Packing Nut

[PaulJ]

Time for some advice. B28 with gassers and have a problem with one of the stuffing/packing nuts. It has been leaking and I kept righting it down until it was time to replace the stuffing. The screw tool was too big to fit in the gap and the wadding was so packed in that it was almost impossible to get out. Finally with a very small screwdriver, I was able to pull it all out. However I think I gaulled up the threads on the nut because I can only get the packing nut to screw on about two turns. The locking nut is jammed up in the box and I can't get it to spin without the whole thing spinning in the hose. I've tested it and it not leaking and the nut didn't back out after trial in both forward and reverse.

I've found a Buck Algonquin replacement set up for ~$100 on line. I keep the boat on a lift, so I'm thinking I could pull the shaft and replace it myself. Water under the lift is only 3ft deep at low tide so no problem getting under it. Last time I pulled the shaft, I dropped the strut so that it would clear the rudder. I can easily remove the shaft from the coupling leving the coupling bolted to the tranny and just pull the shaft out enough to remove the old Packing system and install a new one. I'm thinking that I could do the same here and pull the shaft and replace the packing box and then button everything back up.

Questions... should I do this on my own or take it to a yard? Will I have have any alignment problems after doing this? What type of sealant do I use when bolting the strut back on, 5200 or other? Is there anything else I should consider?

PaulJ
1973 B28 - PALADIN

[Navatech]

Is there anything else I should consider?

Dripless shaft seals?!...

[Carl]

Not sure about your setup as I think you could most likely remove coupler from shaft and tranny then slide shaft back till it touches rudder. At that point slide stuffing box off shaft end.

Before doing that...have you sprayed up the thread areas with liquid wrench or rust buster penetrating oil? Those threads are usually very loose and quite forgiving...but that also allows corrosion to build up filling in the space. Id's hit threads you can reach with a wire brush, give a spray, have a beer then give a try...should start moving...give a little more spray and hopefully nuts runs easily. If it does...hit with wire brush and reassemble.

Next I'd try a thread file and cleanup any buggered threads and see if you can get to run free.

If threads are shot and decide to change...never a bad idea to change out that hose between Shaft log and stuffing box. Cheap insurance.

If you pull strut...yes check alignment...but should not have to pull. Otherwise, nothing your touching is going to alter alignment. But if coupling is loose...never really hurts to check before snugging up the bolts.

[PaulJ]

Navatech - thanks but I'm not a big fan of the drip less.

Carl - the only way to fix the packing nut (female side) threads will be to pull the nut off the shaft. Almost no room to get any tool between the shaft and the packing nut threads. The male section looks ok and it acts like its the third or fourth thread in the nut that's gauled. My quick measurement on distance from prop/shaft to the rudder was less than the length of the coupler collar that the shaft fits into. I think that if I unbolt the coupler and loosen the collar and try to do what you suggest, I will not be able to get the coupler all the way off the shaft... Just not enough room. So, if there is not enough room, I'll need to either pull the rudder or drop the strut. I've done both before, multiple times. Dropping the strut is much easier than the rudder IMHO.

[Rawleigh]

Take it out of the rubber hose and put a pipe wrench on the gland to keep it from turning. Put enough packing in it and you may never get down to those threads again.

[STraenkle]

To each there own on the PSS Dripless, but I have had them for 10+ years (changed bellows after 7), never drips, never leaked, never any issue. The only water in the bilge is from rain or spray when running. I went that way after I almost lost the boat. the packing on the old ones dripped, like they should, but after one trip, dripped a lot. The guy next to me at the marina, said the bilge pump came on every few minutes, then stopped about 4 am, when I got on the boat the water was over the cabin floor. Good thing it had very little fuel.

I will never go back to old school wax friction to keep my boat from sinking.

[John F.]

I'd drop the rudder before I pulled the strut. Much easier and no alignment issues.

[Carl]

I'd drop the rudder before I pulled the strut. Much easier and no alignment issues.

Ditto...but unfamiliar with your setup.



Even with wheel off the shaft won't pass rudder? Hate it on those boats.


Chance of shortening the hose and inch or so coupler comes off? Only need a bit of flex...if too short, don't consider.

Strange...3 or 4th thread in causing grief...you tried lube to break up corrosion?

Not a big fan of dripless either. I like the idea...but stick to the KISS method.

[Tooeez]

Hi Paul--seems like a long time since Halloween, especially up here in the frozen north.
My boxes are a derlin-like plastic material, so I don't think the dimensions are the same: but I could replace the box if I removed the coupling and pushed the shaft back to the rudder. But my question is removing that coupling: have you had it off anytime in the recent past? I had to change out a shaft a few years ago, and the only way the coupling came off was to saw off the shaft behind the coupling and take it to the machine shop to have it pressed out. Other than that your idea should work fine, I think. Change the hose for sure while it's off.

[Navatech]

Not a big fan of dripless either. I like the idea...but stick to the KISS method.

Dripless is actually quite simple... It certainly meets my definition of KISS...

[Rawleigh]

I love my PSS!

[Carl]

Dripless is actually quite simple... It certainly meets my definition of KISS...

I used to sell'em and repair'em...simple indeed.
However water supply takes a dump so does the seal. Bellows have had issues with pressure losing seal...aside from adjustment. O-Ring seal to shaft has been so tight people could not remove...whacked with hard super smacker ruining face.
Not overly complicated...but when all was said and done I saved the couple hundred bucks and replaced the flax packing in my 40 year old gland for a buck or so...less as I have rolls sitting on the shelf. The few drops of water in the bilge never bothered me in the slightest. Now my buddy who is neuritic about a clean absolutely dry bilge to the point of breaking out a vacuum and rags to dry...PSS was a no brainer installation even if I had to buy them for him.

[jspiezio]

Now my buddy who is neuritic about a clean absolutely dry bilge to the point of breaking out a vacuum and rags to dry...PSS was a no brainer installation even if I had to buy them for him.

Speaking of which, and to hijack thread a bit, any info on where to buy replacement in-line back flow valve for bilge pumps? Center unit froze last winter and I never replaced. instead I added hose in line, but would like to correct this season.

[PaulJ]

Rawleigh - i will check to see if i can do as you suggest. Not sure if i have enough room to get it to clear the hose, but ill try. The bigger problem is how to fix the threads inside the packing nut. Need to get it off the shaft to work it.

Tooeez - yes it has been a while, and I enjoyed your company. I replaced my plastic boxes for the current Buck Algonquin bronze style about 5 years ago. When I did, we measured twice and cut once. I replaced the shaft logs at the same time and had to build up about 1" thickness on the bottom side of the through hull tunnel to get the new set up to fit with enough space so that I could service the packing nut. Never once thought about what it would take to replace the whole thing, should I need to.

I removed the shaft from the coupling 2 years ago when I had to pull it to get it straightened out. And yes.. The shaft won't clear the rudder even with the wheel off... Need about 3/8" more. At that time, a very experienced member of this board told me to "drop the strut, it's much easier than pulling the rudder." Dropping it was easy peezy, but i was busy and just paid the yard to put it back together, so i dont know how hard that was. Seems simple enough, but I'll need a buddy to be in the boat as I bolt everything together while I stand in the water. And, hope I don't drop anything. :-)

Why don't I want to drop the rudder??? Last September, I had to replace the packing on my port rudder. It took me almost three days! Now, before y'all laugh at me, this is that story....
Rudder was leaking buckets. No more room to tighten on packing. Tried to drop the rudder but could not get the top bearing to let go of the rudder post. Bought a gear puller and succeeded in turning it into a pretzel. Bought a diamond wheel and cold chisel, which finally did the trick. I was able to cut and pound off the $28 top bearing...ugggh. Couldn't get the locking nut to free up as there is no room to work under a B28 rudder shelf. My solution? I now have a new port side rudder shelf, packing nut, top bearing and no more leaking. I really don't want to do that again, at least not this year. But, with the help from this board, I did it all by myself!!!

If I do do it, do I use 5200 or 4200? Should I use tefgel between the shaft and coupling?

Thanks for advice,
PaulJ
1973 B28 - PALADIN

[Navatech]

Speaking of which, and to hijack thread a bit, any info on where to buy replacement in-line back flow valve for bilge pumps?

I'm not a big fan of the check valves... IMHO the impact in actual pumping capacity (20%-30%) is too high... If you really want a dry bilge I would suggest adding a diaphragm pump... That's a positive displacement type of pump and the check valve will have a negligible impact on the pumping capacity...

[Rawleigh]

I used 5200 on my struts. How far back will the shaft slide before the coupling hits the stuffing box?

[PaulJ]

Raleigh, about 1.5" between end of coupling collar and the nut on the box. And the collar on the coupling is about 3.5". That's my delimma. The shaft log and the box are butt matched and joined with the hose, so no room there.

[Tooeez]

Paul, I had another thought last night--bronze is really hard, so what could hit the threads inside the gland hard enough to roll them? It might just be some junk packed into the thread solid enough to stop the male half. I know there is no room, but if you get something like a dental probe with a 90 degree bend, and grind it down so that it fits between the shaft and the gland you may be able to run the probe around the thread--if it stops pick away at it until comes clear. Might be worth a try before taking everything apart.

[PaulJ]

Tooeez...Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. Worth an hour of effort to see. I'm going to work on it some today and see what happens.

PaulJ
1973 B28 - PALADIN

[Rawleigh]

Paul: Loosen the coupling, slide the shaft back and put a socket slightly smaller in diameter than the shaft between the couplings and use longer bolts to carefully and evenly pull the coupling off. Then you could push the shaft back until it hit the rudder. Do you think you could get the gland out in the resulting gap? If so, put it in a vice and use the big wrenches.

[Whaler1777]

Dripless in the 31 new buck algonquins with gore tex in the 35...

[Harry Babb]

Paul
If I am reading and understand the problem correctly.......I understand that the threads inside of the nut are Buggered up and will not screw onto the packing gland.

If this is correct I have a suggestion......first of all, are you sure that you don't have too much packing in the box?

I cannot see how you could have possibly have done major damage to the threads with hand tools while picking out the packing.....but if the threads are damaged (and not cross threaded) try my ole trick and see if it will save you a lot of work.

I would start by once again removing all of the packing so that I could check and correct the full length of the threads.

Screw the Packing nut onto the Packing gland as far as it will go. Then using a plastic hammer with a very hard plastic head (or a ball peen hammer)gently tap on the OD and face of the nut. Then tighten the nut a little more by hand then Tap Tap some more......continue tightening the nut and taping until you get passed the damaged area.....your just reforming the nut threads against the box threads.

I have done this to make dinged up threads go together with good results.

Hope this works for ya......and I agree that removing the Strut should be a last resort.

hb

[PaulJ]

Harry,
You understand correctly. The threads inside the nut are buggered. I did remove all the new packing and tried to screw on without packing and only got the two turns on it before it jammed up. Backed it off and decided to pack in some stuffing and screwed it on the two turns until it locked up. Not leaking (now) and have sea trailed with no leaks. It works for now, until I have to service it. May try as yo say with hammer.

I went down to my local yard yesterday and talked with the head mechanic who I've befriended over the years. He is familiar with the boat and says the two of us could drop the rudder and pull shaft and replace box in a couple hours. Weather down here has been snotty and they're not real busy so I may do it rather than wait.

Good news is all my other maintenance is done. New filters, oil, fluids, CX'ed everything, cleaned everything, ready for warm weather.

PaulJ
1973 B28 - PALADIN

[Charlie J]

paul
the packing nut should not be to tight as to not have any water dripping
it should be a very small drip, if not you could burn the shafts

[PaulJ]

Rawleigh and Tooeez...

Followed both of your suggestions and was finally able to fix it. I used PB Blaster and was able to jam a pipe wrench on the flange part of the packing base. Using another pipe wrench and some "persuasion" was finally able to get the lock nut to turn. Spun the lock nut to the end of the male threads where it got tight again. Worked the lock nut off with lots of force. Turned out the threads on the male housing on the underside were buggered up. Put the lock nut back on, with some force. Repeated this four times until the lock nut spun on by hand.

I removed all of the new packing from the nut, and tried to hand tighten the packing nut. It jammed up and so I backed it off. Bought a set of different types of picks from Northern Tools for about $3.00, and used it to clean out the nut threads... And what do you know, a 1/4" piece of old packing was stuck inside. I pulled it out and re-packed. Was able to spin on and adjust by hand and tighten up with the lock nut.

Perfect solution. It took me about 2 hours to get it done, so I spent the rest of the weekend burning fuel and drinking beer. Weather down here this weekend was mid 80's and blue skies. Ethanol free gas is $3.50 a gal. Time to start having fun!

PaulJ
1973 B28 - PALADIN

[Tooeez]

Great! There are few things better than being resigned to a major repair job, and then finding an easy solution to the problem.
Save some of the weather (and beer) for me; we finally decided to pull the trigger, so family, boat and I will be permanently down your way come September.

[Rawleigh]

Good job!