It may be time! Engine troubles

[Carl]

Pete-
I understand the need for putting off any unnecessary financial transactions till you can grasp the new hand you have been dealt.
It may not be the most attractive addition to the 31, but maybe a cockpit cover/canopy so your wife can enjoy the large cockpit, ocean breezes and views. I am on a ipad at the moment otherwise id supply you a picture. But a quick search for "Dave Kosh" and his boat Can Do It in the image section of the old board shows a pretty effective cover for short money.
Sorry to hear about your new challenge.
Carl

[PeterPalmieri]

Thanks Carl, I'm considering it, I was able to find some photos. Nothing is off the table at this point.

[Tooeez]

Let me put my 2 cents in from my experience repowering my 28. I had 305 Mercruisers with 3,317 hours when I pulled them (starboard engine cracked a head, and I didn't want to invest in repairing 30 year old engines). I researched all the options: diesels ( even if you got the engines for nothing the modifications required would still cost a fortune), new fuel injected Crusaders ($32,000 just for the engines and gears, and lots of modifications to make them fit where the Mercrusiers lived), used take-outs and rebuilds, and new base motors. In the end I went with new base carburated 350's from Michigan Motorz, in part because almost everything from the old motors bolts right up to the new motors. I took the old motors out in the fall and brought them to my garage and had the new motors delivered to the garage over the winter. I took off all the old mounts, housings and brackets, cleaned and repainted them. I had my trannies rebuilt, put on new risers, oil coolers, seawater pumps, starters and alternators, and motor mounts, and put everything back together. The bottom line: 2 completely new motors with all the above new parts, ready to drop in for a total of around 14,000 for both. Of course, that doesn't include what I spent rebuilding the motor compartment and upgrading wiring, fuel system, instruments, etc.--but that is another story . . .

It was a lot of work, but also very satisfying. Michigan Motorz was great to work with, and I am pretty sure they have big blocks available.

[PaulJ]

Tooeez.....
I did EXACTLY the same things. The guys at Michigan Motorz were great. I think my total for parts, including tranny rebuild was ~$12K, but I already had some new spare parts. The hardest part of the whole job was the remodel/rework of the engine beds and rewiring. I did mine in the heat and humidity of the FL summer, with no shade! I also had all my running gear removed, reworked and reinstalled, including all new stuffing boxes and through-hulls. The biggest single item for me was the yard bill... 4 months from start to finish working on it only on weekends.

Built up engines in my garage, started them and tuned them by rigging up a make-shift fuel tank, large igloo cooler for fresh water input, PVC pipes to catch the exhaust/water out the back. without mufflers, was able to wake up all the gear heads in the neighborhood as we stood around and watched them run.

The most rewarding experience in a long time. Enjoying now on the water. Couldn't have done it without this board, especially Capt. Patrick and Bruce!

Paul J
1973 B28 - PALADIN (350 GM 5.7L, FWC, 4bbl Quadrajet, Thunderbolt IV, Velvet Drive 1.52)

[PeterPalmieri]

Bob and Chris Thanks for giving me some options on RTOs, sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet.

The loud knock on the top of the motor was fixed, I didn't ask for details but it revealed a lower knock that may be bad news.

I do appreciate all the input and I'm still not sure what I will do if these motors are toast, I recently talked myself into thinking they would be ok.

[MarkD]

Paul, Tooees and Peter:

Very similar story this winter. 260 HP Mercruisers in my B28, one went belly up and the other had 2200 hours so I decided it was time. I did a lot of research and ultimately went with Michigan Motorz for two "Gold" Packages, which came with new 5.7 Vortec engines, Mercruiser Exhaust, new Delco ignitions, High rise manifolds and Edlebrock carb's. I moved over the fresh water cooling systems and had to make a small modification for the electric fuel pumps. One of them was counter rotating. I also added the inboard package for a couple hundred bucks. The engines and all the trimmings were about $11,500 with shipping and then I decided to have the gears rebuilt, etc. I dropped them in 6 weeks ago, they started right up and I now have 25 hours on them. They put out 315 vs. 260 and the boat is faster and smoother at the same rpm's. I've been happy with the decision and MichiganMotorz has been good to work with. I'd recommend them. Good luck Peter! You have too many options and too many unknowns!!!

Mark

[mike ohlstein]

Bob and Chris Thanks for giving me some options on RTOs, sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet.

The loud knock on the top of the motor was fixed, I didn't ask for details but it revealed a lower knock that may be bad news.

I do appreciate all the input and I'm still not sure what I will do if these motors are toast, I recently talked myself into thinking they would be ok.

Not sure what that means, but it was always the 'lower knock' that was the problem. I still think that the bang that you heard was the sound of a broken connecting rod going through the side of the engine. That's how all of the oil wound up in the bilge.

The 'upper knock' was probably a valve or valves coming into contact with a piston that wasn't moving because its connecting rod was broken.

No?

[PeterPalmieri]

I think you are right Mike but I'm not sure.

[Carl]

Pete...Lets think about that link you put up about a pair of 2106Bt's for 11K each on Ebay. Not a bad deal...but you do not know condition and maintenance history on motors plus you still need to buy transmissions couplings, shafts, struts, Shaft log, exhaust system, props..and the harness.

There is a pair of RTO's for sale on this board, 210HP 6Bt Cummins @ 13,500 each.
They come complete with transmission, harnesses, shafts, couplings, struts, stuffing boxes, exhaust...and a hull...a blue hull.

Use that one as a RTO and install everything you need on yours...if you feel attached to it...or move into his boat and make it yours.
Either way when your done you have a hull to sell.

Keep all options open....while dumping alot of cash into a boat is not much of an investment...I have always felt if you can dump money in and be able to sell for close to what you laid out...it's not a bad decision....walking away even from a boat is great in my book.

You know the history...and what better way to honor a friend then take on his journey.


Sorry...I know choices can be a pain.

But no choices is worse.

[mike ohlstein]

There is a pair of RTO's for sale on this board, 210HP 6Bt Cummins @ 13,500 each.
They come complete with transmission, harnesses, shafts, couplings, struts, stuffing boxes, exhaust...and a hull...a blue hull.

From the looks of the pictures, it might come with a load of tackle.

[PeterPalmieri]

You guys are killing me.

Was hoping to drop by the yard this morning and find out what's going on but it didn't happen. I like the idea of bolting my parts to a new block or buying the crusaders Chris offered me. It is the least expensive option which is pretty important at the moment. Maybe not the best long term move but I'm in the middle of some work being done at home.

Pete

[Carl]

LOL...

A good deal is only a good deal if you can afford it.
Whether monetary, time or just the stress factor of having to deal with something else.



Peter-
Whatever you decide is the right decision for you and your family...

[John F.]

Peter-

If that's what you want/need to do, then do it. There will always be another deal out there.

John

[captbone]

Thought of you.


http://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-forum ... 895-a.html

[PeterPalmieri]

Thanks for all the advice guys I ordered a new block with all internals, need to put on my oil pan, valve covers and peripherals. Hoping to be back in the water in two weeks.

Here was my thought process.

New gas motors - 502s or 496 fuel infected neither come with reverse rotation, so at 15k plus new gears it puts it way to close to diesel. New gas motors with reverse rotation included 454s or 383 strokers (all info as per the Michigan motorz guys). Again not interested in spending 20k on carb motors and all the old stuff. Got some prices on new cummins 220s 17k plus gears and all the other work, considered taking a loan and going that route but I'm not ready, not a bad price actually got to add 6k per motor for the 260s. I was ready 6 months ago before my wife and I decided to do some home improvements, so I am on a new 5 year plan.

Also was considering a pair of RTO crusaders that Chris H offered me, after going through what we'd need to swap off the old motors or change out on the boat I decided this new block was a better option.

[Stephan]

Pete-
I've been very sorry to read about these troubles. Good for your that you now have a plan that is the right one for you.
Would you consider oil analysis on the good engine to help complete the picture of what your needs are? A single test is unlikely to give you a full picture of the engine but might provide some piece of mind.
Best,
Stephan

[PeterPalmieri]

Stephan,

The starboard motor (the one that works) is original 3000+ hours 1985 Merc 454, it's a roll of the dice but has given me little problems over the past 4 years I've owned the boat. The motor has been gone over (no oil analysis) but doesn't seem to have any apparent issues. If she goes tomorrow at least I know all my options.

[ljmauricio]

Pete, please clarify for me. You stated 4000+ hours on the "good" engine. Is that right? I have 1700 on gas 454 Crusaders andI thought I was getting close to the end. I had no idea 4000 hrs was possible with gas engines.

[PeterPalmieri]

I believe I misspoke on 4000 and it's over 3000. I replaced the hour meters when I got the boat 4 years ago and I think I had 2700 hours when I got them. I will have to dig out my survey to be certain.

They are 1985 454s, the boat sat unused for 3 or 4 years. The port motor took the brunt of the ethanol problems. The thought was that the pickup for the sport motor was lower and picked up most of the sludge leaving the starboard motor without issue. But hats just a guess.

[Carl]

I do not know how many hours you'll get on gas motors...but I can say I had over 3000hrs on my 440's before I pulled heads off as I had issues...but turned out not to be heads but ethanol.

Dad had about the same on his 440's when he pulled them to convert to diesel. He thought motors were getting tired...but turned out to be ethanol issues for him as well.

Both my dads 440's and motors in my boat had about 1800-2000 hours on them in 84. They were rebuilt then...Clock was started fresh after that.
Say what you will about 440's...I like them.
454's are supposed to be better...so who knows how many hours they will hold up for with proper care.

Down side of our numbers...lots and lots of trawling hrs....lots.



Peter-
Short block sounds like a great decision...starting with fresh internals...use your externals. You get to avoid inheriting other peoples headaches...don't have to worry about a less then perfect rebuild.
It may not be a diesel...but does not come with a diesel price tag either. Gives you time to deal with current issues at hand while you can continue to use the boat...best of luck!
Carl

[John F.]

Peter-

I may have missed it, but did the mechanic find. Broken what? Just curious.

John

[PeterPalmieri]

John not certain. Something is banging around in there and at some place the oil is leaking out. Didn't bother wasting time and money on an autopsy. Maybe when he strips it he will get a better look.

Just stopped down and the motor is out of the boat and is sitting in the shop floor.

[PeterPalmieri]

Looks to be in decent condition, wiring is a bit messy but thought you guys may see something I don't.

[Tooeez]

As far as engine hours go I have come to believe that the predictions of how long engines last are made by and for the benefit of the people who sell engines. Years ago if an engine had 1,000 hours we considered it about done--but that was when almost all engines were saltwater cooled. They didn't wear out, they rotted out. Now, with freshwater cooling, I think how you use the engine dictates how long it lasts. Don't push it too hard and regular oil changes keep them going and going.
When I pulled the smallbocks out of my boat they were 32 years old and had 3,317 hours on the clocks. I had water in one cylinder on the stbd engine and did not want to invest in repairing an engine that old. But, they both ran fine, had between 135-150 lbs compression in each cylinder and would turn up 3900 rpm WOT. But for the water problem they would still be in the boat.
The most hours I know of personally was in a charter boat repowered with a pair of Chevy 350's. It ran 5 to 7 days a week from April to December, and had over 5,000 hours when the boat was sold with no major problems--just water pumps and tune-ups.

[Stephan]

Pete-
Is there a stopper in the exhaust? I would be inclined to tie up or make some other arrangement where the exhaust hoses definitely can not flop down below the waterline. Like the way I would do it if I was ever required to explain it to the insurance man.
My boat had a battery box (bin) like yours. I would dutifully strap the batteries in tight - then I realized the whole thing was just screwed to the plywood table that it sat on. Hauling the batteries out and through bolting the box is a pain in the ass job with the engine in place but I think it might be quick and easy for you now. Also, with all the engine's dead end electrical connections lying about, might this be a good time to take off all those battery connections other than the bilge pumps and charging wire?
In Providence there is an auto electrical shop, General Armature, they will bench test alternators and starter motors. I'm sure there is a similar shop near you. I've had then check the alternators each year and a new diode er somthin' has saved me headaches and bucks. I've been planning on doing the starter motors but have been stymied as they are harder to remove. I think I've paid something like $40 for them to do the checks on the alternators. Perhaps that would be effort well spent while the accessories are off the old block?
I hope this project -passes quickly for you and to see you posting pictures out there slaying stripers again soon.
S

[Carl]

Pete-
In Providence there is an auto electrical shop, General Armature, they will bench test alternators and starter motors. I'm sure there is a similar shop near you. I've had then check the alternators each year and a new diode er somthin' has saved me headaches and bucks. I've been planning on doing the starter motors but have been stymied as they are harder to remove. I think I've paid something like $40 for them to do the checks on the alternators. Perhaps that would be effort well spent while the accessories are off the old block?
S

Very true....

...however if you have the luck we have had at times.
Dad had his 440's pulled to rebuild years ago. As starters and fuel pumps are a real major pain in the arse to remove and replace in his boat he decided to buy new fuel pumps and have the Starters rebuilt.

The day we installed and ready to crank up the motors...one starter wouldn't crank motor and the fuel pump was a dud on the other engine. Thankfully dad had asked his friend Nick an ace mechanic to help him with the install. We were ruling out the Starter as being a problem as it was newly rebuilt and worked before the rebuild and the Fuel Pump was right out of the box. Nick just humored my dad as he started to pull starter...when he put on deck and jumped starter...and it just moaned and turned at a snails pace...it was relief and instant outrage. At least we had the old fuel pump on hand for the other side. Installed, a few cranks and that motor came to life.

All in all...not a bad time to do maintenance on those hard to reach parts.

[White Bear]

3200 hours on a 350 Crusader FWC (454ci) when it finally needed a rebuild. Probably not typical, but it worked for me,

[Marlin]

Peter, I'd make time to clean up that wiring on the battery post, put in a power post or buss bar to get those wires( looks like grounds) off the battery post,corrosion ,oxidation ,vibration, ganging multiple wires is an incident. waiting to happen. All my boats and every boat I was ever responsible for ,only had 2wires(cables)going to the battery, ground back to the block and positive going to explosion proof batt switch,the bilge pumps,battery chargers are wired directly to the batt switch hot side. Today's wireing principles also require a fuse within 7" of the batt for cabling /wiring sized to protect the wire/cable, even thought it's still allowed to run the positive directly to the starter solenoid unprotected, it's highly recommended to fuse these cables, when I re wired my 31' ,every numbered wire went from the device either to a switch or buss bar of some sort,I also protected all the wires by sizing the breaker to the gauge size(remember to double the length for the return ) as well as inline fusing at the device via a buss bar, there are no butt connectors in my boat simply because u can't diagnose easily,If at all. If u can read power at the buss, u know where your problems aren't ,I've seen guys punch a small hole in a wire to get their meter probe in contact with copper ,not good,my opinion

[PeterPalmieri]

Thanks Marlin that's a good idea. Not sure I can do get all that done but certainly adding a buss bar and getting those grounds off the battery is gonna be on my list before the motor goes back in.

[Rawleigh]

Peter: While mine were out I did as marlin said, but also brush painted the bilge and stringers with Whitecote White from POR 15. it worked great and covered well. VERY slick and durable. I scrubbed it good and sanded the rough spots, but did not get to technical with it. It flows out well and goes on easily if you follow the directions.

http://www.por15.com/WhiteCote_p_44.html