Fuel Tank Quote Feedback Please

[JohnV8r]

Guys,

I have three distinct quotes for the fuel tank replacement for Shambala. I'm looking for some feedback please.

Quote #1: Fuel tank built out of .190" aluminum (grade not specified) with Coal Tar applied. $2270. This is the thinnest material quoted.

Quote #2: Fuel tank built out of .250" 5052 aluminum (USA made aluminum) with Epoxy Coat. $2560. This was the most detailed quote and specified [1] gas tank 235 gal, [7] baffles, [1] ground tab,[1] fill [1] vent, [3] pick up tubes, [1] sender mounting plate, [4] lifting lugs, pressure test to 5.lb air, mat: 1/4” [.250] thick alum. 5052 grade, epoxy coat ext. of tank.

Quote #3: Fuel tank built out of .250" aluminum with Powder Coat paint applied to exterior. Tank would have tabs with mounted rubber pieces on bottom. This manufacturer was not in favor of using the foam mounting technique as he said it would create an opportunity for water to contact the tank between the tank sides and foam that he felt would cause corrosion. Instead, he creates air between the sides and bottom by including mounting tabs.

I'm interested in some feedback. #2 and #3 both said coat tar was a mess to deal with, which is why they did not quote coal tar. I'm not sure what the practical difference is between .190" and .250", but intuitively thicker sounds better than thinner. My intention is to use Capt Patrick's foam install technique. I'm not sure if powder coating is appropriate for that install or not.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking to pull the trigger on an order tomorrow.

Thanks,

JohnV8r

[ford351c594]

Slightly over $10-12 a gallon is pretty fair as $10 a gallon is pretty much the standard. Coal tar is used because is and epoxy that prevents prolonged water vs fuel on opposite sides of the aluminium which causes corrosion and our tanks are in the bilge. Every quote you have has some good info. Check out this site... http://marinesurvey.com/yacht/fueltank.htm It gives the in and outs of why tanks are mounted the way they are.

If one of the quotes is from speedytanks.com also know as Atlantic Coastal Welding, they are very good.

Also, 3/16 5052 is usually what is used for a fuel tank. So 1/4 inch or .250 is just a bit thicker which I would assume is only stronger and heavier, maybe you have a special shape?

I am going threw the same process right now. so I have gathered quite a bit of info on this in the last 2 weeks. :)

I think it is RDS in Florida is very good as well.

If you want to coal tar it yourself... a gallon kit is about $75.

[JohnV8r]

Amazing who you mentioned.

Quote #1 is RDS. Believe it or not, a boatyard I trust here in Northern Cal recommended RDS. Only potential issue there is the current 3 week lead time and questions I had over wall thickness. However, you addressed the 3/16" vs 1/4" question I had.

Quote #2 is SpeedyTanks.com. I was very impressed with the detail in their quote. Their lead time is 5 days.

Quote #3 is a fabricator in San Diego that a boatyard in Newport Beach I know uses. I am not sure about the powder coating for corrosion resistance part there.

[Tony Meola]

John

Have them include a return port just in case diesel is ever a thought. Actually you probably had one on the old glass tank. Mine is in the same plate as the vent line. Also think about a line for a future gen set.

I would think powder coated aluminum should be ok. Maybe Carl has some experience with powder coated aluminum.

[Carl]

I coated my tank with Coal Tar epoxy. It is a mess to deal with and smells like Cr@p! I have a splotch on a pair of shorts I wore when applying...its been years with many many washes cycles and still can't get that stuff off of 'em.


I was offered Powder Coating by tank maker...but at that time I was seeing lots of issues with Powder Coating. Since then I learned many of the reasons why. First, everyone was powder coating as it was cheap and easy business to start...but guys didn't know what they were doing. They'd coat alum the same way they coated steel, quick wash, coat n bake. Alum requires a chemical prep to adhere. Parts also needed more then a quick wash. When customer found the right coaters 90% of the problems cleared up. After that the biggest issues were end consumer related...Gouges, nicks, scraps, surface worn away, they drilled and screwed into surface or decided not to use provided washers at install, allowing bolt heads to cut into paint surface. Seems anything that compromised surface integrity of paint allowed corrosion to start...and then it traveled.

I do not know how well the Coal tar is holding up on my boat...where I can see n touch it looks like the day I put in. Underneath, in the corners...??? It's been about 10 years, hope I never get to find out.

[JohnV8r]

Carl,

Did you do the foam install per Capt Patrick's building tips or does your tank have air around it?

Thanks,

JohnV8r

[JohnV8r]

Just placed the order with Speedytanks.com aka Atlantic Coastal Fabricating. At the end of the day, I was impressed with their customer service and proactive questioning to ensure the tank is done right the first time.

[Carl]

At first I went with leaving air around it with some tabbing on top to secure.

I incorporated UHMW strips to underside that sat on hull (AKA-glued plastic strips to tank).

But then I started to feel uneasy with tank just sitting on a couple strips. I could not see/verify all strips were evenly supporting tank. I knew tank was tight in place, didn't rock...but but kept thinking that tank filled is alot of weight "if only sitting on some high spots". So after I was in water a couple weeks I decided to foam in place for even support on the hull...


IF you go that route...
I highly recommend removing the deck to do this and NOT talking with friends when playing with foam. While I could reach all areas with deck in place...the time from mixing two liquids till it kicks off, starts expanding, hardening is only a few seconds. I had quite a few cups of very large, foam mushroom heads laying on the dock when I was done. Looked like the Smurf mushroom patch. Some I mixed a couple seconds too long, others I couldn't get to hatch opening fast enough after mixing...got one cup stuck under the deck when I decided it was too late to pour then tried to pull out.


If all approved tanks, then going with your instincts is a good move.

[mike ohlstein]

Just as an aside, any time that I foam anything, I foam the inside of a plastic bag. I don't know why foaming a fuel tank would be any different......and if anyone knows, please chime in.

But what I would do is stuff a 3 mil garbage bag under the tank and then pour the foam into the bag. That way the foam is contained, and it isn't stuck to anything but the bag.

[Carl]

Just as an aside, any time that I foam anything, I foam the inside of a plastic bag. I don't know why foaming a fuel tank would be any different......and if anyone knows, please chime in.

But what I would do is stuff a 3 mil garbage bag under the tank and then pour the foam into the bag. That way the foam is contained, and it isn't stuck to anything but the bag.

Mike---where was that tidbit of info 10 years ago???


Only down side I can think of doing it that way is water can get trapped between bag and tank.
A direct pour, like I did, provided foam is dry and has adhered to the tank (it should, as the Foam stuck to Everything Else) the tank will not be sitting with water/moisture up against it.
Then again, that is what the Coal Tar Epoxy was for...a barrier.

Bagged foam is definitely a neat way to ship stuff of odd shape with some mass.

[Tony Meola]

Just as an aside, any time that I foam anything, I foam the inside of a plastic bag. I don't know why foaming a fuel tank would be any different......and if anyone knows, please chime in.

But what I would do is stuff a 3 mil garbage bag under the tank and then pour the foam into the bag. That way the foam is contained, and it isn't stuck to anything but the bag.

Mike

Sealed Air (my former employer) actually made set ups just for that. Think those grey bags with foam in them you get with electronic equipment. The customer would by the bags then the two part chemicals that would be under pressure and injected into the bag. Bingo foam in a bag, conforms to any shape.

[Tony Meola]

At first I went with leaving air around it with some tabbing on top to secure.

I incorporated UHMW strips to underside that sat on hull (AKA-glued plastic strips to tank).

But then I started to feel uneasy with tank just sitting on a couple strips. I could not see/verify all strips were evenly supporting tank. I knew tank was tight in place, didn't rock...but but kept thinking that tank filled is alot of weight "if only sitting on some high spots". So after I was in water a couple weeks I decided to foam in place for even support on the hull...


IF you go that route...
I highly recommend removing the deck to do this and NOT talking with friends when playing with foam. While I could reach all areas with deck in place...the time from mixing two liquids till it kicks off, starts expanding, hardening is only a few seconds. I had quite a few cups of very large, foam mushroom heads laying on the dock when I was done. Looked like the Smurf mushroom patch. Some I mixed a couple seconds too long, others I couldn't get to hatch opening fast enough after mixing...got one cup stuck under the deck when I decided it was too late to pour then tried to pull out.


If all approved tanks, then going with your instincts is a good move.

LOL

A live reality show at the marina. I bet your friends were drinking beer and laughing while you did this.

[Corey Mason]

Where I'm at here in pensacola, fl the going rate is upwards of $15 a gallon.

A while back I thought I would have a good welder friend of mine weld up a tank for me. I'm going to end up having a professional tank builder do it though.

At the technical school I'm at we have welding shop right next to us. One of my marine students asked the shop to weld him up a 25gallon tank. The instructor of the class welded it. He has pressure checked it and sent it back about 5 times now. Everytime there were about 6-9 different leaks. This is a professional who is now an instructor. He even had about 5 tries to fix all the holes, and it STILL leaks. Sounds a lot easier than it really is. I'll have a professional do it.

Guess this didn't really help your question, but it was sorta related.

[Bruce]

Welding is an art and it's the hardest position in the shop I have trouble keeping filled.
Both the guys I have now are good. Not only are their welds nice looking and structural, but they seal.
We do a lot of custom ac installs requiring aluminum tubing welding, past welders could weld them looking good but upon testing the welds would leak. Once the leaks were repaired the welds would look gross.

90% of the welders we have had and tested for a job opening had leaks in their aluminum.

[Carl]

90% of the welders we have had and tested for a job opening had leaks in their aluminum.

Its real easy to lay a good looking bead "over" alum...



I have lost track of the "Certified TIG Welders" coming out of welding/vocational schools that have applied for a TIG welding position and after 10-15 minutes they come over to me and tell me they can't figure out how to get the wire to feed. My hint that it is a TIG machine, not a MIG was lost on them.

[John F.]

John-

Sorry, I just saw this. I had the tank for the Anna E. made by Patriot in NJ. They were great. I had 3 pick-ups, one fill, one vent (Capt. Pat recommended 2), and 3 returns. I had the returns and the extra pick-up in case I ever wanted to go diesel and add a genny (the Anna E. had 454s). I don't know, but its worth asking whether the newer 496s require fuel returns.

I had the tank epoxy coated, and had two tabs on the front of the tank welded on so that I could through bolt to the forward bulkhead. It also had lifting tabs. The tank was about 230 gallons, and that was about as tight as I wanted it in there.

I did not foam mine in. None of the tank fabricators I talked to recommended that. The foam invariably gets wet, and the moisture is trapped against the tank, leading to corrosion. Patriot supplied big neoprene blocks. They were about 2 inches thick and maybe 6" by 8". They were attached with 5200 to the tank. I used ratcheting straps around the tank to get them really tight (no air gaps). The tank was then set into the hull, and the neoprene blocks allowed for a nice mounting surface and for air circulation around the tank. I had fabricated and epoxied in a flat surface to separate the bilge from the bottom of the tank. A couple of folks I talked to that hadn't done that and didn't have any problems. I don't know if I'd bother with that again. If you're foaming, you'll have to.

The tank worked fine, and I sold the boat a few years later. If I were doing it again, I'd mount the tank the same way. It worked fine, and it doesn't allow for the trapping of moisture against the tank. I'm sure either way works--they're are plenty of tanks installed using foam.

John

Here's a link to a pic. of my tank install

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... iot#p39345

I searched my old posts and it looks like the closed cell neoprene blocks were 3/4" by 4" by 6"

[ford351c594]

Hey john hope you see this. Just read your post about installing your tanks and it was great. Is there magic to the floor supports or is there know measurements that work? 31 vs 28 as well if there is know measurements. I was going to build new ones my self when the new tank goes in out of Mahogany, but I think I will use coosa instead.

[John F.]

I used 5/4" mahogany. No magic to it. I replicated what was in there, and just used mahogany that was a little thicker and a little stouter. I thought about coosa, but I'd have to order it and drive to get it and its not cheap (around here). There's a wood place 15 minutes away that stocks all sorts of hardwoods, including mahogany. And they'll plane it and cut it to whatever I want for cheap. I did coat it with epoxy. What was in there lasted close to 40 years and was still serviceable. If you have any questions, pm me and we can swap phone #s

[Waytooslow]

I just finished a boat that had 31 years on a foamed uncoated aluminum tank that honesty could have been re-used but it didn't seem prudent. I also was changing the size of the tank. So I also built a shelf for the new tank to sit on slightly elevated above the bilge with drilled holes in the bottom so trapped water could drain to the bilge. Then I set the tank on rubber strips. With 31 years on the last tank the coal tar treatment didn't seem like it was worth it. The foam also didn't seem like a good idea because of the potential to trap moisture. My $0.02 YMMV Todd

[Pete Fallon]

JohnV 8r, Everyone has an opinion about foaming the tank in place. What ever route you take just make sure that there are heavy duty rubber strips for the tank to sit on and if you do foam in make sure that you use a 4 pound density foam, the 2 pound stuff is cheaper and will act like a sponge trapping moisture against the tank. The 4 pound stuff is more expensive but well worth it, When you finish the foaming process make sure you coat the top of the exposed foam with the coal tar epoxy to keep the surface water out. I did mine in 1995 with 4 pound foam and did not coat the exposed foam. I picked a section of the foam out to check if there was any water getting into the exposed foam after 10 years in the boat and there was none even in the area that had a small puddle all the time near the aft edge of the tank. MAKE SURE its 4 Pound foam.
Pete

[Bob Patton]

John, I just looked at Alex Whitaker's site and he has three fiberglass tanks for sale as well as everything else. I don't know what's going on down there but it appears as though he is selling out. He has 2 31's for sale and all his molds. This may be a way to go, although the bigger tanks are more expensive than your quotes, the 170 is the same and its is all ready done. As you know, it's a 5 hour shot to his place, so for the price of gas you could have a new tank next week. Just a thought.
Bob Patton

[Bob Patton]

John, upon rereading your post I see you already placed an order. Sorry about late heads up. All those molds sound interesting though.
Bob Patton

[Navatech]

John, I just looked at Alex Whitaker's site and he has three fiberglass tanks for sale as well as everything else. I don't know what's going on down there but it appears as though he is selling out.

Yep... Sure looks like he's withdrawing from the B31 scene... Maybe just retiring?!... Or going to bigger/better things?!...

[JohnV8r]

Bob,

I just checked it out. Yes, the molds do sound interesting. I'm sad to see Alex getting out of the business. He has been a great West Coast option for parts.

I think this go round I'm committed to aluminum for the fuel tank regardless of price. I don't want to ever have an ethanol problem again. "Ethanol Resistant" fiberglass tanks sound great. However, if there's a problem in year 5, it's my problem; especially with Alex getting out of the business. I know I don't have that risk with aluminum.

Additionally, John & Tricia at Speedytanks.com/Atlantic Coastal Fabricating have been such a pleasure to work with and have provided such great feedback on options that I would feel unethical pulling the plug at this point. I'm going to end up with a 260 gallon aluminum tank delivered to CA for a very competitive price from a company that obviously cares about their final product. No other alternative was as detailed in their questions or quote.

[Waytooslow]

I just finished a boat that had 31 years on a foamed uncoated aluminum tank that honesty could have been re-used but it didn't seem prudent. I also was changing the size of the tank. So I also built a shelf for the new tank to sit on slightly elevated above the bilge with drilled holes in the bottom so trapped water could drain to the bilge. Then I set the tank on rubber strips. With 31 years on the last tank the coal tar treatment didn't seem like it was worth it. The foam also didn't seem like a good idea because of the potential to trap moisture. My $0.02 YMMV Todd

Forgot to add: Bought a rubber sheet at Grainers and then cut it into strips with aviation sheet metal shears.