Diesel tank Q

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 26th, '16, 01:00

During my annual service, my mechanic found a brownish gooey-sticky substance in the racor filters. I would have thought it was that diesel bacterial slime, but this stuff was sticky and difficult to remove from the inside walls of the glass filter container.

He suspects the fiberglass tank and he assumed it could be some sort of osmosis inside the tank. Tank and filters were all cleaned last year and the fact that this residue was the product of just one season is what mostly alarmed him. I have no idea how old my 550 liter diesel tank is and whether this problem can be called osmosis or else.

Here are some pics of the tank's inside when it was cleaned last year. Can somebody tell me if these spots are the beginning of some sort of disintegration? If yes, does the tank need to be replaced? Do you guys suggest a grp or stainless new tank ? Could someone give me a cost indication, or at least a cost comparison between the two?
Thank you.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 26th, '16, 07:21

has your tank ever seen ethano

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 26th, '16, 07:47

No Charlie, I don't think so.
Do you know if there is some way I can tell if this is stock or if it has been replaced at some point?

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Feb 26th, '16, 11:09

Have you been using a diesel additive such as Stanadynes? I don't know if it will cure what's going on but use it and you will be better off.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 26th, '16, 12:02

I wouldn't know if its stock or not
iam with kevin I use stanadynes

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 26th, '16, 14:50

Is this stanadynes an anti slime agent? Because I already use one ,can't remember which one, and there is no slime.

There are a few types of stanadynes, which one?

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Feb 26th, '16, 18:53

It's serves three purposes all in one. Biocide, lubricant and cetane booster. I no nlonger have the container it came in and need to re order.
I just did my annual yesterday. Have not used the boat much on the past couple months. Just nice diesel fuel in the bowls. No algae or water. Actually I have never seen water so I am lucky there.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 27th, '16, 00:00

Thanks Kevin. When you reorder, please tell me which of all types you chose.

So far, nobody told me to change my tank though. Which, so far, is a good thing !!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 27th, '16, 01:23

Yannis

I am using a note pasd and the pictures are a little small, but it looks like the tank may have blisters. Not sure what type of fuel you get over there.

Do you use bio diesel? If the boat was converted from gas to diesel, and if they add ethnol to the gas, then maybe someone put that in at one time.

Also, read the ingredients on the additive bottle. Some contain alcohol which ISA bigno no.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 27th, '16, 02:39

Tony,

I expected you'd chime in as a connoisseur of fuels.
We get ordinary diesel, no biodiesel. By the way, what's wrong with biodiesel?
Is it so important that sometime in the past someone may have put ethanol gas? Even once?
I'll look into the ingredients of my biocide, thanks.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 27th, '16, 11:08

Yannis,
It looks like the start of Osmosis ( water blistering). Similar to what happens to an un-painted, un- barrier coated bottom of a vessel if left in the water. Did you have to change your fuel filters more than usual last season?. There are areas that look like the styrene has been eaten away completely other areas have smaller pimple like blisters on the surfaces. The darker brown areas look like some sort of tar build-up on the rough surfaces of the tank. Are you sure that you never had any ethanol gasoline in the tank, that's what it looks like to my eye. I would keep a sharp look out for any signs of fuel leaking from the tank and additional tar like deposits in your glass fuel filters. I would start looking/ pricing out a new fuel tank whether it be a FRP or an aluminum tank.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 27th, '16, 12:14

Pete,

The dark brown marks are not any build-up; they are what can be seen UNDER the white/beige layer (paint?) that was gone with the water pressure pistol.

The racor filters were ok, I didn't change them again during the season. What my mechanic told me was that the smaller diesel filters that follow were pretty dirty. And I had to remove and service all 8 injectors by precaution because the port engine was producing black smoke more than the ordinary.
You're saying frp or alu; why not ss tank?
Thanks.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 27th, '16, 12:24

Yannis,
Stainless Steel can be very hard to weld, you need a real good welder and can become brittle over the years, plus it's expensive. If I were you I would go FRP before aluminum for tank material. I think Danny at High Tide in Florida Keys has a connection for FRP tanks also Glass Tech in Miami was building FRP Tanks that are Vinyl ester resin although for diesel, poly ester is okay. The last time I looked at there sites they were going for around $3,000.00 for the tank, shipping might be very costly to Greece. Maybe check with Gert in Holland he might have a line on FRP tanks in Europe.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 27th, '16, 12:39

Pete, have you heard of these?

http://www.vetus.com/fuel-systems/tanks ... -fuel.html

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Feb 27th, '16, 21:52

Yannis wrote:Pete, have you heard of these?

http://www.vetus.com/fuel-systems/tanks ... -fuel.html

Vetus is a very well known brand in the marine market... The only problem with standard, off the shelf, tanks would be the fact that unless you get very lucky you won't be able to maximize your tankage... IOW, you most probably will have to give up some potential tankage volume in order to get one of their standard sizes to fit your available space...

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 28th, '16, 01:06

Yannis
Here in the States stainless tanks are not permitted in charter boats. Not coast guard approved. I do remember way back when there was only one coast guard certified welder for stainless tanks. I don't think he is around any more.

Your best bet would be aluminum, then you can get the exterior powder coated for protection. Or you can seasl it your self.

Did by chance your boat come from the states? If it did then it is possible it had ethanol.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 28th, '16, 01:54

Nav,

You're right, but it's hassle free, you just buy it, you make what's necessary in terms of space prep and,oops, you got yourself a new tank!
On the other hand, my frp tank is not optimized either, while the outside is huge, a lot of space is consumed in bonding the tank to the boat stringers; in short, perhaps the 7 mm thickness of the Vetus tank might save up part of the "non custom" issue. I'll call them next week, anyway it's a project for next year...

Tony,

What a world ! Alu tanks are VERY expensive here. Both the sheet material as well as the welding material. SS are cheaper ! By so much, that I doubt anybody has alu tanks at all.
SS becomes brittle only if there are stress forces applied, e.g. in the case of SS springs, or sailboat rigging. If the case of tanks there are no structural stresses, so that shouldn't be an issue.
As for the origin of my tank, the boat came from the US at one time, the point is whether the tank was replaced with the engine conversion, but like I said, I have no clue as to what happened back then. How can I tell if the tank is stock, are there any marks or specific building parameters that I can go by?

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 28th, '16, 09:28

Yannis,
What size is your tank, the original 172 gallon pre 1973 tank or the newer 233 gallon after 1973. Vetus makes a lot of good parts for the marine industry, do they make a tank that is large enough ( I searched their site for 170 gallon tanks and nothing came up ). How about checking flexible fuel bladders, I don't know if they go to the bigger sizes. If you have a welder that does stainless steel I would talk to him about if he could build you a tank. Your not going to charter the boat I don't know what the safety regulations for fuel tanks in Greece are, if any. Good luck finding a new tank, use the old tank for now, but I would start looking for a new tank no matter what the material is going to be.

Navatec send me your regular e-mail address so I can e-mail you the mock up pictures of the 35 so you can post them to this board.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 28th, '16, 09:56

Pete,

My tank is 550 liters - at least this is how much I remember having been able to fill it up to, after I cleaned it and it was 100% empty. Converting to gallons (div. by 3.79), this would result to 145 gallons give or take. So it's neither of the two !!! does this mean the tank is not stock? Probably.

Vetus doesn't make such big plastic tanks, but it could be 2 smaller tanks, no? I was looking at their site too, seems I could perhaps be able to combine two tanks - a bigger one and a smaller one, or, two of equal size- I have to go down and measure the space...

I have no idea about regulations either but I know that everybody makes SS replacement tanks, so it shouldn't be that hard to have them made. I have a welder only he's of the "slow boat to China" type, so if I go SS I'll have to start in September to be ready by the summer of 2017 !!

Thanks for your input.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 28th, '16, 18:47

Yannis,
I thought you had a 31" Bertram not a 28, the size of the tank area under your cockpit sole will dictate the size of tank you can use, I can't remember how the 28's are set up.
You could use 2 separate tanks of the same size with a cross over manifold system to run either tank or both. Even with all the extra plumbing it would be cheaper for 2 Vetus tanks. There is a company in Stuart, Fl that makes poly plastic tanks I will check into that company in a few days.
I'll get back to you in a few days with an answer.
Pete Fallon

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 28th, '16, 19:28

Yannis,
I found a site in Canada that might be helpful for your tank problem. It is Called DuraTec Products out of Nova Scotia check it out.
Pete Fallon

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 29th, '16, 00:26

Yannis

The original tank had a label pasted to the top. Indicated boat mfg, gallons and material tank was made out of. Mine said Whitaker Corp. On it since they owned Bertram when my
Boat was built.

My label faded out and peeled off during my repower. I would think your tank is original.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Feb 29th, '16, 02:25

Pete, thanks for the alternatives.

Given the size of the tanks, is is impractical to consider anything that is made abroad and have to get into the ordeal of shipping from abroad etc..., that being said, Vetus has a representative here and I know they carry tanks in their product list, so, as we discussed, it's either my welding a new SS tank, or it's Vetus with whatever alternatives or combinations they can propose, or any other local solution.

Tony,

I can't find any label, the thing's been painted over and over I don't know how many times so far. Anyway, the question of whether the tank is original is only to satisfy my curiosity...., now that the tank needs replacement little does it matter anymore if its stock or not, don't you agree?

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 29th, '16, 22:21

Yannis

I agree. The only reason for knowing if it was recently replaced while here in the States, would be to try and determine if it was built to take ethanol. Which it appears it doesn't as we are all assuming.

I think the cheapest way to go is to replace it. I say cheapest, is because if the tank is breaking down, it will result in an engine rebuild.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 1st, '16, 01:13

Tony Meola wrote:I say cheapest, is because if the tank is breaking down, it will result in an engine rebuild.

Tony, Pete,

So, how fast shall I expect this tank to disintegrate?
Will it take me through this summer (600-1000 n.m. approx., or 30-50 hrs, or 1500- 2500 liters, or 400- 700 gallons ) or shall I expedite the order?
Shall I open it and see what's going on? And what will I see that might alert me? (I'm not sure I want an answer on this last one)

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Mar 1st, '16, 06:26

yannis
if the tank starts leaking your going to have some mess on your hands
I would start to order a new tank, you never know when they will let go

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mar 1st, '16, 14:24

Just idle winter speculation here, but if those are Osmosis blisters, then why can't Yannis repair them by putting grinding out the surface, drying them out then apply an epoxy barrier coat to the tanks, just as you would on a hull bottom with Osmosis? Would that not be cheaper, easier and just as effective as new tanks?

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 1st, '16, 23:59

Rocket wrote:Just idle winter speculation here, but if those are Osmosis blisters, then why can't Yannis repair them by putting grinding out the surface, drying them out then apply an epoxy barrier coat to the tanks, just as you would on a hull bottom with Osmosis? Would that not be cheaper, easier and just as effective as new tanks?

You would have to cut the tank open then try to reseal it. Good luck with that. Better off with a new tank.

Yannis the sludge will drive you crazy.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 2nd, '16, 00:05

Charlie thanks.

Rocket, good point, lets see who can give us instructions on this.

I suspect that you can never clean the surface so well that a new component could bond to it; diesel has rendered the frp oily and the blisters have absorbed enough already so that if you cover it with epoxy, or whatever, it will blister again.
Water osmosis you can let dry, how can you let dry diesel ? And there is also the practical part, how can you grind the whole tank? The inspection holes - one in every baffle area- are too small to fit an arm and a grinder... and still leave enough space to be able to see what you're doing... and assuming that you have a veeeeery long arm...
One thing could be to cut open ALL the top, do the job, and then glass it back.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 2nd, '16, 00:09

Tony, I just read your remarks. That's what I thought too with cutting the top off...
I'm going down today, I'll try to have the deck removed so as to take good measurements and perhaps open the tank to see what's going on in there...Cross your fingers..

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 2nd, '16, 09:16

I opened the tank and stuck my arm down to the bottom. The tip of my fingers felt a gooey sticky layer of about 1-2 mm deep.
Then I scraped the bottom with the screwdriver and found what's shown in the photos !
The guys at the yard told me it should be biodiesel remnants and/or glycerin residue. Apparently (Tony) some unknown to me % of diesel is biodiesel.
Apparently also, it has nothing to do with tank disintegration or osmosis.
Can this be the final verdict ?
Is Kevin's Stanadynes a solution for the prevention of similar future build-up?

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Mar 5th, '16, 00:28

Yannis,
I was at the Sabre/Back Cove Factory in Raymond Maine this morning and saw the biggest poly Propylene tank I ever saw. I asked who made it and they said Moller<check out Mollers web site for sizes that they are making, I didn't get the exact amount of gallons the tank held but it was about 6' long by 36"" wide by 30" high, set up for a QSB Cummins single diesel.
I would say it's time for a new tank, with the blisters and black tar goop in the bottom. You will end up cooking the engine it you don't change it out soon.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 5th, '16, 00:45

Thanks Pete.
The tar has nothing to do with the tank. In fact, I gave some tar samples to the lab and it came out that this "honey" like substance is biodiesel that has been decomposed by time.

I'll remove old diesel, clean the tank thoroughly and live with it for this summer. I'll change it next September after this season is over.

Lesson learned: As I can't know from beforehand who-sells-what type of diesel, I'll have to be ending the year low in diesel and pump out the rest so that it doesn't disintegrate in the boat's tank over the winter.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 6th, '16, 00:21

Yannis

If it is biodiesel residue then it sounds like the tank is still good. The issue is, what cleans biodiesel sludge, without hurting the tank. Try the Standyn but carry a lot of extra filters. If it works, there will be a lot of sludge coming into the filters.

Live and learn. Never knew biodiesel sludged up like that. I was always told it acted like a cleaner.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 6th, '16, 00:42

Tony,

I was told that a sludge cleaner is called Orbil, one has to be careful about preventing contact with cables or plastics because it destroys them....
The filters issue is one thing, but consider that I just changed all filters in my annual and that next time the motors will run will be with a clean tank. I will literally empty the tank of all diesel and then remove the sludge with the well known spatula/rag 'n cleaner combination. I will then also examine the tank's condition, if it shows osmosis signs etc. I have to find a way to empty the tank first though, which is a dirty job already.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 6th, '16, 12:47

Hey Captain ,

I'm listening to "Radio Texas" right now, you people are something !!

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 6th, '16, 13:28

Yannis,

You listening to talk, music, or what on Radio Texas? Something; what something?

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 6th, '16, 15:02

I'm listening to uninterrupted Music. The one that radio Texas plays on the internet.

Us city people can't grasp southern vibes; you're in a mood of your own ! Laid back yet active, strict yet mellow...I like it !! It's if I were there somehow...

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 6th, '16, 17:01

Yannis,

You're welcome to come hear it first hand anytime... Yup, as you describe, we do dance to a different set of drummers here.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Mar 6th, '16, 21:00

Yannis,

Is a fuel bladder an option? Cut the top off the old tank to contain the bladder. Just a crazy thought. My brother is using a bladder as an aux tank on a 37 Ford race car that will be running the Peking to Paris race this year. Thought if might cheaper, easier to ship option for you.

http://www.atlinc.com/rangeextender.html

Cam

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 6th, '16, 23:24

Yannis

My question to you is, if Orbil is so caustic that it can ruin plastic, have you thought about what it might do to your fuel tank?

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Mar 7th, '16, 00:37

Thank you Captain.

Cam,

I hadn't thought about it, because I didn't even know it existed. I would tend to think that a rigid tank is generally safer in harsh environments where, except for the abrasion with the bilge (which is not the smoothest anyway) you'd have to accommodate for... flying spanners, mechanics' boots, falling objects and a requirement for extra vigilance that I'm not sure I can provide. As I went through your link though, I started liking it; I'll keep it in mind when time comes. Thanks.
PS: Your bro is not what we'd call a boring guy, is he !!! Peking to Paris, wow. And he'll have to pass through those lovely peaceful countries to come here !!

Tony,

I'm just about starting to think about it!!
I'll have to inquire if it's grp safe, or else, I think a more traditional approach of a pressure water pistol with some kind of detergent would do the job. I first have to drain the diesel to reach the bottom and assess the situation. It might perhaps be easier than anticipated. Thanks.