You have 454's and it's time to re-power: what option do you choose?
That's our situation and I could use some information and opinion. We have tired 454's and I'm weighing my options for re-power as early as this coming winter. I've posed a similar question to the board before and there was a feeling not to repower, but to buy another 31 instead... but I don't want to do that- I like our boat! And, I want to work toward getting it into the type of shape that I want, which means that everything will eventually be replaced so that I know the history of every component.
With that in mind- I could use some advice on power packages to consider. We use the boat on weekends and occasionally during the week; we'll hope to take 1 or 2 week long vacations per year. I value reliability above all else, but I don't have an unlimited budget- 50-70k (need a new fuel tank, deck, may as well do rudders and beef up strut pad as long as we're in there)
I'm really intrigued by diesel, but a) I'm not sure I can do that with my budget b) I'm not sure I NEED diesel because we don't put 300-500 hrs/yr on the boat c) this article on David Pascoe's site makes a compelling case for sticking with gas: http://yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm
I've considered the Crusader 6.0L but found a thread here indicating that option would provide insufficient torque. What gas options should we consider? What diesel options should we consider?
Repower Options
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
Repower Options
Max
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Tony Meola
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Re: Repower Options
Max
I put the 270 Cummins Remans in mine. Love them. But your budget might be low. I am told you can buy next size up in Cummins remans cheaper than the 270's. I purchased mine in 2008 (how time flies) and engines and Transmissions were 38. I am told that package is quite a bit more know and the next size up would come in much lower. The issue with going bigger, if you only put 100 hrs a season on them is the turbo. On the 270's the Trubo is fresh water cooled. Larger and it is salt water which gives you another set of issues and maintenance.
Diesels mean bigger shafts and while you are it, be prepared for the unexpected repairs you find.
That being said, some of the guys claim the new big blocks are pretty efficient. Not as much as the Diesels but might be worth a look see.
One must is the bigger rudders. Capt. Pats rudders are sweat. I can run on one engine and turn the boat. Never could do that with the originals.
I put the 270 Cummins Remans in mine. Love them. But your budget might be low. I am told you can buy next size up in Cummins remans cheaper than the 270's. I purchased mine in 2008 (how time flies) and engines and Transmissions were 38. I am told that package is quite a bit more know and the next size up would come in much lower. The issue with going bigger, if you only put 100 hrs a season on them is the turbo. On the 270's the Trubo is fresh water cooled. Larger and it is salt water which gives you another set of issues and maintenance.
Diesels mean bigger shafts and while you are it, be prepared for the unexpected repairs you find.
That being said, some of the guys claim the new big blocks are pretty efficient. Not as much as the Diesels but might be worth a look see.
One must is the bigger rudders. Capt. Pats rudders are sweat. I can run on one engine and turn the boat. Never could do that with the originals.
1975 FBC BERG1467-315
Re: Repower Options
I also have cummins 270s in mine. I truly do love them and they are easy to work on and parts are cheap. I think if I ever repower again, I'll go with 300's or 330's I'm heavy so I cruise at 20 knots and top out at 24 knots loaded. I had a Volvo in my last boat ( maintanice nightmare) and a gas marine power in my boat before that. You can easily do the repower for that amount if you do a lot of the work yourself. I paid 30g for a Used set of 270s with about 150 hours on them, (engines, gears, struts and props) there are good deals if you take your time looking. I splashed on Jan 16 2016 after a 4 1/2 year build and just turned 400 hours. They run and sound great. The safety and pease of mind when the family is on the boat is a huge factor. Plus it sounds like your going to keep your 31 for a long time. The investment will be well worth it in 15-20 years. The re sale on a diesel is way greater.
I'll tell a little story of last trip of why I thank god I have diesels. We were steaming out to the tuna grounds about 100 mile run. We cruise at about 9 knots through the night to conserve fuel and the safety factor if we ever hit something. About 3 am my 2nd captain wakes me up for wheel watch. I settle in to my comfy captains chair and start staring into the black of night. About 20 min in I get a quick odor of diesel then it goes away. I quickly open the engine hatches and check the bilge and engines. Nothing to be found. I go back to watch and an hour later I get another odor of diesel. Again I jump up and check the engine rooms. Starboard is good next the port. This time I see 1/2 of diesel in the bottom of the bilge. I shut the engines down and wake up my 2nd and start looking. Nothing ever hose is dry the filters look good nothing around the injectors. Where the heck is it coming from. I proceed to clean up the diesel and get everything nice and clean. As I'm leaning over the engine I have my 2nd start it. FOUND IT!!! The engine fuel filter had the smallest pinhole in it (like someone took a clothes pin and made a hole the diesel was misting out in a extreamly fine mist then running into the bilge. Why the filter failed I'll never know. It had been on for 150 hours. The point is if I had gas motors and the same failure with such a fine mist there is almost a certain possibility of an exspolsion or fire. So if you have a ability to repower to diesel do it. Joe
I'll tell a little story of last trip of why I thank god I have diesels. We were steaming out to the tuna grounds about 100 mile run. We cruise at about 9 knots through the night to conserve fuel and the safety factor if we ever hit something. About 3 am my 2nd captain wakes me up for wheel watch. I settle in to my comfy captains chair and start staring into the black of night. About 20 min in I get a quick odor of diesel then it goes away. I quickly open the engine hatches and check the bilge and engines. Nothing to be found. I go back to watch and an hour later I get another odor of diesel. Again I jump up and check the engine rooms. Starboard is good next the port. This time I see 1/2 of diesel in the bottom of the bilge. I shut the engines down and wake up my 2nd and start looking. Nothing ever hose is dry the filters look good nothing around the injectors. Where the heck is it coming from. I proceed to clean up the diesel and get everything nice and clean. As I'm leaning over the engine I have my 2nd start it. FOUND IT!!! The engine fuel filter had the smallest pinhole in it (like someone took a clothes pin and made a hole the diesel was misting out in a extreamly fine mist then running into the bilge. Why the filter failed I'll never know. It had been on for 150 hours. The point is if I had gas motors and the same failure with such a fine mist there is almost a certain possibility of an exspolsion or fire. So if you have a ability to repower to diesel do it. Joe
4 1/2 years to build, Slashed Sept 16, 2016. 2860 hours and counting.
Re: Repower Options
I have a B28 with 250 Yanmars. If the boat were gas, I would not have bought it.
I read Pascoe's article. Convincing. And by someone who knows his sh2t.
However, and despite what he says about the fire (let alone explosion) risks that have been minimal etc, what Joe has just shown is a reason to sit back and think...
As a matter of principle I do not enter a gas inboard craft - with shaft or I/O - even if Miss Universe is expecting me on board.
I read Pascoe's article. Convincing. And by someone who knows his sh2t.
However, and despite what he says about the fire (let alone explosion) risks that have been minimal etc, what Joe has just shown is a reason to sit back and think...
As a matter of principle I do not enter a gas inboard craft - with shaft or I/O - even if Miss Universe is expecting me on board.
1973 B28 FBC/2007 4LHA STP's - "Phantom Duck" - Hull "BER 00794 1172"
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Navatech
Re: Repower Options
David Pascoe DOES make a convincing case to stick with gas engines... And for your size boat gas is an option as you can get the required HP from gas engines... Having said that, HP is one metric for evaluating an engine's power... The other significant metric is torque... The fact that if you go with diesels you will need to get thicker shafts should tell you something... Diesel is also orders of magnitude safer on a boat then gas... Straight diesels (i.e. non-electronic) are also simpler and therefore more reliable then gas engines... There are reasons why commercial boats go with diesel power...
What you haven't said is how many hours per year you actually use your boat...
Personally, my background is as a marine engineer (glorified grease monkey) in naval and maritime settings... I therefore lean towards diesel engines... But, budget, usage, and personal preferences also do have their place in the decision...
What you haven't said is how many hours per year you actually use your boat...
Personally, my background is as a marine engineer (glorified grease monkey) in naval and maritime settings... I therefore lean towards diesel engines... But, budget, usage, and personal preferences also do have their place in the decision...
Re: Repower Options
Here's my 2 cents, and yeah, its a little contradictory at the end. My first B31--the Anna E.--had 454 gassers. They were older carb'd 454s. Dirt simple, cheap parts, and they ran and ran. The trick is in the rebuild. I wanted to find a good rebuild shop for the long blocks. I had heard a number of stories about failed rebuilt long blocks from the major rebuilders. If you have a good shop nearby (I like speed shops--those guys know motors), you can have your 454s rebuilt for cheap, and have motors that are still really easy to work on and reliable. If you go with new small-blocks, like the 6.2, they're a bit more complicated, and more expensive. They're supposed to be relatively fuel efficient, and there's a guy somewhere around here that I've heard put the 6.2s in his B31 and really likes them.
From what I've read, the gas/diesel safety thing is overblown (pun intended). There was an article somewhere I read that had stats. for pleasure boats lost, and the number of diesel and gas boats that burn to the waterline was pretty close. From what I remember, diesel boats primarily went up because of overheated turbos. I personally feel that diesel boats are probably safer, but gas boats don't just go boom--something bad, like poor maintenance or failing to properly vent after fueling, causes the boom.
My current B31--Crows Nest--has 8.2 Detroit Diesels. She's faster than my gasser was at cruise. At 2200 rpms and 22 knts, the motors are loafing. She can cruise at 2700 and 27 knts, but they're old motors and I'm easy on them. As I remember, my 454s were at about 3200 and 22 knts., and that was max. cruise.
Crows Nest burns about half the fuel that the Anna E. did. It takes a long time to justify a repower based on fuel savings. I really don't think it can be done unless you canyon run. I really don't think you can justify a diesel repower.
That being said, I don't think you can rationally justify owning most boats. But we do. So repower with what you want. I loved my 454s, but even with the above comments, I'll never go back to a gasser. I just really like my diesels. With the gassers, fuel costs were always on my mind--the 454s were very thirsty. With the diesels, I just go. Again, she really does burn about 1/2 the fuel.
If I have to repower Crows Nest, I plan on getting Cummins at 210/220 hp. If I have to repower, and before I choose a motor, I plan on hitting somebody on this board up for a ride in a B31 with those motors to be sure. The 210/220s are relatively cheap, supposed to be the easiest to maintain, and you can stay at 1 3/8" shafts, and use 4" exhausts. That saves a lot of money in a repower. As I remember from stuff I've read here, with those motors in a B31 you can get a 20 knt cruise or 22 knts if you're light. That's enough for me.
Good luck. Lots of good advice on this board from guys who've been through it (I haven't).
From what I've read, the gas/diesel safety thing is overblown (pun intended). There was an article somewhere I read that had stats. for pleasure boats lost, and the number of diesel and gas boats that burn to the waterline was pretty close. From what I remember, diesel boats primarily went up because of overheated turbos. I personally feel that diesel boats are probably safer, but gas boats don't just go boom--something bad, like poor maintenance or failing to properly vent after fueling, causes the boom.
My current B31--Crows Nest--has 8.2 Detroit Diesels. She's faster than my gasser was at cruise. At 2200 rpms and 22 knts, the motors are loafing. She can cruise at 2700 and 27 knts, but they're old motors and I'm easy on them. As I remember, my 454s were at about 3200 and 22 knts., and that was max. cruise.
Crows Nest burns about half the fuel that the Anna E. did. It takes a long time to justify a repower based on fuel savings. I really don't think it can be done unless you canyon run. I really don't think you can justify a diesel repower.
That being said, I don't think you can rationally justify owning most boats. But we do. So repower with what you want. I loved my 454s, but even with the above comments, I'll never go back to a gasser. I just really like my diesels. With the gassers, fuel costs were always on my mind--the 454s were very thirsty. With the diesels, I just go. Again, she really does burn about 1/2 the fuel.
If I have to repower Crows Nest, I plan on getting Cummins at 210/220 hp. If I have to repower, and before I choose a motor, I plan on hitting somebody on this board up for a ride in a B31 with those motors to be sure. The 210/220s are relatively cheap, supposed to be the easiest to maintain, and you can stay at 1 3/8" shafts, and use 4" exhausts. That saves a lot of money in a repower. As I remember from stuff I've read here, with those motors in a B31 you can get a 20 knt cruise or 22 knts if you're light. That's enough for me.
Good luck. Lots of good advice on this board from guys who've been through it (I haven't).
1968 B20 Moppie - Hull # 201-937
1969 B31 FBC - Hull # 315-881 (sold)
1977 B31 FBC - Hull # BERG1652M77J (sold)
1969 B31 FBC - Hull # 315-881 (sold)
1977 B31 FBC - Hull # BERG1652M77J (sold)
Re: Repower Options
Fair enough.
I should add that if someone goes gas, they probably have to make sure that their boat is "spark free".
Which is exactly the opposite with mine, where most of my friends smoke, cigarettes and cigars and... other goodies, and when they also drink it happens that a cigarette lands on the deck without even anybody noticing, I have a propane cooker that works a lot - breakfasts, pans and casseroles and grills and you name it are daily occurrences, and as of next year I will have a propane water heater too, with an open flame...
As you can understand I am the definition of NON GAS.
With 600 liters of gas onboard one could never live like this! Irrespective of torque, horsepower and other costs...
I should add that if someone goes gas, they probably have to make sure that their boat is "spark free".
Which is exactly the opposite with mine, where most of my friends smoke, cigarettes and cigars and... other goodies, and when they also drink it happens that a cigarette lands on the deck without even anybody noticing, I have a propane cooker that works a lot - breakfasts, pans and casseroles and grills and you name it are daily occurrences, and as of next year I will have a propane water heater too, with an open flame...
As you can understand I am the definition of NON GAS.
With 600 liters of gas onboard one could never live like this! Irrespective of torque, horsepower and other costs...
1973 B28 FBC/2007 4LHA STP's - "Phantom Duck" - Hull "BER 00794 1172"
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Navatech
Re: Repower Options
FWIW, back in the day when the Israeli navy deployed gas powered PT boats the regulation was no smoking within a 100 yards of the boats...Yannis wrote:I should add that if someone goes gas, they probably have to make sure that their boat is "spark free".
Re: Repower Options
I have a 28 with Mercruiser 350 mpi (fuel injection) 2003 and I personally rebuild it. This motors are cheap to repair and maintain. It cruise @3200 rpm 22 knots. If you don't use a lot your boat on long cruises is better be on gas the maintenance is cheap.
B28 1982 with 2003 Mercruiser 350 mpi
Re: Repower Options
For all the nervous Nellies out there after 46 years of being around boats, traveling on them, living on them, working on them the over whelming majority of fires I came across were on diesel boats.
Can't tell ya all how many bilges I pumped gas out of when the dumb ass owners mistook the rod holder for the fuel fill. Somewhere someone has me on film at the Sailfish gas docks pumping 35 gallons of gas out of a bilge prolly hoping I'd ignite.
That all being said if one sticks with diesels in the 210 hp range you can avoid the running gear and exhaust up grades to save money.
Look at used running take outs.
Choices can be, cummins, perkins, deere, lehman, sabre, DD, Lister, cat,
Can't tell ya all how many bilges I pumped gas out of when the dumb ass owners mistook the rod holder for the fuel fill. Somewhere someone has me on film at the Sailfish gas docks pumping 35 gallons of gas out of a bilge prolly hoping I'd ignite.
That all being said if one sticks with diesels in the 210 hp range you can avoid the running gear and exhaust up grades to save money.
Look at used running take outs.
Choices can be, cummins, perkins, deere, lehman, sabre, DD, Lister, cat,
Re: Repower Options
Being a fire captain in an area with a large harbor I have been on 6 boat Fires (in the water) in 19 years and many more in dry dock. 3 were diesel boats 3 were gas boats. Two of the diesels were electrical related, the other was an over heated exhaust that caught the intallation on fire prior to burning the boat. The 3 gas fires were all fuel related. The worst was 12 people in a day cruiser with 2 fatalities. The exspolsion blew everybody in the water. I will say that all 3 gas boat owners shouldn't of owned boats and didn't take proper action prior to operation of there vessel.
The crazy thing is when I was 13 I was on a (diesel).charter boat with my father that burned. We were rescued by another charter boat before needing to ditch into the water.
Joe
The crazy thing is when I was 13 I was on a (diesel).charter boat with my father that burned. We were rescued by another charter boat before needing to ditch into the water.
Joe
4 1/2 years to build, Slashed Sept 16, 2016. 2860 hours and counting.
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scot
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Re: Repower Options
When I disassembled my 25 I discovered there had been a small fire under the fuel tank, in the bilge. Not any real damage. I assumed a small amount of gas ignited, burned and then went out. Blackened the surface of a small section of the glass. I doubt the PO ever even knew it happened! They didn't know how lucky they were. The fire was directly under a fabricated aluminum 80+ gallon GAS tank. :-O
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
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Tony Meola
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Re: Repower Options
To Joes comments.
I am running light, not sure how heavy Joe E is but I do not have a tower or hard top. I cruise just shy of 25 knots.
In reard to the fuel filter leak, must be a Cummins thing, same thing happened to me. Pin hole in the filter spraying fuel. Very strange.
I am running light, not sure how heavy Joe E is but I do not have a tower or hard top. I cruise just shy of 25 knots.
In reard to the fuel filter leak, must be a Cummins thing, same thing happened to me. Pin hole in the filter spraying fuel. Very strange.
1975 FBC BERG1467-315
Re: Repower Options
All great advice but for your budget, I would strongly suggest selling your existing boat and buying a 31 Bertram that is already converted to diesel.
I think that you would get more for your money by a long shot. $70k can buy a very nice diesel 31 Bertram and the $20k you get for your boat can go into projects and personalizing the new boat.
From a dollars, time and sense perspective, I think it is more logical to sell yours and buy one already done.
Example:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/bod/5492370026.html
I think that you would get more for your money by a long shot. $70k can buy a very nice diesel 31 Bertram and the $20k you get for your boat can go into projects and personalizing the new boat.
From a dollars, time and sense perspective, I think it is more logical to sell yours and buy one already done.
Example:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/bod/5492370026.html
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PeterPalmieri
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- Location: Babylon, NY
Re: Repower Options
I've got 454s in my 31 and I replaced one of the motors last year total cost was around $6000, I will likely replace the other motor in a few years.
The first couple of years I had my 31 I dreamed of a diesel conversion, not anymore. Quiet, cheap, easy to maintain and like you I'm not doing trips that I'm limited by fuel consumption nor do I have 70k burning a hole in my pocket. You really need to asses your needs, plenty of reasons to have diesels for the canyon fisherman and long haul traveler, or as a want if your pockets are deep, not so much if you are a local boater. I had also considered selling mine to buy a better one but regardless of her age and condition she's part of the family, I don't own any 31 I love the one I have.
The first couple of years I had my 31 I dreamed of a diesel conversion, not anymore. Quiet, cheap, easy to maintain and like you I'm not doing trips that I'm limited by fuel consumption nor do I have 70k burning a hole in my pocket. You really need to asses your needs, plenty of reasons to have diesels for the canyon fisherman and long haul traveler, or as a want if your pockets are deep, not so much if you are a local boater. I had also considered selling mine to buy a better one but regardless of her age and condition she's part of the family, I don't own any 31 I love the one I have.
1969 31 Bertram FBC "East Wind" hull #315939
Re: Repower Options
captbone wrote:All great advice but for your budget, I would strongly suggest selling your existing boat and buying a 31 Bertram that is already converted to diesel.
I think that you would get more for your money by a long shot. $70k can buy a very nice diesel 31 Bertram and the $20k you get for your boat can go into projects and personalizing the new boat.
From a dollars, time and sense perspective, I think it is more logical to sell yours and buy one already done.
Example:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/bod/5492370026.html
^this.
Give Charlie Johnson a shout. His 4lha powered 31 I believe is up for sale. http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12271
Re: Repower Options
hahahahah love it !Bruce wrote:nervous Nellies
1973 B28 FBC/2007 4LHA STP's - "Phantom Duck" - Hull "BER 00794 1172"
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bertram 20
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Re: Repower Options
i would go with the mercruiser 383s 370HP carbureted and more torque than the 454 and less weight than the 454 a boat that I work on (not a Bertram)a searay he took out a big block and did a 383 and he loves it he gained fuel mileage less weight and he absolutely loves the engine and the boat performs better than it did. my 2 cents
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Tony Meola
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Re: Repower Options
Actually the 31 rides better with more weight in her, as long as it is in the right place. More weight with diesels is not an issue. With gas, it will have an impact.bertram 20 wrote:i would go with the mercruiser 383s 370HP carbureted and more torque than the 454 and less weight than the 454 a boat that I work on (not a Bertram)a searay he took out a big block and did a 383 and he loves it he gained fuel mileage less weight and he absolutely loves the engine and the boat performs better than it did. my 2 cents
1975 FBC BERG1467-315
Re: Repower Options
Thanks for all the input, guys. For the time being our 454's are running and I plan to keep them that way. I don't know when the exhaust manifolds or risers were last replaced, so I'll be doing that this winter. Right now I"m leaning toward rebuilt 454's. Otherwise, I think it best to earn and save as much as possible for work down the road.
My old man just spent the last week refinishing some teak gunwale boards and I took two days to do some waxing & general cleaning and tinkering, so she's lookin and feelin' prettier than she has in some time.
My old man just spent the last week refinishing some teak gunwale boards and I took two days to do some waxing & general cleaning and tinkering, so she's lookin and feelin' prettier than she has in some time.
Max
Re: Repower Options
Unless salt water cooled your manifolds should last a good long time, risers on the other hand need to be replaced every few years...
If planning to keep the 454's for a good long time (and you can if kept up with) have a little pile of money burning a hole in the pocket. Maybe consider going with a set of Marine Manifolds (Verdi Street in Long Island) copper risers that last years and years longer then the cast iron ones. If and when you do spring a leak down the road or decide to have tested, they can be repaired for short change. No affiliation, just a happy customer who has referred others to them and they were even happier then me.
As to boat riding better with more weight...I'd say it runs different. When heavy, its Tank busting thru, 3208 Cats, tanks topped and full gear is the heaviest 31 I have been on, it was just point and go... My 440 gas cruiser when light on fuel just pops out of the water and I can cut back throttles as she just skims over the light slop. In bigger seas being light its nice to have that extra power to weight when climbing over the hill as compared to going out with tanks topped, bait and chum piled high on the deck. But that's also a gas to diesel thing...diesel don't loose rpm's going up the hill.
If planning to keep the 454's for a good long time (and you can if kept up with) have a little pile of money burning a hole in the pocket. Maybe consider going with a set of Marine Manifolds (Verdi Street in Long Island) copper risers that last years and years longer then the cast iron ones. If and when you do spring a leak down the road or decide to have tested, they can be repaired for short change. No affiliation, just a happy customer who has referred others to them and they were even happier then me.
As to boat riding better with more weight...I'd say it runs different. When heavy, its Tank busting thru, 3208 Cats, tanks topped and full gear is the heaviest 31 I have been on, it was just point and go... My 440 gas cruiser when light on fuel just pops out of the water and I can cut back throttles as she just skims over the light slop. In bigger seas being light its nice to have that extra power to weight when climbing over the hill as compared to going out with tanks topped, bait and chum piled high on the deck. But that's also a gas to diesel thing...diesel don't loose rpm's going up the hill.
Last edited by Carl on Jun 15th, '16, 05:28, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Repower Options
"...diesel don't loose rpm's going up the hill." thats it carl now you said it-------torque,torque ridiculous comparison !
capt.bob lico
bero13010473
bero13010473
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Tony Meola
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Re: Repower Options
Diesels and the Capt.s Rudders, you turn a Chevy into a Porsche.bob lico wrote:"...diesel don't loose rpm's going up the hill." thats it carl now you said it-------torque,torque ridiculous comparison !
The difference is unbelievable. I feel the 31 hits it's sweet running spot on the hull at about 24 to 25 knots. She seems to ride totally different at that speed and a little above. Too fast then she can get iffy, unless you make sure she balances out right.
1975 FBC BERG1467-315
Re: Repower Options
I have a pair of running takeout B270 Cummins with MG 502's gears for sale.
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