New B31 project in Europe

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Feb 5th, '17, 18:30

Yup Bob you have a fast 31 Bertram must be the 20th time I've seen those pics but......I'm sure Phoenix would love tabs.

You must be confusing having trim tabs with using trim tabs, chimera was slower then you for sure but a 30 knot cruise was always achievable and the boat tracked great even on pilot down a quartering sea. Never an issue

I'm never gonna buy your trim tabs are bad on a B31 voodoo. Simply calling BS

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 5th, '17, 20:33

after testing with 504 cummins,yanmars,and 6bta-m3 cummins i removed the ss tabs . there free if anybody wants them.trim tabs no but submarine style bow planes up near bow i would think would help coming in bad inlet light on fuel.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 6th, '17, 08:22

My boat being a gasser with 440's is a different animal, my top speeds are your cruising speeds.

I ran without tabs for a good 14 years or so and was happy, boat didn't need'em, aside from family trips with people walking side to side. A nice "move it over" in slop or I just ran lop-sided if it was a flat day...easier then yelling back every 20 minutes as they forgot then having wife remind me to "Be Nice". It was when I upped the tank size I felt a need to install tabs; I made tank base sit deeper into hull, brought back a couple inches then lengthened it. Deeper and bringing back allowed more weight to be concentrated in the back when running light...I really felt that when trying to climb out of the hole as well as low cruising speeds, had to give alot more throttle to climb out of hole and needed to cruise faster so bow did not ride proud. In slop, I had the issue of falling off plane at slower speeds. Full tank it ran fine..aside from the extra weight along with my empty pocket to fill tank.

Back to the point I was going to make...

Soon as I put tabs on the arse end came up...even with tabs fully retracted.
Fully retracted tabs, I'll get on plane a little sooner, then at cruising speed I have a noticeably flatter wake. Not a huge difference compared to adding some more tab...but definitely when retracted they are doing something more then just going along for a ride.

I should also mention I set my tabs so when fully retracted they come up a couple degrees beyond the bottom surface of hull.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 15th, '17, 10:54

Hi,
I am well into what has turned out to be a FULL refit of the boat. Fully stripped out and no original parts kept. Basically building a new boat from bare hull and flybridge shell. Massive job to do in 4 months, but we're going for it.
I am trying to keep ahead with planning of parts required, and am now thinking about a hard top.
There are no companies in Europe who would have a design for this on the shelf, so I am hoping some of you guys would be able to help with supplying some ideas or drawings for a hard top and supports. I will be designing from a blank page. I figure some of you must have had these made before. A good picture showing your design would also help.

Any help will be great fully received.

David

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 15th, '17, 11:12

David,

What a guy did here was that he zeroed in on a hard top, then asked permission and just took all measurements and copy/pasted it.
Arent there any other 31s with a hard top in your area?

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 15th, '17, 11:56

Unfortunately not. They're not too common in Europe.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 15th, '17, 12:10

I wouldn't be too sure.
Only in my yard there are 2, and I know of another 2 owned by good friends.
I will take a look on Friday, when I'll go down, to see if any of those 2 have a hard top, and take pics for you.
Oh wait, I think I already have one already loaded on photobucket, let me take a look...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 15th, '17, 12:18

Here is one, its not what you're looking for, but you may get some ideas. I'll look for the other one on Friday.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 15th, '17, 14:40

Thanks Yannis. None in South of France with hard tops, as far as I know.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 16th, '17, 11:20

Sometimes you can't believe your luck. I have found this one for sale no more than 20 miles away!!!
It is off a B31 and has a Raymarine radar, spotlight and stratoglass with it. Price is not crazy either.
[URL=http://s58.photobucket.com/user/do ... .jpg[/img]/url]

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Feb 16th, '17, 11:42

David Davidson wrote:Sometimes you can't believe your luck. I have found this one for sale no more than 20 miles away!!!
It is off a B31 and has a Raymarine radar, spotlight and stratoglass with it. Price is not crazy either.

Good for you... Let's hope your luck keeps up... Just out of curiosity, what does "Price is not crazy either" mean?!... In Euros is fine...

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 17th, '17, 01:32

EUR 5k

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Feb 17th, '17, 02:02

David Davidson wrote:EUR 5k

That's not a crazy cheap find by US standards but it's not really that over priced either (assuming the aluminum is in good shape)... One thing about the radar, did it come with the display?!... If not then you'll have to get that separately... And, if it's an older, non digital, version you won't be able to use one of the newer Raymarine MFD's... And not even one of the W (Wide) versions... You'll have to find one of the older A, C or E MFD's...

You could always flog off the radar on eBay and use the money towards a newer system...

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 19th, '17, 17:14

It's around a third of what a new one would cost to make around here. Getting one shipped from elsewhere would be even more, so I consider this a very good deal.
The radar will be going on eBay, and the lights will go too. The frame will be stripped and polished, and the top modified for my needs, and sprayed. It'll be as good as new when I am finished with it.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Feb 20th, '17, 02:35

David Davidson wrote:It's around a third of what a new one would cost to make around here. Getting one shipped from elsewhere would be even more, so I consider this a very good deal.

And rightly so...

David Davidson wrote:The radar will be going on eBay, and the lights will go too.

What model is that radar?!... Also, if the lights are functional I would keep them...

David Davidson wrote:The frame will be stripped and polished, and the top modified for my needs, and sprayed. It'll be as good as new when I am finished with it.

Stripped?!... Is it painted now?!... If it isn't and the aluminum is in good shape I don't think I would paint it... Also, powder coating, though more expensive, will give you a better and longer lasting finish...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 20th, '17, 02:41

David,

For what it's worth, I asked my welder to give me an indicative cost for a hard top for my B28. I believe that the B28 bridge is slightly bigger than the 31.
Anyway, he told me that it would definitely cost more than € 3,000..., but this is just indicative as he should take measurements first and also discuss the client's requirements.
On top, I asked a nearby fiberglass guy who, last year, made a nice curved glass top for another B28 that he put on an existing metal frame, and he said that it cost a bit more than € 1,000.
If you add up and allow for a good margin, this thing could set you back by roughly € 5k new.
Therefore, and since the prices in France shouldn't be all that different (unless I'm completely off), it would pay to ask around more than one technicians for a "devis", or estimate.
Especially since those southern people sometimes charge according to the client's "looks" and not on an established cost structure.
Of course, as you said, you found your hard top and you're happy about it. It just doesn't hurt to know the rest of the story.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 20th, '17, 11:25

That is a fair price. Don't ask what the new one on Alchemy cost...

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Feb 21st, '17, 15:54

That is a very fair price -- when I redid Tailhook I had significantly more money into my hardtop, and that was 12 years ago. I seem to recall close to $15K USD

Tom

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 22nd, '17, 00:38

It goes without saying that the cost I quoted above does not include all those goodies that you guys use, such as, rocket holders, rod holders, or however else you call them, ladders up on the sides etc. These are purely fishing additions that we don't use (after I removed all rod holders from my boat, I kept one behind the fb bench to ...dry my broom or put the hook pole).
I'm pretty sure my welder understood a plain rectangular sturdy frame and nothing more. Still, however, even without the above additions, the price seems good.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Feb 24th, '17, 17:37

Hard top inspected and deal done at EUR 4K.
Bargain.
Raymarine radar is a 418d digital model, so may keep it for now.
Frame is in great shape, no corrosion. Fibreglass top needs painting.
Yannis, there is no way in the world I could get a top like this for less than 15k around here, believe me. Côte d'Azur prices are not the same as Greece prices. It would be $12-15k in the US also.
Now I just need to get it transported - not so easy at 3m wide!

Just managed to find a Coosa supplier in Germany, so things are looking up. Fibreglass work finished today. Paintwork starts Monday.
Yanmars arrive on Tuesday, my High Tide shipment arrives next week sometime, and all the electrical bits arrived yesterday. Looks like I'm going to be busy in March.

I want it finished by end of April and am still optimistic!!

El Dorado · Post by **El Dorado** » Feb 25th, '17, 08:46

It's not that bad. Four ratchet straps and it tracked really well for the 65 mile trip home.

Tried to lift it off the bridge by hand with two kids and found out the hard way that mine is really unbalanced. Almost flipped out of the cockpit onto the wife's minivan. Finished the job using the forklift without any problems.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 2nd, '17, 17:22

Hi,
Offered up the new 4 cyl Yanmars today.
They were so far aft that it wasn't right. I suspect the previous owner had shorter shafts made for the Cummins V504s.
Does this sound right?
Looks like I either need 26 cm longer shafts, or a big spacer.
What length shafts should I need for 4LHAs in a 31?

Any info helpful.
Thanks,
David.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 5th, '17, 08:51

What length shafts do you guys have?
Looks like I need 86 inch to put the 4 cyl Yannies where they need to sit.
Does that sound about right?

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 5th, '17, 23:22

Dave

I have the Cummins and if memory serves me correctly that is close.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 6th, '17, 00:17

I have those engines. I'll try to get a shaft length tomorrow. I know that they are 1.5" A22.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 11th, '17, 07:44

Have 85" 1 3/8 A22 shafts on order with 2" wide flexible couplings.

Steering rams - originally had two, one each rudder, but is that necessary? I have a tie bar, so one cylinder should do right?
Anything I should know?

David.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 11th, '17, 22:39

I have only one ram on my steering. You should be good.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Mar 12th, '17, 04:02

David Davidson wrote:Steering rams - originally had two, one each rudder, but is that necessary? I have a tie bar, so one cylinder should do right?
Anything I should know?

And:

Tony Meola wrote:I have only one ram on my steering. You should be good.

All rams are not created equal!... To begin with, some rams are dual sided (dual acting) whereas others are single sided (single acting)... Anything that can be done with one ram (single or dual acting) can be done with two rams (single or dual acting) and visa versa... The only thing that would change would be the capacity of the rams... Single acting rams are rare (manufacturing cost differences are almost trivial) ... And on boats our size 2 dual acting rams are not common due to cost issues...

On my Berty it's a single dual acting ram... But I have seen another one with 2 smaller dual acting rams... It was a retrofit after they lost steering one time due to the ram seals breaking... Each ram has its own shutoff valves... And the boat can steer on only one ram... Albeit with more effort...

David, if you're absolutely sure your boat had two rams and that the current ram is one of them, your options are as follows:

1) Work harder at steering the boat...
2) Find a second matching ram...
3) Find a replacement ram that's big enough to take the job of two smaller ones...

Your best bet is to check with the original manufacturer of the steering system...

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 12th, '17, 12:50

Thanks for the input.
The existing system was definitely two dual acting rams.
My problem is that I am fitting High Tide rudders and tiller arms. The new tiller travel is longer, so I need longer ram travel.

I'll go with one larger ram.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Mar 12th, '17, 15:36

David Davidson wrote:Thanks for the input.
The existing system was definitely two dual acting rams.
My problem is that I am fitting High Tide rudders and tiller arms. The new tiller travel is longer, so I need longer ram travel.

I'll go with one larger ram.

It also depends on the rudders... If the new rudders are more "balanced" (i.e. more area of the rudder is forward of the rudder stem axis) you may not need a second or a larger ram... Either way, check with the helm manufacturer... If you stay with your current helm and increase the total volume of the ram(s) you'll need more turns of the steering wheel to move the rudders the same given amount...

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 13th, '17, 15:34

Copied, thanks.
I am renewing all, so am matching a new helm pump to the new ram.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 13th, '17, 21:36

My steering is from Sea Star. Boat is tucked away for the winter, but I will see if I can find the paper work and get the model number for you. Need a few days.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 21st, '17, 14:10

David Davidson wrote:Thanks for the input.
The existing system was definitely two dual acting rams.
My problem is that I am fitting High Tide rudders and tiller arms. The new tiller travel is longer, so I need longer ram travel.

I'll go with one larger ram.

Dave

I found the order for my ram. It is a Sea Star 10.2 cu cylinder. The part Number from Teleflex back in 2008 was:

HC 5314 Cylinder SS BA150-&ATM.

Hope that helps.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 21st, '17, 15:10

Thanks Tony. Useful to compare, however with in/lbs, ft/lbs, Nm, Kgm and every other way of describing torque, it takes some effort to compare!!
I have found a Vetus MTC125 ram with an HTP42 helm pump which matches my setup well. It's not been easy to get this sorted, even with talking to the "experts" at the companies selling the equipment. They all ask for different boat criteria and dimensions and then all come up with different answers.

Project coming on slooowly.
Still to do:
Engine install
Generator install
Steering gear install
Paintwork
Making new deck
Installing windows
Full rewrire and elec equipment install
New interior

All to be done by end of May!!
Frightening!
David

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 21st, '17, 23:09

Dave

As an FYI I have the Cummins 270, with Capt. Pats larger rudders and spinning a 20X23 4 blade prop. I have no issues spinning the wheel under power.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Mar 24th, '18, 08:56

Ok, so I’m a year behind the original schedule, but I’m nearly there.
From my list a year ago:
Engine install - done (new Yanmar 240s)
Generator install - done (new Whisper Power 3.5kw)
Steering gear install - done (new everything with large rudders)
Paintwork - done (Awlcraft 2000 Ice blue hull, Matterhorn tops)
New deck - done, Coosa core with new tank under it, 9 hatches in it, and Flexiteak on it.
Installing windows - done (glassed in front)
Full rewrire and elec equipment install - underway
New interior - underway

I’ll be moving her out of the shed in one month, radar arch and bimini to fit, then covers, cushions and finishing detail. Sea trials early May. Pics to follow at that point.
90% done myself
It’s been a journey, which isn’t quite over yet!!
Blood, sweat and tears, and a big smoking hole where my bank account used to be.

Other than the shell and some re-chromed badges, it’ll be a totally new boat. Can’t wait now.

David.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Aug 15th, '18, 09:50

Finally got “Bulldog” finished. Another B31 totally renewed and good for another 40 years.
What started as a 4 month project took 20 months, but now she is what I wanted.
28 knots WOT with 75% tanks and bimini enclosure on. I’m happy with that on Yanmar 240s.

Currently in U.K. where no one knows what it is!!!

She’ll be heading down to the Mediterranean in October (being shipped) and then to Caribbean maybe the year after for some fishing. No fishing gear on her until then.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/1uc9cc0n8/

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » Aug 15th, '18, 11:44

Lookin good nice job best of luck with her good to see another one all cleaned up. Pretty work!!

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 15th, '18, 13:51

Nice!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 15th, '18, 14:32

Very pretty!!!

cariedl · Post by **cariedl** » Aug 15th, '18, 15:10

David - congratulations, Bulldog looks great.

I am considering the Flexiteak option this winter and would love to see some additional shots of the deck and your opinion of it thus far. I love the look of teak, but with 3 little ones the idea and little to no time a low maintenance look alike option seems like a good one.

Well done, now enjoy her.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 15th, '18, 22:34

David

Nice Job. She looks great.

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Aug 16th, '18, 13:45

Cariedl,
The Flexiteak has been good so far, but it’s early days. Looks great, and no one knows it’s not teak.
It does still get quite hot under foot in strong sunshine compared to teak, even though this is their new, improved material.
It’s definitely easier to maintain than teak.

Here’s some pics I have on file. I’ll try to get some close ups next time I’m at the boat.
https://postimg.cc/gallery/17lzpson8/

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 19th, '18, 12:29

Beautiful B31. Really clean. Congratulations.

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Aug 19th, '18, 16:27

A beauty!!
Are the covering boards teak or Flexiteek?

David Davidson · Post by **David Davidson** » Aug 20th, '18, 02:20

All Flexiteak.
They make 20mm thick planks for things like the covering boards

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 20th, '18, 20:56

You’re saying that flexiteek, even this newer version of it, gets hot.
Real teak gets hot too, very hot sometimes.

Do you think that flexiteek would be a good idea in the Mediterranean summer sun, or will it turn the boat’s cabin into an oven?

Thanks.