30 amp cockpit shorepower questions

[Chum Bucket]

To the great minds of B31.com

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/inst ... smart_plug
I ran across this webpage which has been a tremendous help. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but he makes some valid points. This particular article actually scared me a bit especially about dock fires. I'm not switching over to Smartplugs....yet!

My B33 has been bastardized and not always in a good way. The PO's opted for quick fixes when it came to electrical and I'm still weeding out the gremlins. At one time the boat had 2 standard 30 AMP cockpit shorepower connections. I assume one was for 120VAC loads like the stove and water heater. The other for the air conditioner. BTW, there's no need for A/C on the Oregon coast which is why I have a Cruisair heat/AC to put in. The PO's eliminated one connection probably because it was fried. BTW, the A/C does not have a water circ pump either, dorks! Instead of replacing, they tied everything into one connection and used a 50 amp double pole breaker with a 10AWG triplex wire to the panel. The breaker was toast when I bought in 2011, but I replaced with a 30 amp since it's 30 amp on the dock. Seemed to make sense to me, but WTH do I know? After reading the article. I have some work to do to be able to revamp the 120 side AND properly install the Cruisair. Yes, new wire and an galvanic isolator I am not an electrician in any sense so bear with me.

1) When the author mentions a double pole/throw breaker, he's talking about 2 breakers side by side with the switches connected, correct?
2) Was I correct to drop the bad 50 amp and swap for a 30 amp breaker?
3) Do I need to buy a 2nd galvanic isolator for the 2nd cockpit connection?

Anyone have any experience with shorepower nightmares or dock fires or Smartplugs, good or bad?

Thanks in advance. I'll take pics when I start this can O' worms.

[Chum Bucket]

4) The double breaker is so the white and black wires have their own circuit protection, right?

[Pete Fallon]

Kevin,
I suggest that you get a qualified marine electrician, the original 120 volt shore power on out 31's leaves a lot to be desired, that also goes for the 12 volt side too. The rules for 120volt inlets require that there be a 30 or 50 amp shore power breaker (what ever your using) must have a breaker within 76" of the inlet. Marinco, Guest, Hubble and other rated inlets are fine as long as there is no signs of corrosion , burn marks, missing retainer rings or rotten insulation, check both ends of your shore power cord for issues, not just the inlet.. The 31 Bertram's had a very inexpensive wiring system back in the 60's and 70's. Household style breaker boxes, no GFIC outlets and single jacketed wiring with color coded wires that fade over the years.
I suggest changing all the 120 volt wiring if it is original, the inner jacket on the 120 volt wires heavy black outer covering (Black, White and Green with brown paper) may look okay but when you peel back the outer jacketing the inner wire insulation just crumbles in your fingers. Also they did not use GFIC duplex outlets in the galley and head areas. The way they ran the 120 volt wire was basically a single run from the old Consta-Volt system to the last duplex outlet in the starboard V berth.
They ran the shore power from the inlet behind the port engine box to 2-30 amp cartridge fuses then to a junction box then to the outlets. If you were lucky there was a Consta-Volt system with two 2 amp glass fuses inside the unit. I installed all new Anchor marine boat cable 600 degree temp rating throughout my boat. For the 120 volt shore power I used 10/3 cable between the shore power inlet and a new 30 amp 5 breaker Blue Seas panel with an analog read out gage. each breaker was marked for use, 120 v outlets, battery charger, spare, Air Conditioner (not installed and a Refrigerator. I put 120V duplex GFIC breakers in the head, galley and anywhere I thought could get wet. The 12 volt system leaves a lot to be desired also. Single wires with color coding that faded away over the years and no chafe protection where wires pass thru bulkheads and not supported every 18" per code requirements. I* rewire all the 12volt system wires with 12/2, 10/3, 14/2 and 8 gage green for the bonding system, use heat shrinked epoxy terminal ends and plastic terminal strips. I used Blue Seas panel boards for both 12 volt and 120 volt breaker panels.
The wiring in our old boats can get real expensive to replace but if you use the correct wire size, good breaker panels and shore power inlets,it should last longer than you will own the boat for and be a lot safer in the long run. Take your time and do it right, you will learn a lot about how the boat is made, you don't have to do it all in one season, but doing it correctly can prevent burning up your investment. I've seen a lot of burnt wiring and burnt boats over the years I have been surveying Call me if you want to talk 561-310-7179 or e-mail me at fal4artbts@aol.com
Pete Fallon

[Chum Bucket]

Thanks Pete, you speak the truth as much as I don't want to hear it.

As I said before, I'm not an electrician however I do understand loads, amp capacity, resistance, etc. I love to learn! I keep 2 of Calder's book in the bathroom so I immerse myself in crap (pun intended) I may never have to do! I can turn a wrench, but I will hire/consult with a boat electrician for advice. First electrical priority is adding a house bank and all new DC power panel in the engine room. Other than the original shorepower connection and breaker, in 5 years I have not found any burnt wiring, Corroded from piss poor connections and no adhesive heat shrink, yes! Burnt from overload/shorts, no. The PO did spend money on the machinery which is great, but he never heard of using a zip tie or cushioned clamp when it came to wiring. Letting it dangle from the ceiling, you bet...perfectly ok! One 6' run of wire in the helm was actually 5 pieces of 10ga, 12ga and 18ga wire; poorly connected by twisting and wrapping in duct tape, solder covered with electrical tape, and yes, twist caps filled with silicone. This was the power lead off the dash to three 55W halogen floodlights. The 18ga was in the middle!

I would love to own a diesel powered B31 to run around on Puget Sound, but my B33 is enough for now. Way cheaper than a brand new 35' Bertie!

[Pete Fallon]

Kevin,
Nigel Calders Books are a very good source of info on boat wiring, Boat/US catalog used to have a few good reference pages on basic boat wiring and battery connections. I misunderstood you I thought you had a 31FBC not a 33, I have surveyed a couple of 33's that were newer boats in the early 80's, they had very good wiring and breaker panels. Good luck with your project, I've been out to Astoria OR but haven't made Puget Sound yet, looks like a beautiful area. Find a good marine electrical guy he will save you a lot of money in the long run. Sounds like the PO was a sail boat guy before he bought the 33 Bertram, 3 different size wires,twisted wires, did he at least solder them together, I supposed he used wire nuts also.
Pete Fallon

[Bruce]

If your running 220vac a double pole bkr with handles tied external or internal are used to kill both hot legs should on overload.

110vac circuits don't need a double pole bkr as the neutral/white leg has no voltage on it. On some rare occasions I've seen them on 110vac circuits but it is not needed.

BTW is your 50 amp inlet 110vac or 220vac? There are 50a 110vac. Bayliner was a big user of them. Depending on what your dock provides, it might be better to use a 50a 220vac inlet and split the legs in the panel instead of using two inlets and two cords.

[Chum Bucket]

Bruce, I'll have to ask the B33.com guys on how the factory wired shorepower inlets. I like the idea of having separate cords although the harbormaster won't be thrilled when I start using a another 30 amp service.

Wire nuts? Funny you mentioned them because there were several pairs in use! I give the PO's some credit, theyfilled the caps with some unknown sealant prior to screwing them on. I distinctly remember laughing my ass off when I noticed the wire nuts. The broker, surveyor, and I all had a good laugh!

[Chum Bucket]

Off topic, but pretty funny. It's good to laugh at other people's misfortunes, right? This how not to cross the bar at my homeport of Depoe Bay, touted as the worlds smallest harbor. Same bar crossing, one person onboard and someone from shore captured it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTdt3jL-zx4 (the comment at the :45 mark cracks me up everytime)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUwXuHPktc4

Another guy hot dogging across the bar on a calmer day, just for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBlc-eRYoQ

[Pete Fallon]

Kevin,
How far up or down the coast is the nearest inlet. I don't think my heart would take too many entrances and exits out of that rocky inlet. That makes Boynton Beach and Jupiter Inlets look like a cake walk. Is that the inlet that Coocoo's Nest movie fishing trip scene was filmed at.
Pete Fallon

[STraenkle]

That is a really hairy looking inlet, don't think many blow boaters are making that run in those conditions. Holy Crap, as Dug would say....

[Yannis]

Russian roulette .

I wonder how much the insurance premium would be for that ...shelter !

[TailhookTom]

That inlet sure would cause me to need to change my underwear.

Wow!

Tom

[Chum Bucket]

The bar really isn't bad if you pick your days. During summer months, some folks cross the bar in kayaks for fishing derbies. Fishing reefs are less than a 1/2 mile out. When in doubt, don't go out! Depoe Bay is about 1/3-1/2 down the coast. Tillamook Bay is 40-45 miles to the N. Newport, the largest city and port on the Oregon coast, is 11 miles S. If the DB bar is closed which does happen on occasion, can always go to Newport. PITA but better than testing the structural integrity of a Bertram hull on solid rock or drowning. I keep extra underwear onboard in the event something scares me. We don't have hurricane type weather or the storm surge the Gulf or Eastern seaboard experiences. My insurance is only $1200 a year, annual moorage about $1200, and boat stays in year round. Winter storms do create storm surge in the bay. Unless a cleat breaks or a dock line snaps, little chance of damage. It's not unusual to grab a dock line after a big storm only to find that once supple line is now stiff and barely bends from the surge stretching and stressing it. I've been fishing since the 70's out of this little hole in the wall. Yes, same harbor in Cuckoo's nest.

Here's an overhead view.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Depoe ... 43127bfd2f

Hoping to get down to the boat soon. Worried about shorepower crap.

[Tony Meola]

Actually how wide is the channel? Is the issue that because of the swell, you run out of water in the trough and hit bottom?

[Chum Bucket]

On a nice day, most trailer sailors can cross at will. The channel is roughly 40'-50'' wide at low tide. On a minus tide, there might be 6' of water. Before the end of the seawall, it starts to drop off. Therein lies one of the problems crossing this bar. There are reefs to the N and S. Swells typically come from the NW. On a W swell, all that wave energy pushes right at the bar and swirls in the channel which is just about a 1/2 mile. The seawall really helps on the Bertram weather days when swells come from the NW. A seasoned skipper watches the N reef wave series before crossing. Most of the time you can bob just off the seawall and wait for a break in the big wave series. Speed is not always helpful. The bar gets frothy with foam right at the seawall. Higher tides hide the submerged rocks along the wall. Props and rudder efficiency can be a nightmare when the water looks like the head of a beer. Honestly, I pucker everytime I cross even on a nice day. I have a lot of respect for that water just as every boater should.

Here's some footage from the 1980's. Before 'futurecast' forecasting and satellite real time information, the fleet departed on a nice ocean. As the tide changed, the bar went to poop and most of the boats were caught off guard. Keep in mind as you watch this, the USCG had closed the bar but opened it for the charter boats. I heard the "Smitty"
actually had his engine die on his 1st approach. The "Lady Luck" did not hit the ricks, but came damn close. Nowadays, the CG wouldn't even consider opening the bar, period.
http://justkeepfishing.com/Depoestrom.html

Back to the topic, How and where do I tie the galvanic isolator into the bonding system?

[lobsta1]

Kevin,
Go to the following link.
http://yandina.com/acrobats/GalvOwnManual.pdf
Al

P.S.
The B33 site is back up. You will have to sign up as a new member.

[Tony Meola]

http://www.marinco.com/en/4531001

That diagram was confusing. Try downloading this one. It is much clearer. As you will see the isolater goes in line just before the main panel. Then you need to ground the panel, Green wire, the common ground on the engine.

[Marlin]

I suggest u list all your 115 vac devices/things u may ever include on your boating a piece of paper, don't forget frypans, Coffey pots, etc. add up the amperage initial demand if all were fired up at once. That will dictate your service /amperage requirement. I assume u will add in a 115vac circulating pump for the reverse air unit which activates once the unit is turned on. Should u exceed 30 amps, obviously u need to go to 50 amps. My preference would be to go to a single cord vs 2cords but your local conditions may not accommodate the 50 ,they do make splitters if need to go back to 2-30 amp services. 2 electromechanical connection are more prone to have issues in the salt environment than 1 . U need a circuit breaker panel that's 220vac which u will have 2-115vac legs,load each leg with equal amounts of demand. My new boat has 2-50amp shore power cords, I noticed the captain would turn off the hot water heater at nite( cold shower one morning) because he was going to run the washer/dryer during the nite. I looked at the amp gauges and found that the load was not well distributed/balanced,relocated some device to the other servic and now we have warm water. Latest issue is only 1service is working ,at times. Switched the power cords around and found the problem to be in the power cord. Eventually figured out which end was bad ,replaced and problem solved. Moral to the story is, keep it simple ,more power cords can be double the problems, there is a high probability the other cord is ready to fail as well, same environment !

[Chum Bucket]

Hey Al, I think the post I searched for disappeared in the latest hack. Lots of info...poof....gone!

I'm limited to 30 amps at the dock. I'll be at the boat next wknd. Time to make a list of power requirements. That seems to be the first priority.

[IRGuy]

Kevin..

On my B33 there are two 30A circuits with breakers (both double pole single throw) on the stbd side of the cockpit.. one exclusively for the reverse cycle AC system and the other for everything else. I think this is a standard for B33s.. our boats were built after many (most?) of the B31s and I found my original wiring was fine as far as quality of the insulation is concerned. Where my wiring for both 12 V and 120V was screwed up electrically was in the wiring the PO (doofus!) installed himself.

Firstly, he bought about 100' of 2 conductor orange drop cord from Home Depot and used it everywhere, for both 12 volt and 120 volt circuits. Not marine grade wire mind you, and corrosion was already visible at most of the connections.

Next, he eliminated the ground wire in anything he installed. When I found this out I asked him why he eliminated the ground his answer was.. "You are on a boat surrounded by water, so why do you need a ground?"

Finally, whenever something failed he simply cut the wire leading to it, but never removed the old wire.. I found both 12 V and 120 V wires with conductors exposed hanging both in the bilge and all over the engine room.. many still energized.

I have seen your inlet and harbor from the big bridge and can attest to the difficulties a boater would experience entering and leaving.. I have also seen some videos showing how difficult things can get with any serious wave action. Can you say "Extreme pucker factor?"