B38 might be a good deal?

waggles02673 · Post by **waggles02673** » May 5th, '16, 12:39

Just stumbled across this and figured I would post it as there was some conversation on a thread I started on 37 Bertram's about going with a repowered 38 Bertram instead.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Be ... yuEoY-cE2w

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 5th, '16, 22:02

I would say it is a deal if it is as nice as the pictures look. For that price, something has to be hidden. I would have thought double the price.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 5th, '16, 22:24

Tony Meola wrote:I would say it is a deal if it is as nice as the pictures look. For that price, something has to be hidden. I would have thought double the price.

IF she's as nice as she shows it IS a deal... But remember, as Uncle Vic (allegedly) used to say, "the value is in the iron" (or words to that effect)... If her engines are knackered or approaching that stage it's definitely not a deal...

Having said that, people have many reasons for selling boats... And some don't have the time or patience to wait out getting "full value" so they're prepared to take a hit... There's no way of knowing either way... That's why we have surveyors... NEVER buy a boat without a survey!!!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » May 6th, '16, 06:29

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » May 6th, '16, 17:22

That 38 is a great boat ,I fished on one many times back in the 80's. Those 3208 engines have been blown up to the max. hp. They do not mention the engine hours which are very important for engines that are 21 yrs. old. I would have the local cat. Dealer do a very thorough survey on them. The price does seem very low. If it's too good to be true, etc. There is only 1 picture of the engines and does not show much.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 7th, '16, 09:22

your right ed any horsepower above 375 is really tough on a 3208. they are on borrowed time. a royal pain in the ass to work on in that engine space.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 8th, '16, 21:56

my friend purchase it subject to survey will go with QSB cummins at 725hp each.i will keep the brothers inform.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » May 9th, '16, 19:39

Bob, I hope the asp is 425, not 725, regardless the 38 is a hefty boat and I think the c series may have the torque required, I do defer to your expertise but I've had a 38 for 2-3 years and a high horsepower b may be a little light

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '16, 20:13

typo as usual should read QSM cummins 725 each side.first we have to inspect bottom out of water.boat is filthy live in condition not important however single lever controls and rybo. pod make up for all that cleaning.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » May 9th, '16, 21:01

Qsm 725? Fun boat. I really think the hull could handle that much hp, but better you than I. With that a much hp, to do it justice you're buddy's talking a couple bucks. I'd like to see qsms on a 42 .
I

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '16, 21:36

the key to fuel economy is to put her up on her strakes in addition to engineered 110 percent props.with panda generator moved forward and changes to fresh water location i belive i need 650hp plus to put 30,000 pounds "into the wind" at 40knt.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 9th, '16, 21:39

Heck, I'd be very happy to have a pair of QSM Cummins 725's in my Bertram!... And at a rough guess, I'm at least 30-40% heavier with at least as much more wetted are then a Bertram 38...

Kevind767 · Post by **Kevind767** » May 10th, '16, 07:21

I like the idea of getting the generator out of that hole in the middle of the cockpit.
Nothing but a rust trap.

To move the gen forward, you have to move that aluminum water tank.
Where do you plan on putting the new water tank? Maybe 2-50 gallon tanks on either side?

I am very interested as I have a 1983 model, and would love some new ideas.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 10th, '16, 10:41

thats a lot of engineering you are giving me so rather then point you in the wrong direction let me say this ;the generator will come forward taking the place of water tank in dry area. i will remove structs and put a 3' slot in bottom because new engine gears will sit 1" off bilge and make new prop shaft angle.with extended shaft log. i have use of travel lift to balance the boat .i have to offset that huge live well weight on transom as well as deep kill boxes for ice in cockpit near stern. boat comes with professional apply teak cockpit so cannot change configuration of in deck boxes but can make deeper.there is a a deposit and contract subject to survey.somebody put major bucks into bridge F/G it looks like captain patricks work, a knock off of new style Bertram 510.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 10th, '16, 11:12

bridge F/G it looks like captain patricks work

Yup, that's my console bubble, customer/agent install...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 10th, '16, 16:56

a 1979 Bertram so it`s a go for using QSM-11 recons at 670hp a little down from current tier four 725hp but they will be adequate to get her on top with maximum efficiency props. love the confort and no nightmares from later year cored bertrams.they had a 40' egg harbor in the yard that is declared total due to water infirtration of balsa core. boat was repowered with brand new c-7 cats damn shame beautiful interior may use as powerless house boat.the 38' bertram is entirely glass like 31'.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » May 10th, '16, 19:43

Bob, love to hear details of the project, having had mt 38 for almost 3 years any new approaches would be interesting. The idea of the qsm is cool, I often liken this hull to the old formula hulls of the early eighties. I think this hull is much more adaptable to higher horsepower than the 31. We just didn't have diesels like the c series or The qsm
Back then. Tell hi. To take out the head in the master, we made the space a cabinet, win a hamper inside. Night honey, I have to take a dump,, ? Really?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 10th, '16, 21:32

i agree 100 % i would never never have a head next to were my wife and i sleep.that will be the first step as well as change to fresh water porcelein electric toilet in main head.change all sanitation hoses.the 3208 cat have 2000 hours and a recent survey so i have time to acquire new power.

Kevind767 · Post by **Kevind767** » May 10th, '16, 22:30

Agree about that silly idea of an extra head in forward Master.
Wasted space
Its gone in mine to put a small seat and extra storage space.

QSM is a big engine in that space.
Love the idea, but it really is a tight fit for the 38.

Can you make it easy access for major servicing points?

Please keep us up to date on how the project goes.
Very interested , and wish you much luck.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 11th, '16, 06:27

in light of the fact that the 3208 is a v-8 and QSM-11 is a 6cylinder there will be more room to work between hull and engine.higher yes but engine will sit much lower in hull .longer yes that belt guard comes off in front of engine and due to the fact will not use shaft log location i have freedom to move fore and aft with shorter lighter ZF gears.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » May 11th, '16, 22:26

With the Ms your looking at 40+ gallons per hour total burn. With a 12 hour minimum cruise time for a traveling boat your looking at 480 gallons of fuel on the light side. What's the plan for fuel, water, waste. It's an aggressive plan the Ms are a tight fit in a 45 Viking.

Good luck

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 12th, '16, 09:50

jp why do you put 12 hours into the equation? monmouth NJ to hudson canyon.

neil · Post by **neil** » May 12th, '16, 13:13

Bob there are other canyons and destinations that they may want to consider ,lots of fuel is your best freind

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 12th, '16, 17:51

i see this quite often calulations without ant through to boat speed.hudson canyon about 80 miles,100 square about 18 miles more let s make it 100 miles plus 50 miles trolling . 40 gallons a hour and the boat is going close to 38 to 40 miles a hour. (keeping gallons per hour with miles per hour instead of knots) canyon two hours 80 gallons and 100square another 20 gallons in all 100 gallons and 200 round trip plus throw in another 30 gallons trolling. 230gallons round out to 250 total out of 395 tankage. not going to give one through to fuel . the 510 Bertram with 1100 hp manns burn 75 a hour and we had 1050gallon tankage. never monitor it just fill it before leaving for canyon. 45' cabo had 850hp MTU with 600 tankage we burn about 45 gallons a hour lucky if we burn half a tank.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » May 12th, '16, 18:40

I see this quite often as well. Bertram was famous for it before they went out of business. Would build a boat to fish Florida waters with minimal fuel and wonder why it wouldn't sell in the northeast. 12 hours of cruise time is the amount of daylight you have in the spring to come home from Florida without stopping for fuel. The amount of fuel in the boat is what limits your travel time while traveling. It makes the boat easier to sell when the time comes. It allows you to fish further for longer.

My advice is to not build a one trick pony, if this is a boat that you expect to do great things in, make it a boat capable of doing great things. You don't have to fill the tank, but it's damn nice to be able to, how far is Atlantis, Veatch, Hydrographers. You run to Hudson and bite is in toms,

We have 660 gallons of fuel in the topaz and burn 38 per hour 25 knots it's a little over 400 miles in range. To fish aggressively I want more fuel. Optimum range for me is 500 miles that lets the boat fish from the Washington to the Atlantis out of manasquan.

At 40 gallons per hour you are less then 10 hours of cruise. Boo.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 12th, '16, 20:22

JP Dalik wrote:Bertram was famous for it before they went out of business. Would build a boat to fish Florida waters with minimal fuel and wonder why it wouldn't sell in the northeast.

I think a perfect example of this is the 46'6"... Originally they came with a single tank (between the engine room and the cockpit) of about 400 gallon... Later on they put in a second tank (build into the hull underneath the galley and master cabin) and raised the total to 720 gallon...

Not that 720 gallon is in any way acceptable as that translates to about 280-300 miles total... With a little reserve...

Now you guys know why I had a 150 gallon fuel bladder...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 12th, '16, 22:36

Navatech wrote:Not that 720 gallon is in any way acceptable as that translates to about 280-300 miles total...

Holy cow, with that much fuel I can do endless vacations for 2-3 years. Just with one such fill-up!

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 12th, '16, 23:35

Yannis wrote:Holy cow, with that much fuel I can do endless vacations for 2-3 years. Just with one such fill-up!

First, fuel in the US is less then half what it is in Europe...

Second, the pimply kid next door with the moped/scooter can ride all month on the fuel you use in less then a week in your car... And both the moped/scooter and the car will get the driver from point A to point B... However, you're comparing apples to oranges...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 13th, '16, 01:59

Navatech wrote:First, fuel in the US is less then half what it is in Europe...

Correct. However, I still can do 2-3 years of vacation with that much fuel; I said nothing about the price.
(By the way, how much is diesel in the US ?)

Navatech wrote:However, you're comparing apples to oranges...

Maybe, but I'm still allowed a comment, aren't I ?...
If it were for ocean fishing perhaps the bigger boat could justify its existence.
Tied up in a dock drinking ouzo and socializing though, may mean that the smaller the boat the more practical it becomes... especially when you want to move it, and still find a place when you're back in the evening. Usually bigger boats are too much of a hassle to move during the day to go for a swim, and a much bigger hassle when they come back in the evening to find a place to tie up.
After you sell your 46.6 and all the other smaller ones, get a 28 and bring it here. I could take care of it during your absence!

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » May 13th, '16, 04:29

yannis
I pay $3.03 on long island ny

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 13th, '16, 05:18

Thank you Charlie.

So, $ 3.03 would be E 2.63 for one gallon. Divided by 3.785 liters = 70 eurocents per liter.
I pay 1 euro per liter now. Last summer though it was E 1.3 - 1.5 per liter.
This is "moving" diesel, as we call it.
For "heating" diesel, which is destined only for home heating and is available only Oct. through March (different color) and is subsidised, the price is around 70 eurocents. Although its the same diesel, you can't use it for boats or cars.

So finally the difference is substantial, but I thought it would be much much bigger.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '16, 07:10

the fishing situation is quite different for me.the other guys on the 38 could never stay out on a extended fishing trip ,i wanted to go to vetch canyon or washington i would go on a 38' topaz or a 41 hatteras out of montauk easier to drive the car to montauk.i can always connect in the 100 square at night chunking or swordfish deep drop.real luck if connect with big eye tuna but these guys are happy with yellowfin,long fin,albocore,or bluefin tuna combination.howie is not the least bit concern with money and could care less about fuel cost.AHH to be single and make stupid money and he wants this boat not a new 50' viking. been there seen that and Mann engine suck!!! bigger is definitly not better in fishing boats and none of us want a air condition bridge! a disaster last year fishing with big boat .a 31 Bertram except for a 3 man crew creature confort cannot be beat like Brewster`s 31 .just pick your two day weather report and go.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '16, 07:32

last year canyon boat OMG 15 knots with the loudest john deere engines you ever heard actually nolified nice roomy cabin because you cannot sleep with engine running the trips ended with 4 men on bridge with door shut when trolling captain has no idea whats happening in cockpit. letting down swordfish rig on two speed 80. giant sword hit and carry line under swim platform and damn near spool 80 on low with reel in overstrike. after sawing thru swim platform 100 pound line broke as 500 pound sword broke surface of water. who the hell put a swim platform on a fishing boat BTW. cannot come close to the fishing ability of 31 Bertram that can go to canyon in half the time and half the fuel.-----------no thank you( perhaps in a unexpected gale warning.)

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 13th, '16, 08:51

Yannis wrote:I'm still allowed a comment, aren't I ?...

Of course you are... But you'd still be comparing apples to oranges... I got the boat to do two things:

Offshore deep sea fishing, with or without the Admiral and the 4 mates...
Cruising in the FL keys and Bahamas with the Admiral and the 4 mates...

P.S. Considering the fact that the two eldest (male) mates are young adult men that could easily mean between 6 - 8 people on the boat... No way I could do something like that, in comfort, with anything smaller...

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 13th, '16, 08:54

Yannis wrote:For "heating" diesel, which is destined only for home heating and is available only Oct. through March (different color) and is subsidised, the price is around 70 eurocents.

That heating fuel is NOT subsidized!... It's merely taxed at a lower rate!... That's NOT a subsidy!...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 13th, '16, 10:54

Navatech wrote:That's NOT a subsidy!...

Ha,ha you're d@mn right....

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 13th, '16, 11:25

Yannis wrote:Ha,ha you're d@mn right....

Yesterday I filled my truck's tank at $2.15/gallon... And that includes some (relatively low) taxes!... That's $0.57/liter... Or 0.5 Euro/liter...

The marina (always significantly more expensive than regular gas stations) I'm at currently charges $3.03/gallon of diesel... That's $0.80/liter... Or 0.71 Euro/liter... And EVERYTHING is more expensive in PR because it's an Island and everything has to be shipped in... By US flagged vessels (Jones Act)...

Marina and fuel dock prices are always more expensive because of the lower volume of business and higher costs (such as insurance)...

My local gas station currently charges $2.19/gallon for diesel... And that includes some (relatively low) taxes!... That's $0.58/liter... Or 0.51 Euro/liter... If I'm docked at a private dock here in southeast FL I can order diesel delivered to my boat (by truck) at just a few (single digit) cents more then that (100 gallon minimum applies)...

Fuel is significantly cheaper here in the US at the pump... The basic fuel price is NOT that much different in Europe... After all, fuel is a worldwide commodity... The reason Europeans pay so much more at the pump is your governments using the drivers as milk (tax) cows...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 13th, '16, 12:16

Cows, you're right.

The fact is that everywhere in Europe the price of fuel is twice that of the US. Everywhere!
That's one reason why there are very few gas boats over 7-8 meters. Because gas engines consume more and gas is yet more expensive too.
And thousands of smaller boats - ribs in their majority, that use gas, but they are economical because they are light.
And since pleasure boating is almost only for cruising and leisure - not fishing - people buy those trailerable ribs around the mainland or the islands, where they spend their summer vacations and then in September they bring them back home.
You have to be quite wealthy to own a boat over 30 feet in Europe, let alone the exorbitant taxes for owning one. Which taxes are calculated on a per foot basis...
46.6 ? You must be out of your mind !!

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 13th, '16, 12:30

Yannis wrote:You have to be quite wealthy to own a boat over 30 feet in Europe, let alone the exorbitant taxes for owning one. Which taxes are calculated on a per foot basis...
46.6 ? You must be out of your mind !!

When you buy a boat here in southeast FL you'll pay a 6-7% sales tax (rate depends on exact location and there's actually a maximum limit to that tax) and thereafter less then $200 in annual registration fees...

Frankly, it's not us (US?) who're out of our minds... It's your European governments that are out of their minds... But then again, all that "free" stuff (education, single payer health care, ludicrous payments to "refugees" etc) has to be paid for...

Let's say you're paying 40% of your income in income tax, you'll pay AT LEAST another 10% in social security dues... So basically, straight out of the gate, you only get to spend 48 cents out of every Euro you actually make... But that's not the end of the story because you have 21% VAT on practically everything... So, what actually remains in actual buying power from your 48 cents is about 40 cents... And even THAT you don't really get because there are "hidden" taxes (such as on fuel, tobacco and booze)...

Frankly, if you own a car, a boat and a house you end up paying about 75% of your income in various taxes...

No wonder that everybody in Greece (and elsewhere in Europe) prefers to deal in cash only...

It's just as bad in The Netherlands and Israel...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 13th, '16, 13:15

Nav, it's even worse than how you describe it.
Because a car is taxed according to its engine displacement, a house according to its value ( size of house X cost of square meter in the area it is built)...forget the boat - that is a grand luxury.
Hence the small cars and the 2 room houses...

CHolgerson · Post by **CHolgerson** » May 13th, '16, 14:35

I spent the summer fishing a 60 viking that did almost 44 knots wot and could cruise in the high 30s. That being said we never ran over 30 knots to or from the canyon for obvious reasons. Cool, YES! Practical absolutely not. A 30 knot cruise is more than enough in any offshore fishing boat.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » May 13th, '16, 15:07

Yannis wrote:Nav, it's even worse than how you describe it.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know... And just so you know, if it were up to the Libtards (like Bernie Sanders a.k.a. BS - short for Bull $hit) it would be the same if not worse here in the US...

Brothers of the sandbox, if I had the right to vote here I'd rather vote for Donald Duck then Donald Trump but, if he IS the GOP candidate PLEASE when voting day comes around, go and vote for him... Even if you have to hold your nose while doing so...

You REALLY do NOT want to become like Europe... Sure, a lot of stuff needs to be fixed in the US but the European way isn't going to solve anything... In fact, it's going to make matters worse!...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '16, 15:14

cris that is close to how i run my 31 . 28 knots if i am paying for fuel which is maximum fuel economy and 30 knots if howie fills the tank and pays all .then i run 30 knots weather permiting .still come back to fire island inlet with just under a 1/2 a tank. (hudson canyon).two sleep in V-berth and one napping half ass on engine box cushion with one alert and manning the latel.the 38' bertram has v-berth, bunk beds and couch in salon like a cruise ship!!!!!!!! for 3 people.the 510 bertram was a waste like that 60' viking.cruise at 34 knots, i ran it at 30 knots.the 45'cabo was fastantic overnight;sleep,rough water,fighting big eye in release marine chair,and can cruise easily at 35 knots beautiful boat all around.