300 HP versions. Terry Frank had the 210s in his 31 that he recently sold, and Lin Spears has the 250s in his 31. Maybe they or others will chime in on their performance numbers.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 4th, '18, 23:56

Peter

I have the 270 remand. In 2008 the engines and trans pre install were 38. The issue now as I have been told is that due to demand that same package has doubled in price

The 250/270 engines are a great fit for what we do up here in the north east.

I would suspect getting pricing is tough if you tell them you are thinking about doing this in 2020.

The Cummins are less money to maintain since parts can be had at most truck suppliers who are Cummins dealers. Filters from Yanmars will cost double the Cummins.

I really started out thinking Yanmar, but there was a 10,000 pricing difference which quickly changed my mind. Also the turbo on the 250 and 270 Cummins are fresh water cooled, which greatly reduces maintenance.

The 270 Cummins will turn 2600 rpms about 30 knots. At 2000 rpms you are running at about 21 knots at 2400 it us around 24 knots.

It is thought to keep it under 50,000. You will need to upgrade too many things. There will be s need to upgrade shafts, wiring, bulkheads, steering etc.

Why don't you see what Raybo has to say about pricing on the Cummins.

.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 5th, '18, 07:45

Tony were those new prices? or remans?

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sep 5th, '18, 08:05

Typo: I meant to type "300 and 330 HP" as the upper end of the horsepower versions.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 5th, '18, 23:56

Timmy

Remans.

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Sep 6th, '18, 10:36

Peter,
You may want to consider re powering with new gas engines. It would be far less expensive, and you would not have to change out your running gear, etc. Probably a much quicker process too.
I think,that unless you are putting tons of hours on your engines, it's tough to justify the diesel expense. I've done it with Yanmars, and yes they are great. I'm not sure you get the "appreciation" out of the investment though.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 6th, '18, 12:11

Agree.

Unless you're running out to the canyon on a regular basis, it's hard to justify.

Other than the cool factor..... which can't be overstated.....

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 6th, '18, 12:57

SteveM wrote:Peter,
You may want to consider re powering with new gas engines. It would be far less expensive, and you would not have to change out your running gear, etc. Probably a much quicker process too.
I think,that unless you are putting tons of hours on your engines, it's tough to justify the diesel expense. I've done it with Yanmars, and yes they are great. I'm not sure you get the "appreciation" out of the investment though.

Good point, I am honestly considering that as well. Some one in the boat yard I use replaced 454s with 502s (33 formula) and went from .75 to 1.125 a 50% increase in economy, I didn't get the details on the cost but it is significantly lower. I used to do a lot of offshore fishing and put lots of hours on my prior boat before I had kids. We now run a round the bay quite a bit and poke out along the beach from time to time. Maybe that changes down the road, I like a high cruise speed in the bay which is pretty big here. Economy isn't really that important but reliability is.

The other side besides all the obvious benefits of a diesel (range, saftey, reliability, longevity) is resale value vs the cost of keeping the boat forever. A diesel boat will sell quicker for much more money vs gas / if I keep this boat forever and factor in future gas repowers, diesel also comes out ahead.

So no question my current boating needs I could be very happy with gas motors, my bank account would also be happy. But I'm not sure it's the best long term decision if; my young kids (6&9) and wife want to fish offshore or put a lot more hours on the boat traveling, we keep it past the usable life of the gas motors or we decide to sell it in the next 4-5 years.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Sep 6th, '18, 13:25

Pete
the only other place that's done a ton of re powers in the area is Al Grovers in freeport
dante did mine and many more 31s
with the yanmars, I believe they do cummins also
Dante can give you a good ball park figure
if you stop down tell him I sent you

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 6th, '18, 13:40

Charlie J wrote:Pete
the only other place that's done a ton of re powers in the area is Al Grovers in freeport
dante did mine and many more 31s
with the yanmars, I believe they do cummins also
Dante can give you a good ball park figure
if you stop down tell him I sent you

Thanks Charlie, I don't know that there are Yanmar options on the table for our 31s anymore. It's my understanding they only do Yanmar and Volvo diesels? I will send them an email

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Sep 6th, '18, 18:07

Peter--I replaced my unreliable big block Crusaders with Yanmars in 2004 and have never regretted it. New gas engines would provide reliability but for me there is a comfort factor pushing up the throttles in the middle of the straits in dirty weather and hearing the diesels rumble up. You won't make up the cost difference in fuel but somehow it feels better pumping diesel instead of gas at the fuel dock. And gas is more per gallon out here now.

It sounds as though you may have already talked yourself into diesels and my input is that if you can afford it, do it.

Mack · Post by **Mack** » Sep 6th, '18, 20:02

Peter-
I am running 454's as well and have been going through the same thought process lately. We use the boat in the Chesapeake Bay and generally don't run more than 2 hours in one direction. I also tend to do a lot of drift fishing, which requires a lot of start/stop of the engines - not sure diesels would be too happy in that scenario. Nonetheless, I am going to do some exploring in the Cummings and Yanmar booths at the Annapolis boat shows in October and see what all of the options are. I believe Yanmar recently came out with several engines in the 200-300 hp range, however it looks to me that they are all 4 bangers, which was a disaster for Cummings a few years back. They also appear to be very expensive.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as you do your homework. Maybe we can find some one to give us a deal (i.e. under $50-60k) if we do both of our boats at the same time!?

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 7th, '18, 18:50

Pete,
Here's my take ... look at what the market is bearing for a finished 31 in both gas and diesel .... and cost compare it to what your all in number is going to be . the refit plus repower both as gas .. and diesel.... I'm doing that with baby hat ... I know what the refit is going to cost me ... my current gassers are efi with about 800hrs on them ... I expect I'll just put more fuel on .. and when it comes time for motors .. install the 502's .. See if you can raise Scott Trankle .. he repowered his 31 with them .. and the thing flat out flys .. and gets good mpg..... BTW.. "if" I was doing canyon trips every weekend I'd likely go diesel ... but I'm not .... so for the occasional maybe deep trip .. I'll suck up the fuel costs

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 7th, '18, 22:51

Tommy

What you are saying is true. But the 31 is tight on extra fuel space. With gas engines once you cross the 250 gallon mark, the extra weight starts to work against you and once you hit the 300 gallon mark forget it.

the extra weight causes you to burn more to keep the boat up on a plane. When you figure for a run to the deep you have extra fuel, ice, slabs of bait all loaded at the back end of the boat, those gassers have to work real hard.

Without seeing Scots performance numbers, I find it hard to believe they are even close to Diesel.

I will give you that is cheaper to repower with gas but if you need to fix shaft logs, strut pads, rudder shelf and a bulkhead, the cost difference between gas and diesel shrinks. If that stuff is all good then the gas engines are by far cheaper.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 8th, '18, 07:51

All of what you say is true..... BUT.... ... there is still a 30k plus delta between gas and diesel .... it would seem you could solo charter a lot of things for a few canyon trips a year.. or buy a lot of fuel for buddies with bigger diesel boats for those trips .... regarding resale .. once you get into the pushing 100k + mark it opens up a HUGE market of other options ... and makes the buyer pool fairly narrow for 60year old boats ... "most" of the younger guys are looking for 30-40knt (plus) CC'

I'm certainly not trying to dissuade a diesel conversion .... and I may still do it ... just doing a super hard look at the numbers

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 8th, '18, 09:31

I am agreeing with Timmy on this one.

I'd love to pull up at the fuel dock and only need 30 gallons of fuel as I decided to go around the Island instead of the 60 gallons of gas I burnt.

But I only run that much a couple times a season...otherwise it 20 miles round trip for dinner trip once in awhile, the occasion 20 mile round trip beach day...90% of the time its a 10 -15 minute cruise to fishing grounds and back.

So what is the cost difference on the larger of my runs using 60 gallons. Assuming diesel is half my burn at 1.8 mpg to my .9

Gas 60 X 3.10 gallon $186.00
Diesel 30 X 3.25 gallon $97.50

Difference is $88.50

If I spent 30k more for diesel, I would have to do that kind of trip 339 times to break even.

Figure we have 4 months in the season, 16 weeks, 16 times I'd use that much per day...that 21 years, 11.5 if I did that twice a week.

Most weeks I burn 20-40 gallons...less of a pay back.

Now the smile factor...how much more smile to hear the diesel rumble. To pull up to fuel dock and say, No I need the diesel hose, not the gas. To cruise faster. Not have boat lug up the back of waves. To know after 6 hours running out...you have plenty of fuel to get back, after 4 hours... The smell of diesel exhaust.

Down side...the smell of diesel fuel, the boat will smell of diesel. Diesel exhaust...its a love hate, many a lady seem to be the latter. Initial cost. Rebuilds and repairs are not cheap.

STraenkle · Post by **STraenkle** » Sep 8th, '18, 15:48

OK, so here is my story, ethanol.... Blew both 454's , was going thru a divorce and 3 kids that wanted to go to college with an ex wife that never worked in here life.. short on money. Bought 2 running take outs with ZF gears from a sea ray that went diesel. they are 496 MPI Mag HOs, at 425 HP each for 16K with 250 hours on them. Only issue was the gears were 2:1 not a 1.5:1. Ran the original 1 3/8 shafts till last summer (7 years) when I finally twisted them up. But the 454's running at 3000 RPM and 21 Knots were 1 gal a mile. the 496 MPI running 3500 RPM but 33% throttle due to low gearing were 1.1 miles per gallon at 24 knots. I put aquamet 22 1 1/2 shafts in this year, new struts, bearings, PSS dripless, etc about 7k in parts because I broke the 1975 316 1 3/8 shafts showing off. The boat was faster out of the hole than my Ski Nautique, doesn't take much to love the g's.

Long story short, I cruise at 25 to 26 at 1.1 MPG and maybe, I have not put the computer on it since the new shafts and much larger props of 22x 24, but guessing still only 40% throttle, meaning these engines are just barely working hard. Diesel is better if your in need of 400 mile range and like 2 MPG, but do some math and at last check the engines alone are 25 to 30 K, cheap remain. Yanmars 30K per engine. 50 K buys 15,000 to 20,000 gals of fuel or more miles than most of us will ever put on the boats. Just my 2 cents, oh and I hate cleaning black soot off the stern and inside the fridge and food before I eat it.

One last thing, I love diesel engines, but I got an amazing deal on these motors and a 12,000 lbs boat does not need diesels, 50,000 does, but a gas engine pushes these light boats very well and with an RPM range of 800 to 5000 you can go very slow, like 3 knots, cruise at 25 knots with 25 GPH, or go 36 knots at WOT, if you don't might burning 55 GPH.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 8th, '18, 22:29

For laughs, what would new big blocks with new transmissions cost? I would have to guess 15 a side before installation. Does anyone have a closer number on that type of package?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 10th, '18, 10:56

I posted this thread at a good time, in addition to some really helpful responses I was able to chat with a bunch of folks at the rendezvous and include my wife in the conversation. God bless her she's pretty open to doing whatever I think is best.

My conclusion thus far is 502s would work for us with the kind of boating we do. When I look for a total diesel re-power, I have a to include the idea of selling my boat and buying one that is already done, which I've been very reluctant in being open too. In that case it would make sense to include other boats then the 31 Bertram as well, again something I am not really comfortable with but recognize should weigh in. Lot's of nice boats out there when you total budget is 100k (sale of boat + re-power cost).

While my boat is far from being completely updated it does have many great qualities, some of which would be a step back to get better motors and inherit an entirely new set of someone else's problems. Including not knowing how meticulously a re-power was done or how well it's been serviced since.

So the jury is still out, will continue to save my pennys and hope the motors continue to buy me some time....

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 10th, '18, 12:34

Pete-

Thought I posted Scot and Pete Fallons old posts here. I might have posted elsewhere or...decided it was too long winded, preachy and removed.

Anyway, Scot does have great numbers...but Pete Fallon seems to have had better with 454's detuned.
Do a sight "Search" for "Pete Fallon Detuned" if you want to read over the older threads.

I am thinking 454's are bit less pricey, they fit right in and you can live with same running gear. Yes I know you already have, but thinking, if like mine they are getting a bit tired and have already detuned themselves over the years.

Kind of funny when we talk about dumping 30-40-50k into a 50 year old boat. I am at the low end as I'd repower with RTO's, do 90% of my own work and I have most of the running gear and/or would make my own. Still tough to dump that much into a boat that needs paint, windows, interior work and updating. Especially when a buddy just bought a low hour, 2002, 27' Albamarle with twin yanmar 240's, full electronics for about the cost of a refit. Something to be said about the smell of fresh gelcoat inside a boat...

As long as my kids are in school and motors keep running, I can use, enjoy and let life present the choices. What I do know is I am not going in hock for a boat...or for motors. Maybe down the road...but need to get a bit further.

Re: finally got her in the water

Postby Pete Fallon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:24 pm
SaBurke,
My 1961 31' Express did 41.8 MPH on the NorthStar 951X when the boat was repowered in 1997. That was with full fuel (170) gallons, 25 gallons fresh water, empty holding tank 6 gallons, soft top up and 22' Rupp single spreader outriggers in place. Speed runs were done in Lake Worth between Old Port Cove and the Blue Heron Blvd Bridge. Wind SW @15 slack tide. 2' Chop. Three people on board. The 41.8 MPH was into the wind, down wind was 42.6 MPH.@ 4400 RPMs. She started to chine walk at 40 MPH. Plenty fast enough for anything I ever wanted to do.

I used to run from Lake Worth inlet to the Loran tower in Hobe Sound to sailfish. Most days I would run up and back @ 30 MPH at 3000 RPMs and burn 22 GPH each way used to take around 30 minutes from the slip in Riveria Beach Marina to Loran Tower. I found if I ran 2000 RPMS she did 20MPH, at 2500 RPMS she did 25MPH. 3000 RPMS she did 30 MPH . The engines were 7.4L 454 CID 330 HP detuned to 310 HP FWC big Block Throttle Bodied Mercruisers with Hurth 63A * degree down angle trannies 3 blade Nybral 17x19 bronze props, 1-1/4" Monel shafts that were 106" long from coupler to end of shaft.. The boat had a low profile strut system with only 9.5" of clearance between the strut barrel center to the bottom of the boat, with a set of small struts just aft of the shaft exits to prevent shafts from whipping. The shaft lay out was original from the Bertram factory in 1961. Bob Lico runs a low profile shaft set up if I remember correctly, the lower the shaft angle the faster she goes.
Glad to hear that your finally in the water Good Luck.

Re: crusader 6.0 mpi in a 31 fbc

Postby Pete Fallon » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:23 pm
Bob Lico,
I have told others about the performance of 31's with shallow shaft angles, they don't believe me either. I nevr got the 45 degree angle slam but she probably got 25 degrees and that was just for a very short time. Like I said I'm almost 6'4" and never had a problem with sight lines over the bow on my express cruiser, which was 14,500 pounds when I weighed her after the repower in 1997. that was after being out of the water for almost 8 years during the redo. NO BS 41.8 mph on the Northstar GPS in Lake Worth and then out into the Ocean off of Palm Beach Shores to the Juno Pier and back. 3500 rpms was 35 mph, 3000 rpms was 30 mph 2500 rpms was 25 mph and she dropped off plane at 16 mph. Never hooked up a fuel burn meter but I filled her up 172 gallon FRP original tank and fished for 3 days and only burned 110 gallons for 125 miles of running t all speed. The chopper it got the faster she wanted to run into the slop. I don't care if nobody but you knows how these boats are supposed to run into a 3 to 4 chop, that's what they were designed for in 1958 by Ray Hunt Sr. If I ever get another one it's going to be an express cruiser and if I have to I'll change her out to flat shaft bangles with 2 sets of struts per side. Plus they will be gassers because I don't like the smell of diesel especially on an express boat. Only you and I and a select few know how they are supposed to run. Getting better but had a few set backs with ice and snow I now have a Bursa sac problem below the inner knee area, hurts like hell even with the pain pills.
Pete

Mack · Post by **Mack** » Sep 10th, '18, 12:53

A great refresher on the analysis of gas vs diesel!

502 (8.4L) sounds great but I am curious if anyone has repowered with 6.2 L using the "standard" shaft angle.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Sep 10th, '18, 13:54

Pete,
Give me a ring. I'll PM you my number.

Otherwise I urge you to consider this amazing boat...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1965/B ... 5a9n_ZFxPY Sadly the owner is older and is not in great health. He wants to move the boat. It is not just beautiful, but inspirational!

Or consider this one. Yes, its higher, but the owner is VERY well off, and wants out. Either boat will probably respond to any reasonable offer. Both are treasures.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/B ... 5a-Q_ZFxPY

Great seeing you saturday!

Dug

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 10th, '18, 15:52

Would love to chat about it Dug. I don't have enough cash in hand to make the deal happen just yet working on it as we speak, but if I do decide to sell and buy I think I'll want my boat sold first so I'm really in a position a good position to negotiate from.

Some of the things that are on the table, the family (and me) really like are the front windows. It's going to be a tough hurdle to overcome. Some things on the wish list is a transom livewell and in deck fish boxes (cabrera kit) and I'm not opposed to a Bahia or a sportfish, we are generally day boaters.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 10th, '18, 19:32

that is a fast gasser Pete has..... even in knots it's still fast ... light fuel @ 170gal... but dammmmmmm

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 10th, '18, 19:35

Dug wrote: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1965/B ... 5a9n_ZFxPY Sadly the owner is older and is not in great health. He wants to move the boat. It is not just beautiful, but inspirational!
Dug

This was the boat that none of us wanted the women to see...... Just fabulous.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 12th, '18, 08:32

Just going under the assumption that I would sell my boat and buy something else that is done.... I replaces the port block on the 454 a couple years ago. The starboard motor has over 3000 original hours and smokes a bit, but checks out, doesn't run hot and the compression is good. From a resale standpoint would it make sense to replace the starboard block? It's probably 5k all in...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '18, 09:32

I think gas motor 31 Bertrams will be lumped into three piles.

New gas motors

Old running gas motors

Non-running gas motors

I do not think you will see a huge price difference between the first two choices to justify replacing an older running gas motor for a newer gas motor.

Unless your doing a major upgrade that will give superior performance and economy, with engine bay facelift, new motors etc. Even then its still a gas Bertam and I do not see them selling much over a running gas Bertram.

If motor is not running well, moving boat down to a non- running boat...then yes I'd consider replacing.

Now if your doing it for yourself as your not comfy with older motor, or want to bump up to higher performance 454's that's a different story.

WAC · Post by **WAC** » Sep 12th, '18, 13:56

Pete, I have been following this discussion as mine is a gasser as well. She runs well, I have just spent a bunch of dough ensuring that, but they were rebuilt in 2004 and 2006 and have about 900 hours on each. They have not been well cared for so I am a bit nervous that issues will arise that will become costly. I struggle with the gas vs diesel thing as the cost gap is wide. I think I am finally coming to the conclusion that you can analyze it to death and crunch the numbers till your blue in the face but the one factor you cannot account for or put a number on is your own personal satisfaction.
I am seriously considering a complete gut and refinish in a couple years which is so non cost effective since I have already poured in a ton of dough since I bought her, but since I would do a lot of the work myself there is no way I could find another vessel of the same size and type that would be done to the level I am considering for the money I could do it for. Sure you could borrow someone else's trouble or find one that is done well and ponder all of the items you would have done differently, or you can do what makes you happy regardless of cost and pain. If new was an option that would be great but I don't have a spare half mil or more laying around...
Just my .02 as I am getting to the point of if I dig it then it's right for me. I keep leaning toward diesels for the increased range as we need it around here.

Mizerita · Post by **Mizerita** » Sep 13th, '18, 14:47

I was going to save this for my own post, but I've talked to several B31 owners who have put in the Hyundai Seasall 270s and love them. With gears they are under $50,000 for the pair. Common rail, quiet and fuel efficient. The two B31 owners I've talked to are showing 30 knot top end and good cruise numbers / efficiency. I had a chance to see them in person.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Sep 13th, '18, 15:05

The Hyundai importer here is a friend of mine. I also saw these engines at a boat show and they looked sharp.
However I would stay away from common rail engines. Depending of course on the quality of diesel you get, you may risk to have troubles if water is present in the fuel. I know, you know your diesel supplier well etc, but here on every island there are all types of fuel companies with all types of diesel, I think I’ll stay with my non electronic Yanmars although, as youre saying, the newer electronic Hyundais may be more efficient.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 13th, '18, 20:49

Yannis wrote:The Hyundai importer here is a friend of mine. I also saw these engines at a boat show and they looked sharp.
However I would stay away from common rail engines. Depending of course on the quality of diesel you get, you may risk to have troubles if water is present in the fuel. I know, you know your diesel supplier well etc, but here on every island there are all types of fuel companies with all types of diesel, I think I’ll stay with my non electronic Yanmars although, as youre saying, the newer electronic Hyundais may be more efficient.

Yannis

Fortunately for us here in the US normally have a pretty reliable source of fuel. Getting water from the pump is rare. It happens but rare. Sounds like those 270;s give the same performance numbers as the 270 Cummins recons I have in my boat. These are the old style mechanical engines.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Sep 13th, '18, 22:46

Tony,

I didn't mean to say that fueling stations here sell water instead of diesel. Although some few crooks always exist...but by word of mouth we learn to avoid them.
It’ s only that just because diesel has more transportation stages, e.g. from factory to fuel truck, to transferring boat, back to truck, into the island fueling station, back into truck to the island marina, then into your boat, all this entails a lot of condensation risks, hence some inevitable water...
And as rarely as this may happen, it’s like unemployment; a 5% rate of unemployment is very low, still, it is a 100% rate for the unemployed himself. And if you get water in a common rail engine you’re in for a throroughly entertaining journey back to home port...I would always prefer our type of good old mechanical engines over the newer all electronic ones, that’s all. The problem is that as time goes by, the mech engines are getting fewer so the choice is narrowing for the potential buyer. At least for engines over a certain horsepower level.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Sep 14th, '18, 09:01

WAC wrote:Pete, I have been following this discussion as mine is a gasser as well. She runs well, I have just spent a bunch of dough ensuring that, but they were rebuilt in 2004 and 2006 and have about 900 hours on each. They have not been well cared for so I am a bit nervous that issues will arise that will become costly. I struggle with the gas vs diesel thing as the cost gap is wide. I think I am finally coming to the conclusion that you can analyze it to death and crunch the numbers till your blue in the face but the one factor you cannot account for or put a number on is your own personal satisfaction.
I am seriously considering a complete gut and refinish in a couple years which is so non cost effective since I have already poured in a ton of dough since I bought her, but since I would do a lot of the work myself there is no way I could find another vessel of the same size and type that would be done to the level I am considering for the money I could do it for. Sure you could borrow someone else's trouble or find one that is done well and ponder all of the items you would have done differently, or you can do what makes you happy regardless of cost and pain. If new was an option that would be great but I don't have a spare half mil or more laying around...
Just my .02 as I am getting to the point of if I dig it then it's right for me. I keep leaning toward diesels for the increased range as we need it around here.

I'm with Wayne. I've crunched numbers, and have looked at a number of other boats--other B31s, 36 Hatts, B35s, and a few downeasts (34 Wilburs, 35 Bruno, 35 Nauset). Crows Nest is about where we want her to be, and done our way. She's real simple--no fresh water systems at all, and I'll probably f'glass over and take out the raw water system. Simple holding tank and regular head. No genny--shorepower only (and A/C of course). No half-tower, just a bimini, and no outriggers because she's a Chesapeake Bay boat. She has an ac/dc fridge that works great, but in retrospect, I should've replaced it with a Yeti and ice (melted ice is a really easy fix). I wanted a really simple B31. She's it. If your B31 is where you want her to be, or your tastes are a little less mainstream like mine (most B31s go offshore and have gennys, half-towers, outriggers, etc--I get it), stick with your boat and repower. Every boat we looked at needed varying amounts of work to make right, and they all had relatively complicated systems. I look at everything on a boat as something I'm going to have to fix at some point. Less stuff, less to fix. If you see a freshly repowered B31 out there that you think is just perfect, make it happen. It'll generally cost way more to do your own boat. But if your B31 is close to where you want it, keep her and repower.

So, we recently decided that if our 8.2 DDs go, we're repowering Crows Nest. My plan is to take my time and find decent Cummins 6bta RTOs (210/220 or 250/270), and have a reputable local diesel place (there is one here) go over the motors. I'll do the install myself, with help from my mechanic when I need it and copying the installs of the B31s on this site. We also decided to run the 8.2s until they don't. I can't get many parts for them, but they run fine. They'll run to 3150 rpms, but I run them at 2100 and 22 knts. Just perfect for me and they're loafing along. Unless a great deal on motors comes along, then who know.

I had 454s in the Anna E. (1969 B31 FBC). Great motors, and I knew how to work on them. She was very thirsty, and drank about 2x the fuel as Crows Nest. To make the converting to diesel numbers work, you'd have to burn a lot of gas. However, now that I have a diesel boat, I'm not going back. She rides a little better with the weight in her, and we don't hesitate to use her. With the 454s, a simple trip across the Bay for dinner was $100 in fuel. Now its around half that.

John

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Sep 14th, '18, 13:24

I have a pretty simple boat as well---over the years I keep taking things off.

Gas boat, 12-volt only, no dockside, no battery charger, no outriggers, no radar, bimini top, no fridge, fresh water tank, no holding tank -but never used the head---actually took out the stand-up head and put the head in the v-berth---personally never used it (owned my boat for 30 years +)--for the ladies only----

Regarding the battery charger, two large (for gas) batteries that I throw a charge on once a month when I am in the water---my batteries seem to last longer than my friends that are constantly charged-----

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 14th, '18, 13:28

Thanks John some really good thoughts there. I am absolutely making my boat simpler. Lights electronics and a saltwater wash down. I also have fresh water two sinks. No fridge no AC and no interest in a generator. Will wire in shore power and a inverter so I can have a couple AC outlets and a coffee pot. That’s it.

I’d trade in my teal deck for fish boxes and a live well. But I get by with a portable livewell and a big cooler. The half tower as is works well for me and eisenhlass enclosure. The cabin has has some slight updating I will work to make it a bit better but I don’t want or need a complete overhaul.

We’ve got a big bay here and I like to run the beach. It would be nice to do a couple tuna trips or a week in block island but it’s not a necessity.

I’m working on getting a quote on a 502 repower. Let’s see where that comes back, it would work for our lifestyle as it is now. The caviar is if I take the repower budget and add it to what I can sell my boat for it may just make sense to get a complete boat. Will just have to wait and see where it all lands.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Sep 14th, '18, 22:48

Peter

Before you make any big financial decisions, like any repower, go look at some used 31s. You may decide to sell your boat, or you may go back to your boat and decide to do whatever.

John

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 15th, '18, 15:58

hang in there Pete i will get you a pair of Cummins for 25grand-------2020

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 15th, '18, 22:52

Peter

What Bob said. That is why I asked earlier what a pair of big blocks new with transmissions would cost.

Assuming you will probably need to rebuild everything from the main bulkhead back like I had to, if the diesels with tranny goes for 35,000 or less (I think closer to 40) you might be surprised that the cost differential might start make sense.

If your kids become like Neil's son, that boat will be chasing Tuna more than you thought.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 16th, '18, 06:15

Thanks guys. I had a very nice conversation with Rick from Dickson’s Marine in Bayshore. He’s also going to keep his eyes open for RTOs as well. He’s done many B31 repowers from QSB 330s, 6BTAs and even has 383s. Surprisingly the 383s have good performance numbers but are more expensive then Reman Cummins. I believe ballpark the 6BT 220s are 18k and the QSB 330s 26k without gears. As Bob said nice Cummins 270 RTOs if you can find them from someone moving into QSBs could be 20k for a pair with gears.

Had the boat out again yesterday and the starboard motor continues to run hot and push out steam from the exhaust. We never seem to run at cruise speed for more then an hour thankfully as she gets a rest to cool back down. It may be hopeful to keep her running the remainder of this season and next but will be hopeful.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Sep 16th, '18, 07:02

What does your temperature gauge show for your starboard engine?

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 16th, '18, 07:05

old write up by pasco .. might still be relevant .. might not

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 16th, '18, 08:41

i am going to give you guys two sentences remember it.

A) gas motors have an ignition system that will plague you from the day you install till you tear your hair out.

B) gas motors need to circulate salt water thru the entire exhaust system, diesel mix salt water in the exhaust AFTER the exhaust manifold, turbo,

C) from the above analysis gas motors in a 31 Bertran is destined to self-destruct stop with the bull-s-it with usage long distance, short distance sounds like a bunch of women yapping "he said-she said"

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 16th, '18, 10:26

pschauss wrote:What does your temperature gauge show for your starboard engine?

Without looking at the gauge I’m guessing. Normal operating is 180-190? Maybe I’m up around 200, again I know exactly where the gauge should be at a quick glance not the exact #

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 16th, '18, 10:29

bob lico wrote:i am going to give you guys two sentences remember it.

A) gas motors have an ignition system that will plague you from the day you install till you tear your hair out.

B) gas motors need to circulate salt water thru the entire exhaust system, diesel mix salt water in the exhaust AFTER the exhaust manifold, turbo,

C) from the above analysis gas motors in a 31 Bertran is destined to self-destruct stop with the bull-s-it with usage long distance, short distance sounds like a bunch of women yapping "he said-she said"

Bob the guys at Dickson also talked about changing the shaft angle so the boat runs more bow proud and the water breaks around the pilasters. Sounds real familiar.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Sep 16th, '18, 10:36

Pete,
I'm sure this is a dumb question .. but have you shot the motor with a temp gauge to verify it's the motor and not the gauge? ...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 16th, '18, 14:13

pete you and i know you don`t go faster you go the same desired speed but you throttle back to get maximum fuel economy. dickson marine along with seaborn saw me with a cup of coffee on the dashboard in 3 to 4 footers.
the answer is easy enough the waves are breaking on the bottom midships if you are in the cabin you hear a slapping sound, wield till you realize what's going on. they ask me to explain i said "it takes more than a short skirt to make a woman attractive
"

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Sep 16th, '18, 18:51

bob lico wrote:i am going to give you guys two sentences remember it.

A) gas motors have an ignition system that will plague you from the day you install till you tear your hair out.

B) gas motors need to circulate salt water thru the entire exhaust system, diesel mix salt water in the exhaust AFTER the exhaust manifold, turbo,

C) from the above analysis gas motors in a 31 Bertran is destined to self-destruct stop with the bull-s-it with usage long distance, short distance sounds like a bunch of women yapping "he said-she said"

Bob-
I will stipulate that you have forgotten more about B31s than I will ever know.
I believe patronizing and hyperbole are much better suited to fishing reports and retelling sea states.
My experience here on bertram31 has always been an open exchange to help members find the right decision for them. I very much like it that way.
Apparently I have been very fortunate with my gas engines and I will remember to be more thankful from those two sentences going forward.
Sincerely,
Stephan

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 16th, '18, 19:32

bob lico wrote:i am going to give you guys two sentences remember it.

A) gas motors have an ignition system that will plague you from the day you install till you tear your hair out.

B) gas motors need to circulate salt water thru the entire exhaust system, diesel mix salt water in the exhaust AFTER the exhaust manifold, turbo,

C) from the above analysis gas motors in a 31 Bertran is destined to self-destruct stop with the bull-s-it with usage long distance, short distance sounds like a bunch of women yapping "he said-she said"

Bob-

Thousands of hours on my 440 gas engines. Ignition has never been a problem. It was annoying with dual points, but changed those out Week One with boat 24 years ago.
Yes, a yearly tune up of new wires, plugs, cap rotor...have had coils go bad.
My biggest issue was ethanol.

Gas motors Do Not need to circulate salt water through entire exhaust system. I grew up on a boat with 440's that had fresh water run through the engine on one circuit and the exhaust manifold on a seperate circuit. Salt water from both went into risers to mix.

A diesel boat to run 15 minutes to fishing grounds is a waste...dollars and sense wise. If it makes you happy, that is a different story. I know many a diesel boat stuck at the dock because of motor issues, they do not come without their own set of issues.

I have not been on many diesel boats that do not smell of diesel. Not talking exhaust fumes, that is another story onto itself. But diesel boats often smell of diesel fuel...personally I'm not a fan, but could get used to it for the benefits.
While diesel is safer as it doesn't explode, it does burn. Turbos run hot. I'd say 90% of the people I know with boats have gas boats. I can only think of 3 people out of all the gas boats that had a fire on board. Diesel boats...I know of 6 people that have had fires on diesel boats, two of those lost the boat.

I am a diesel fan, want to convert, but they are far from perfect too. They have a place as does gas.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 16th, '18, 19:57

Timmy

You should reach out for John Nardi. He has a pair of rebuilt Cats he is not going to install in his boat. He needed to back track on his restoration. I believe they are posted in the for sale section.