Which VHF

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Apr 2nd, '18, 21:28

This will be my first season with Water-Lou after 40 years with a 19' sail boat on the Great South Bay. What are the minimum features that I should look for in a VHF radio and which brands/ models should I look at? I am not expecting to go any considerable distance offshore, if that makes a difference.

Thanks,

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 3rd, '18, 06:49

Do you have a GPS, and if so, which one?

Many VHF radios are able to interface with a GPS and have an SOS function which will send your exact location over channel 16.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Apr 3rd, '18, 08:00

Peter,

Welcome, I never got to introduce myself. I have a 31 out of Babylon, hope to see you around. Replacing my VHF this year as well, my plan is to go with a dual station with the main unit in the cabin and the additional mic up on the bridge, I'm considering Garmin as I just put in 2 Garmin multi function screens.

Pete

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Apr 3rd, '18, 09:29

mike ohlstein wrote:Do you have a GPS, and if so, which one?

I don't have a GPS yet. For sailing on the bay I just relied on a paper chart and compass.

Pete,

Thanks for the welcome. We are in Great River. I have a slip for this summer across the river at Nicolls Point Marina in Oakdale. You may know our boat since her previous owner kept her at the Admiralty in Bay Shore.

The dual station unit sounds like a good idea since I have the Sport Fisherman model with controls in the cabin and the flying bridge.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 3rd, '18, 12:04

I have a run of the mill Standard Horizon radio...few if any frills.
With the money I may have saved going with less features I put towards buying a better antenna setup.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Apr 3rd, '18, 13:04

My impression is all the radios have many more features than I use.
I have a Garmin VHF 200 because it is NMEA 2000 and works with my chartplotter. As Pete describes, I have it installed in the cabin and a remote mic wired to the bridge.

There are newer models than the pictures above. These radios are about $350 and the remotes cost about $200 for a wired model and $400 for a wireless one.
I have had good luck for a few seasons with West Marine brand and Standard Horizon brands as well. There are basic radios available from these companies and Uniden for under $150.
Any installed radio will require an antenna and good power/grounding to be useful.
I also carry a hand-held VHF which I use to monitor Channel 16. I like the idea of a radio with an independent source of power. It may offend the more experienced members here and would not be my long-term preference but I do not see anything wrong with just going with a hand held unit for this season while you sort things out. I think it is very wise to use the boat a bit before making plans on how you will improve it.
Kind regards,
Stephan

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 3rd, '18, 13:26

Any way you slice it, and no matter where you are, a boat can sink in 30 seconds.

Safety first. Since you're starting from zero, it makes sense to do it once and do it right.

Get a GPS and a VHF that can communicate with each other. You can get a distress signal off in 5 seconds, and the coast guard will know where you are.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/27/nyre ... agers.html

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Apr 3rd, '18, 20:48

I agree with Mike's statement.

One of the most important features on the VHF is the "Distress" button.
Press it and everyone within range will receive the signal and the GPS Lat/Lon location, and the Coast Guard will be on you as quickly as possible.
I was in the boat Sunday and heard another boaters distress signal and coordinates showed up. It's quite loud and get's your attention. (This person had pushed it by mistake but it made me realize it works!)

We have very little dashboard space on these boats. If I were to do it again, I'd purchase one of the VHF's that has a remote mic with the radio module hidden below the dash or flybridge area. In FL the sun beats down on our LCD screens, and I recently did open heart surgery on it to replace the screen. I believe Garmin has one as well as ICOM like this.

I currently have the ICOM M5XX unit (a few years old) with the 2nd remote mic located at the lower helm. It's convenient for Intercom use with the family. (there is an Intercom mode)

My other "If I were to do it again" would be to have TWO VHF's with the hidden radio module and mics with the small screen. And if one of the radios could have the 2nd remote mic for the lower station, all the better. You might not feel you need a 2nd VHF for your environment.

But anyone going offshore in the ocean should most likely have two VHF's, two antennas, hooked up to two separate power sources. AIS service as well....and a handheld VHF and GPS for when you are floating in your life raft after the boat sinks.

I carry a SPOT tracking device as well. However, I'm probably moving along to the InReach device that allows two way texting via satellite. I'm bleeding this conversation into jump kits..that's a whole other topic and bag of goodies.

More info than you wanted I'm sure.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 3rd, '18, 21:02

I would stay with the big name radios.

I am partial to ICOM but Standard Horizon, and Garmin are top notch also.

The Antenna is important don't skimp on that one. Digital or a high end Shakespear.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Apr 3rd, '18, 23:27

I found that the Icom 504 with DSC is the best, It's got all the bells and whistles that you will ever need It's fairly expensive but well worth the money and It will last forever Also don't skimp on the antenna get a good Shakespeare at least a 9 DB with an extension mast for the side of the bridge. A stainless steel ratchet mount no cheapo plastic mounts or stand off hardware. The Icom will interface with a chart plotter. Another must is a good hand held portable VHF in a water proof case is a life saver when you need it.
Pete Fallon

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 4th, '18, 20:35

Pete Fallon wrote:I found that the Icom 504 with DSC is the best, It's got all the bells and whistles that you will ever need It's fairly expensive but well worth the money and It will last forever Also don't skimp on the antenna get a good Shakespeare at least a 9 DB with an extension mast for the side of the bridge. A stainless steel ratchet mount no cheapo plastic mounts or stand off hardware. The Icom will interface with a chart plotter. Another must is a good hand held portable VHF in a water proof case is a life saver when you need it.
Pete Fallon

Peter

On our 31's wouldn't a 9DB cause you to loose signals in a rough sea due to the roll? I was always told 6DB worked better for a boat of our size.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 4th, '18, 20:56

https://www.defender.com/rebates.jsp?tr ... f+The+Week

In case you want an ICOM defender is showing a rebate on the 506 until 4/30

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Apr 5th, '18, 11:49

Tony,

Ironically (with my recent VHF tinkering), I recently read a few forums on 6 DB vs. 9 DB.
My takeaway was that on paper and in theory the 6DB is less linear than the 9DB, therefore working on average better than the 9DB in a rolling sea.

However, there were plenty of guys on the thread with small low open fisherman boats stating that they have used both for many years and the 9DB was resoundingly better according to them.

I have a 6DB today and will most likely install a 2nd VHF with a 9DB.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 5th, '18, 21:08

Steve

My understanding the 6 would work better for us, but would be glad to hear how you make out with a 9 DB. I am replacing my GPS this year and might upgrade my ICOM to one that will be able to interface with AIS. Debating that one depending on what the GPS will do.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Apr 5th, '18, 23:10

I never had any problems with a 9 DB, I fished within 25 miles offshore and always picked up my Base Station that was 20 miles away. What ever works for you. it's your money. If your out in seas that create that much roll you should be out there.
Pete Fallon

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 6th, '18, 00:11

I have a 3 and a 9 on my boat, wired through an A/B switch. Sometimes the 9 is useless for close range. The 3 is usually useless for long range.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 6th, '18, 20:42

Pete Fallon wrote:I never had any problems with a 9 DB, I fished within 25 miles offshore and always picked up my Base Station that was 20 miles away. What ever works for you. it's your money. If your out in seas that create that much roll you should be out there.
Pete Fallon

Pete
What is too much roll for a 9DB. 3 Foot seas? I have run to the Hudson on a dead flat day, stayed overnight and fought 6 footers coming back next day. As they say happens that is why I say what is too much. Now that I am much older and wiser , I avoid if I can running in bad weather.

Mike,

Why is the 9DB useless in close? Does it step on everything so that you can not be understood?

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '18, 00:47

Tony, read this:

http://www.boat-project.com/tutorials/vhfant.htm

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 7th, '18, 10:39

Tony Meola wrote: Mike,

Why is the 9DB useless in close? Does it step on everything so that you can not be understood?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think of it in terms of a camera lens.

With a good camera lens, you can modify the aperture and the zoom. With an open aperture, everything is in focus, but there is little depth of field. With a narrow aperture, you can focus on any one thing (and everything else will be fuzzy) and there is a lot of depth of field. You can also zoom in on things. When you zoom in, it can become difficult to focus on things that are too close. When you zoom out, it's harder to focus on things that are far away.

If you think about the relationship between aperture and zoom, and then consider the relationship between antenna gain (zoom) and signal to noise ratio (aperture) it starts to make sense to (to me....).

A 9 db antenna is trying to focus on the signal that's 8 miles away, and can't make sense of the one that's 20 yards away. The 3 db antenna sees that one just fine, but the one that's 8 miles away is all pixelated.

At least that has been my experience. And I'm only referring to VHF. Transmissions in other bands act differently.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 7th, '18, 16:15

Don't forget antenna gain, a 3 dB antenna creates a larger signal pattern, but that pattern doesn’t travel as far, so it doesn’t leave the horizon as dramatically when the boat pitches.
For our 31, antenna should be 8', certainly less than half the length of the boat.
Having the antenna mounted high such as top of a sailboat mast will swing more giving less distance.

People often buy expensive radios and put on cheap antennas reducing effectiveness.

Match the gain of the antenna along with radio.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 7th, '18, 18:28

i have all three 3db,6db, and 9db . after 18 years i now have 18' antenna with 9db for 98% of talk and handheld to open bridge, talk to a boat alongside mine. converted 6db for fusion radio works great. change all electronic to Furuno this year and have ICOM IC-502 all the bells and whistles free if you have a 31 Bertram on this site and pick up. i also have brand new Icom command mike brand new in box with instructions to use as a remote mike.will do everything but the distress signal which must come from the master unit.make a donation to the site and when Bruce notified me he has loot i will ship.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 7th, '18, 22:47

We have always had a 6DB, 8Ft digital mounted on ours and have never had an issue pushing a signal long distances. I was just always under the impression that given the roll that is possible, 9 DB could get iffy, and from what I have read here that is possible given Mike's scenario and the article Yannis posted.

Given everything stated, I think I would run a 6 and a 9. I am not sure that 3 DB is worth it. The 6 would seem to cover all scenarios with the 9 giving you the ability to really reach out a little further, but could limit the ability for someone to pick up your full transmission if you dead in the water and the boat has a roll to her.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 8th, '18, 00:54

Now imagine an antenna mounted up high and a heavy roll. The high gain antenna is going to miss the near field.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 8th, '18, 09:33

i am not sure what you people mean by "roll" i do not know what that is unless shark fishing and cannot put out front drogue due to the nature of mako instant strike so other than that 2% of use never experienced roll even in Gail warnings.just stay on the bridge with engines running keeping the bow into the wind (easy with single lever controls on pod) while the fares are fishing

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 8th, '18, 21:14

If you use the VHF to chat, then yes, you can avoid the roll.

If you use it in moments of distress, though, chances are your engines will be dead.
In which case your boat is all over the place...rolling may even not be a correct term to describe the shit youre in.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 8th, '18, 21:37

Just found an interesting article in a February edition of On The Water about antennas. Given Mikes post above showing the radius put out at the different gains, the article shows them as follows:

3DB 80 degree cone of transmission
6DB 35 Degree cone of Transmission
9DB 20 Degree cone of Transmission

For Height reference as far as transmit and receive distance they show they show the following:

Transmit height and receive Antenna Height
Receive Height
5 FT 10 Ft 25Ft 100 FT 250 Ft
Transmit Height
5FT 5Miles 7 Miles 9 Miles 15 Miles 23 Miles
10FT 9 Miles 10 Miles 11 Miles 18 Miles 25 Miles
30Ft 10 Miles 12 Miles 13 Miles 20 Miles 28 Miles
60FT 12 Miles 14 Miles 15 Miles 21 Miles 30 Miles

If you assume that on the Fly Bridge Model with an 8 Foot Antenna the Antenna if mounted on the bridge base you probably have a height of about 15 feet which probably gives you a transmit and receive range in general of about 15 miles.

Back in the day when we had Marine Operators I used to be able to talk to the Toms River operator from 40 miles offshore with a 6DB 8 foot antenna mounted on the bridge base. In a 5 foot they some times would break up on me. At the time their Antenna was over 100 Feet high so they had no problem hearing us.

Also based on the article the conclusion I reached that if you run two antennas, the large 9DB which is about 18 Ft long and a 6DB would be the two antennas to run together.

Bob

I would thing that even keeping the bow of the boat into the seas, in a 5 to 6 foot sea you would still be going up and down the waves with the antenna angle changing all of the time, limiting the reception and transmission of the 9 DB since the cone of angle is so narrow.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 9th, '18, 01:02

In the article I posted above, it says that it is not recomended to mount a vhf antenna next to metal items.
Therefore, it would have been ok for when Bertram mounted those antennae on the flybridge side, but now that most boats have towers, ladders, bimini frames etc., it would be necessary to move the antenna up and over all these obstructions.
No wonder I have bad reception since my antenna is right next to my bimini frame !

Also, where can one find what type antenna they have (3,6,9 dB)? Is it written on the antenna?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 9th, '18, 15:02

then there is the good news and bad news on the subject. the good news is my antenna is 18' long with SS. rachet mount at the base and SS. release mount is about 4 feet above that mount so the top of the antenna is about 28' above water. i talk to fellow captains out of inlet 18 miles away all the time. the bad news is this is a copper internal antenna at $ 500.00 and top quality SS mounts another $ 100.00 so i can fold ANTENNA to go under the railroad bridge at Shinnecock canal. the 6 db does not have to fold it clears bridge. strictly off the record, i put my faith and that of my crew in NYPD air rescue.my numbers are in the commander's phone and while the Coastie`s are calling around trying to find out what i had for breakfast that blue/white chopper is overhead with certified diver and much better electronics to pick up Eperb instantly they are in air 24 hours a day while the coast guard is restricted by finance not to fly in NY/NJ area unless verified.YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GOOGLE THIS INFO !!!!!!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 9th, '18, 18:48

command mike is spoken for ICOM 502 is still up for grabs.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 9th, '18, 20:22

Yannis

Here in the US the majority of the 3 DB are around 3 ft in height. The standard 6 DB is 8 foot in height and the 9 DB is normally around 18 ft in Height. Now, the only other way is to know who the manufacture is and the model number and look it up on line.

I have never seen the DB stamped or printed on the antenna.

I actually have a spot already set up to take a second antenna. The Stainless mount is just above the Gunnel and a stand off just over the window frame. Back in the day there was a 20 foot CB antenna there when some boats used CB. We ran two antennas at that time, one for CB and one for VHF. Have always used Digetal Antennas.

www.digitalantenna.com/vhfantennas.html

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 10th, '18, 01:28

Thank you Tony,

Mine is around 8 ft, or so, so it's probably a 6 dB.
I'll check if I have any papers from the PO.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 10th, '18, 09:09

While we are on the topic, when I mounted my antenna, the angle of the cabin overhang was such that it was between two notches on my SS mount. An easy solution was a horseshoe wedge from the hardware store. It is a grey durable plastic that is easy to cut to the shape of you mount. It is cheap and beats the hell out of trying to fab one yourself!

https://north40.com/horseshoe-wedge-pad ... soQAvD_BwE

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 10th, '18, 16:24

Rawleigh had to buy that expensive 316SS model that is screw into the very top of the bridge aluminum rail. this clamp has two thumb screws to remove and swing down.Antenna comes out of the saddle and i use the ratchet clamp to lower the antenna to gunnels.the Rupp tournament riggers are easy a push button releases riggers and they fold down. the center rigger taps the underside of the bridge .you cannot win them all !!!!!!!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 10th, '18, 16:58

Tony i know it sounds crazy and when i try to explain they give me a blank stare. last year i sat in the cabin exhausted after two hours at the wheel so my son took over i heard the weird sound coming from under the last two feet of the cabin. WHAT THE HELL than i realize that is the sound of the top of the waves slapping the keel were the boat makes contact from wave to wave at 30 knots plus or minus two feet depending on wave height.keep in mind you are going to catch a beating or worse get to launch from the bridge if you pull back those levers and stuff the bow real hard.the pilot has to turn the wheel 90 degrees to slow down in the trough.(you were warned to be real smart to slow it down.so the boat stays level at all times if you want to use VHF or you could take hours more coming back and be with all the 50mph center consoles struggling at 16 knots or less some of them cannot even get there boat on plane in the distance between the waves.very important to change course on the radar to run close at 28 knots so they see Phoenix up on top and give their ultimate respect as there triple 350 hp Yamaha's get blown away by a 45-year-old has been Bertram.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Apr 10th, '18, 17:56

While reading the most recent posts in this string I glanced at my TV which was showing a repeat of "Deadliest Catch" program. At that moment It was showing the Coast Guard searching for the lost crab fishing vessel "Destination" which was lost with apparently all hands.

An omen? Coincidence? Just scary.

incoming · Post by **incoming** » Apr 11th, '18, 11:54

I'll add a "plug" for a floating handheld VHF with GPS. You can grab them for $100-$200, and they check a lot of boxes. As long as you have it on you, if your boat sinks in a hurry you will not only be able to get out a distress call even after you are in the water, you can continue to communicate with would-be rescuers and provide updates of your position. If you have some sort of massive electrical problem on the boat and you lose your plotter and/or VHF, you've got the handheld as a backup for both. Granted the range isn't great but more often than not even if you can't reach the USCG you can at least reach a near by boat. Mine has rechargeable batteries but can also be operated off a bunch of AA's, so I keep the radio charged and a bunch of fresh AA's on the boat as well. All cheap insurance.

Frankly it's so convenient even though I've got three fixed radios on the boat (2 on the bridge, 1 in the cabin), I often end up using the handheld as my primary radio. I also can carry it with me on the docks if I want to pay attention to what's going on.

I absolutely think a fixed VHF with a good antenna is a very important piece of safety equipment, but a floating handheld with built in GPS seems like a cheap investment in a really handy piece of equipment as well.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 11th, '18, 20:36

Bob

I understand exactly what you are saying as to how your boat runs, and I am assuming you are saying that while running the boat is always basically running flat and that means the 9DB transmits on a flat plane.

But to me the real issue is, if you are ever dead in the water for what ever reason, if you have any type of sea the antenna will no be subject to the rolling and or pitching motion of the boat, causing some of the transmission to be possibly lost due to the angle during the transmission.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 11th, '18, 21:25

the handheld is 3' away from me at all times in the outside pocket of ACR ditch bag in between my feet under my seat on the bridge.i use the floatable Icom with spare batteries in ditch bag for the portable GPS. the bag goes with me to the life raft i just hope the God i can get myself and crew into life raft before she goes under that's the main reason for compartmentation of the hull at cabin bulkhead.
tony there is also a condition running on top and not paying attention to throttle occasionally you get caught in midair and the props. sing (come out of water) not as bad as stuffing it but nut a good idea.