New member, getting started

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 21st, '14, 20:02

Hello guys! Took me awhile to get pointed in this direction; guess the b25 site is down is registration here is different. They said you guys won't discriminate too bad if I'm into the b25 instead of 31.

Anyways, I'm 24 years old, soon to be married in May, mad looking to do a pretty serious overhaul of a 1960,s b25 whenever I can find one for free or cheap. I have never owned my own boat before, but dad owned one when I was younger for a few years. I want to do all of the work myself....even if it means having to do things over and over again until it's right.

The reason for this is because: I can't afford a turn key Bert like I want, I want the challenge, I want it to be the way I want it (not somebody else's clutter), and I want something to pass down to my kids eventually that they can say their father built it.

I plan on getting the mark II flybridge style, adding a bracket with prob a 225 Yamaha, and basically keeping it simple.

I have been researching and lurking in forums such as this for probably already 6 months specifically for bert 25's....but on boats in general for about a year. I have some basic ideas on the different things (fiberglass, painting, replacing gas tanks, etc). And I know I have a lot more to go.

School started back (I work in public high school here) and I can't browse these forums there. Are there any good (up to date) books(or material I can print) to read on my downtime? Or any great links/post you'd like to mention would be great too.

Also, do you think somebody could give me a rough estimate on what you think a total build such as mine would cost if I keep it simple, yet nice. Plan on a $5-7k used outboard.

Or any other thoughts would be welcomed as well.

By the way, I'm located in Pensacola Florida.

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 21st, '14, 20:05

This is pretty much exactly what I have in mind (except bracket mounted, not transom). I'm a very big fan of captbone's old boat.

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10775

Terry Frank · Post by **Terry Frank** » Aug 21st, '14, 20:31

Buy Walter's 31. You will be way ahead of the game and it's a 31.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 21st, '14, 20:36

Corey

Glad you made it on. What you will find is that the members here will let you know when a 25 comes up. But think about what Terry said. A 31 might be too much boat for you know, but you will grow into it.

A lot of cheap 31's out there with diesels but you can still restore it to your liking. The saying around here is the money is in the iron.

As far as material, the west system is always a good read to learn fiber glass. Also check out the tips section here and lastly ask questions.

You will get answers.

Oh and if Mike gives you grief ignore him. He is our resident bad guy.

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 21st, '14, 20:51

I have thought about a 31'. But as you said, its too much boat for me. I want to be able to trailor it. Also...thats a pretty big difference at the gas pump. I want something I can troll around for days and not hit my wallet too hard. I would rather take it out everyday then have to save up for a gas tank and make one trip once a month. Lol, I dont have much to spare. Im hoping I can get the boat up and going with electronics and all for about 7-8k...and then add on the motor and work on interior as I go...about my budget.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Aug 21st, '14, 21:33

Welcome! I have to chime in on this subject...voice of reason? maybe, but based on your posts I think you might appreciate some perspective.

I've been working on my 25 for 5years now and it will take another year or so (stock answer) and another $40k+ to get it finished. That $40k is just for power and paint. Everything else I consider small bills that I don't count because it hurts to think about it. Lesson 1: You need LOTS of time and LOTS of money to restore an old boat. Perspective - I spent $2500 rebuilding the trailer my boat was resting on before I ever turned a wrench on the boat.

Part of the time factor, at least in my situation, is having a reasonable place to work on the boat. You must have a covered area to work on the boat that is close by. John Patnovich told me this 5 years ago, and it's true. Very difficult to be productive if you have to commute to the boat. My hull is in North Carolina and bits and pieces are in my garage here. Lesson 2: You need a BIG workshop (and LOTS of tools).

Trailering - B25 is 10 feet wide at the shoulders. It can be towed with a permit in VA and other states. I have towed it back and forth to North Carolina a couple of times and it is doable, but not comfortable. Lesson 3: trailering is a PITA with a wide boat.

So...while I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for restoring an old boat, especially a Bertram, you need to understand the commitment required. The classifieds are littered with half finished projects. I'm not trying to be negative....these are just lessons I learned along the way.

Consider a B20 - either a project or a good runner. You can find runners for short money. Great ride, much easier to trailer around, and single engine is a lot less money than 2!!! Ha!

Cam

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Aug 21st, '14, 21:44

Welcome aboard, Corey; all who appreciate old Bertram's are welcomed here regardless of size. The guys here offer a wealth of knowledge, so at least process the advice rendered even if you decide to go in a different direction. Don't hesitate to to call or visit some of the guys to kick around ideas, and enjoy the adventure.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 21st, '14, 21:58

Corey

Cam is dead on about having the boat near by. When I did mine, I had to travel an hour and half to work on it, weekends only, and I still am not where I want to be, but it runs, I fish it and work on it.

If the boat was near by it would have been finished a while back. Plus had family issues with illness that forced me to skip working on the boat at points in time.

The 25 is a heck of a boat. The 20 and 25 are probably the best riding boats in their class. A lot can be done with them. Just be aware of what you are getting in to.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Aug 21st, '14, 22:11

Welcome aboard Corey

You will find good advise as well as friendship here in our "Sandbox"

To requote something I first read right here on B31 someone once said (and I agree) "There is nothing more satisfying than fooling around with old boats"

hb

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 21st, '14, 22:43

$40k for the power?

I think we are on different budgets... and definitely in different tax brackets ha. I know I can find some 2005 outboard in excellent shape around here for $5-7k and can hook it up myself (with my bud). And for me I believe thats the biggest item price wise.

The boat will be kept in my front yard for most of the time. If need be I can keep it at the boat yard about 1/2 mile down the road. So I could easily get 40 hrs a week working on my boat if I wanted. So time isnt a big concern....just the money.

The link I posted of capt bones old boat is basically the "goal" I want to get my build to first. At that point the outside is done...and its functional. I plan on replacing gas tank whether its good or bad with an aluminum one. So that cost has been factored in. I honestly think I can get my first goal accomplished with about $12,000 into it including thr motor.....if I do all the work myself and no electronics (other than bare min requirements.

If you guys insist that Im a complete looney, then please tell me... but please explain why....perhaps Im forgetting all about the flux capacitor or something else I overlooked. I hear people say things such as......"...well it cost $40k alone for repower" which immediately makes me think im in too much and should bail. But then I have to think....we are obviously on two diff pages. I just want a single used outboard....and you could be going with two brand new diesels. So, if you do disagree...I at least want to know specific reasons so I can judge if why you disagree matches with what my goal/idea is.

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 21st, '14, 22:47

And I wasnt aware of the permit requirement...ill have to look into it here in florida. Are they required every time you move the boat...or like a once a year thing?

The reason I want to trailor is because I live just a couple miles from the boat ramp near our pass. So just by owning a t railor I avoid the very ex poo ensive docking fees here...and it stays out of the water.

dcasey10 · Post by **dcasey10** » Aug 22nd, '14, 00:15

You have good taste if you want to have a retro bertram. (but outboards... not the classic bertram look)

I just did a 31 exterior restoration, and although a bit bigger than a 25 it is a crazy amount of work. I wish you luck.

dcasey10 · Post by **dcasey10** » Aug 22nd, '14, 00:20

Also I hope the bride to be is very understanding about you spending "excessive" time and money working on the boat. My girlfriend almost gave me the "It's one or the other talk"

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Aug 22nd, '14, 05:41

Heed Dcasey's advice! He is wise beyond his years. Chase your new bride around the house and carry on like crazed rabbits. The time will come when she will INSIST that you need nto get a hobby, just so she can get away from you. That's when you spring her with the idea of restoring an old Berty.

Brew needs to re-post his famous "I must rebuild a 31 Bertram". It is an instructional video on how to deal with you significant other when you decide you want to take on such a project.

Paul J
1973 B28 - PALADIN

John Swick · Post by **John Swick** » Aug 22nd, '14, 06:16

Not trying to put a wet blanket on a good fire you got going and I get the sentiment, but....
Take Whatever you're budgeting for time and money and double it (at least - probably triple the time line).
That's a pretty universal 'rule of thumb' when doing most DIY reno /resto projects (homes, cars, etc).
Life tends to get in the way.....

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Aug 22nd, '14, 06:43

Corey. $40k is for power and paint. New, of course.

Capt Bone's old boat is a good target for a "reasonable" cost ride, but I had the impression you were going full on custom. A full custom hull-up high quality build will run close to $100k if you do much of the work yourself. You can work down from there.

Find a good runner and enjoy it!

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 22nd, '14, 07:08

Welcome. Hulls (B20 and B25) can be had really cheap. How much it'll cost to redo is up to you. It can get real expensive fast if you pay for the work. If not, you can keep costs down. I don't know the trailer rules in FL. 8'6" beam is standard interstate without a permit. In some states you can get an annual oversize permit. The B20 is a great boat. I love mine, and go out on it all the time. Easy 30 knt. cruise at 4200 rpm with a 1994 200 hp Yamaha. B20s are small and easy to tow. If you want to stay at 8'6" or less, another great boat to redo is a Formula 233. Again, hulls can be had for real cheap--or free.

You have to really want to do the work. I have a day off, and will probably spend at least 6 hours working on my B31--maybe more. I'm looking forward to it. I'd rather do that than golf or whatever. If you don't like working on boats, you better have deep pockets. Boats have come way down in price, while the costs of parts and labor have not.

Give a B20 some thought. They're great hulls, and there just isn't much to them. Easy to trailer, easy to store, easy to power, and just a great ride.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Aug 22nd, '14, 08:24

"If you want to stay at 8'6" or less, another great boat to redo is a Formula 233"

I second this. I had a formula for years back in the 70's and 80's. Great boat. Mine was a bit underpowered with a 165 Mercruiser but it cruised at 20 at around 2900rpm. I wasn't looking to be a race boat, just to cruise comfortably offshore. A day's fishing 20 miles offshore usually netted me about 3-4 gallons per hour.

I'm sure the B20 would yield the same or better performance.

Regards,

Joe

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 22nd, '14, 08:49

Welcome aboard, take a look and see Capt bone's 25 is still available. It's a great price and a good platform for what you are looking to do..

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 22nd, '14, 09:15

Welcome aboard!

You asked so here is my .02.

Buy a boat you can use and enjoy...it will give you and the new bride a reason to dive into an overhaul project. Or you may decide to just do a project here and there as you use the boat and decide to tailor it to your needs and wants. It will give new perspective on what is entailed in a restoration. Both from a time and $$ perspective....it is eye opening when you want to do something relatively simple.

Paint the cockpit deck...a couple days to sand and prep filling holes and gouges and fairing them out Big 20 bucks for sanding pads and fillers...buy EZ release masking tape in several widths 30 bucks, buy cheaper end two part marine paint 100 bucks, buy textured non skid paint, 100 bucks with shipping, buy new SS hardware 100 bucks...add on a few brushes, a roller and painting a deck is not a cheap project....but it is.

I say this as I see guys buy old boats every year...they are all Gung-Ho about the restoration...they rip everything apart, start scraping and prepping...a few pieces start to go back, ...then it sits and sits and sits some more. End of the season comes and the yard monkey comes out with a chain saw and a dumpster gets filled with chunks of fiberglass and iron.

I know for me...projects are more of a necessity to keep in shape, upgrade or restructure to my liking and use...I have very little joy in the actual work involved anymore...and it is work.

Whatever you decide, welcome again.
Carl

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 22nd, '14, 09:48

dcasey10 wrote:My girlfriend almost gave me the "It's one or the other talk"

Women come and go......

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Aug 22nd, '14, 12:00

Thats cold Mike.............I like it!

Corey,
Back in 2004 I could have bought a road ready 25 FBC for $24,000.00 ish (the value at the bargaining table has fallen way off since then) and I opted to buy a hull project for, lets say less than an 8th of that. I figured if I got away with $15,000.00 I would come out roughly at the same money and learn boat inside and out. Lets just say I was wrong by better than half. Its a labor of love not a bargain. I absolutely love my 25 for me it is trailer-able and I run it all over the place. It is 10' a midships so if you have toll ways or narrow road issues it will be a problem for you. I had a gentleman from the old 25 board tell me one time that he too would run his all over God's creation and never lost a moment sleep. Its 8 at the back and takes a really sharp trooper to catch it.

If you are doing a resto plan on a couple of years at least. Unless you have endless time and money to go quicker. As said above regarding rabbits, stay at it while its smooth. Its gonna get wrinkley and less interested in you all to quick.

Good luck!

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 22nd, '14, 12:09

The lil lady and I have been together 2 years already (will be almost 3 by the time we wed)..so we are pretty solid. Weve alreadu bought a nice house in our budget...and plan to wipe all debt before the wedding. Hell, she would prefer I just get the damn boat so I stop telling her I want a boat all the time ha. I really enjoy projects and working on things...even when they are things that im not interested in. So I think ill really enjoy the actual work of a boat (only mine though).

I really think im stuck on the flybridge b25. For around here (Destin/pcola) I think its perfect and thr biggest I can go (to restore/maintain/operate). Ive thought about getting a smaller boat at first to practice on....but honestly, I would know in my mind I dont really want that boat and would potentially get burned out. I just dont care for the 20's. I figured I would just get the boat I want now and only do one resto project and be set with a solid boat for many years. If im unhappy with something...i can always redo it.

And capt bones boat has already sold. If I had the funds at the time I would have grabbed it...but it was also all the way in new York. Ive already picked his brain a lot about his boat!

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 22nd, '14, 12:15

Got to have a hobby. Sounds like you've got a plan. Good luck with everything. If you plan on having kids, finish the boat before the first arrives. 25s with outboards come up for sale now and then. Wait and be ready.

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 22nd, '14, 12:57

Lol that was actually our arrangement! I told her id give her a kid if I got a boat! I was joking that I would name the boat "first born" because thats what I had to trade for the boat ;)

I told her boat (and any other toy) before kids....or we will never ever ever see that toy! I know that much at least haha.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Aug 22nd, '14, 13:52

Corey, I have owned a 25 FB, great boat, only it had twin 318's so I sold it to my mechanic and bought a 20' Baron. Awesome boat, so was the 25.

I hear you with the wanting a hobby, I hear you with the wanting it your own way without someone else's ideas and clutter, you sound a lot like me at 28 years old.

The best advice on used boats came from Carl. Buy one that works right now, Use it. Learn what you like, learn what you don't like. You will have plenty of time spent repairing, upgrading, refurbishing re-wiring and using the boat that the hobby part will be well satisfied.

Don't worry about the width for trailering, you get used to it and it won't seem wide to you after a couple of trips. If you ever get stopped, beg forgiveness, "geez, why would they have sold me the trailer if it was too wide to tow, where do I get one of those permits?"

If you buy a useable boat that someone else has put some money into, then you extract some of that value through use and by not doing that part of the restoration.

A lot of restorations are cosmetic focused: Paint, cabin, teak, upholstery expensive and nice to have and don't prop up the value in the used market so look for one of those. If you are dead set on a single outboard (which can be quite economical) then you don't really care about the power. If you get one or two seasons, great r start your project when the motors become unreliable or when you find a screaming deal on the perfect used outboard.

I am strongly in the camp of keep your powder dry and get ready to pounce. Know what you want, have cash in hand and when the right boat comes make a cash offer, grab it and be prepared to drive to go get it. I trailer my 20 1,800 miles each way every summer, you get used to it pretty quickly.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 22nd, '14, 15:25

Rocket and Carl give DAMNED GOOD ADVICE.

I've owned Alchemy for pushing 17 years now. She and I have been through a lot together. I wanted a project and 17 years later I've still got one, though she has transformed from a hobby to work. And I still do it, but its work.

Youth has its benefits, but don't ignore the value of experience. Not that I am telling you what to do, I am not intending to. But I speak from experience here, and so do the guys.

Don't worry about the trailering either. A big boat is a big boat. I pull a 25' Whaler around occasionally. You do get used to it. Most important to have a solid tow vehicle!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 22nd, '14, 16:16

mike ohlstein wrote:
Women come and go......

That reminds me of a song by Lily Von Stup.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Aug 22nd, '14, 18:40

I like this post......brings back memories of my "Dream Boat"......

The only thing that can compare with my excitment the day I purchased DeNada.....was the day Brewester posted 2 Cummins RTO's......and I sealed the deal on the engines.

Enjoying projects on these boats (no matter how large or small) sure beats the hell out of working....

Total cost is certainly a consideration.....but should not be over-rated.....ya cannot put a price on "Satisfaction"

Its not so much the total money that it cost as it is the frequency that ya have to spending the money......at 24 years old, Corey, you have plenty of time..........

........GO BUY the BOAT! ! ! ! ......and enjoy your dream! ! !

hb

scot · Post by **scot** » Aug 22nd, '14, 19:47

Corey,

Welcome to the sand box. All good comments, but do what you want to do... you are more than likely going to any way :-)

You can buy a b25 and get it together on the cheap if you are resourceful and energetic and have a bit of skills. These guys definitely will instruct you on "best practices" and the best materials and there is a wealth of knowledge here, but there are always other less expensive options. A lot depends on "your" expectations for the boat.

Yes, there are plenty of used, good running outboards that would give you years of service on the cheap (keep a tool box onboard). The key to making it happen within a tight budget is knowing exacting what you are after then holding your water until you find the bits and pieces within your budget.
It's my opinion that you can a project b25, repower with an used OB, misc used parts and have it in the water for $10-$15K, assuming you do ALL THE WORK YOURSELF. Lots of used boat stuff in your part of the country. It will not be the fastest or the slickest boat afloat, but it will get you on the water.

Look for a late 60s Mark II, I/O boat as a starting point. They have the fiberglass box stringers and most I have crawled all over are structurally useable "as is". Make sure the decks are solid. Past that you can manage on the cheap.

NOTE: These are comments from a guy that has been building a 25 on the cheap for 7-8 years LOL.. so I may not be the best place for words of wisdom, as I am addicted to building projects. You may want to actually use your boat!

Good luck, welcome aboard.

John Vyn · Post by **John Vyn** » Aug 23rd, '14, 10:51

HI Corey,

I have owned boats for 50 years. I started small and grew with the boats. The bigger the boat the bigger the budget needs to be. And if you want your significant other to participate (and you DO want that) start with something that can be used in between projects. The more she enjoys the boat the more she will be understanding of the expense and hours. As far as expense goes, and knowing that you can do all the labor, remember it is the nickels and dimes that really add up. When I plan a project I usually add to the budget 50% to 100% of the cost of the major Items for the small stuff. And you don't want to use cheap fasteners, hose clamps, and fittings. I bought my B31 4 weeks ago and have invested $7,000 in the engine cooling, $6,000 in thru hulls and new rudders and my new aluminum tank is on its way. Approved gas hose is $5 per foot!!

But at the end of the day, sitting on YOUR boat when it is standing tall, there is almost nothing better in the world,except grand children that love boating too.

Good luck and happy boating.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Aug 23rd, '14, 17:31

Corey,

Welcome to the club house.
The guys have given lots of really good advise. One thing that strikes me as vey true is get something you can use from day one. Fix things and make improvements as you go. My boat had some issues with the iron and my mechanic skills fell short. I spent the first year on the hill. Down here we can work on the boats all year, it is the heat that slows me down. Not a day went by when there was not cursing and I was wishing I had a usable boat. I was fortunate that my then girlfriend was with me after work and on weekends putting the boat together. She is my wife now and she puts up with a lot of crap. Just ask her!

I think I paid around 23K for the boat. It was the cheapest 28 on the market in S Florida at the time. I am well over 100K into the boat and I would be lucky to get 50K if I tried to sell it now. The thing is I have a boat that can get me pretty much anywhere I want to go and it is set up for us. Some things you will end up doing twice because it is a learning process. I have done things three times before on my boat. First time is wrong, get it right the second time and the third time is because I thought I could improve upon try number two.

You will learn so much on this board. If you are not sure about something, just ask.

Good luck.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Aug 24th, '14, 01:22

Small world.

I was a 25 years old when I bought and redid my 25 bertram. I had the same plan and ideas as you. It certainly is possible and I had a lot of pride in my boat. It's was not perfect by any means but it was mine and I did it all on my own. That made the boat so valuable and we had a blast on it. The 25bertram website was huge and I got so much enjoyment out of it. If you search on thehulltruth.com you can find all of my pictures on outboard powered 25 Bertram's.

This website allows you to search all of the USA craigslist in one search. This is where you will find your boat. As you have seen so many people including myself are so happy to help.

www.adhuntr.com

Here are a few near you.

http://savannah.craigslist.org/boa/4614402125.html

http://jacksonville.tr.craigslist.org/b ... 21768.html

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 25th, '14, 08:20

Cory, thanks for posting. You have helped to remind all of us why we did this whacky think called buy a boat and dig in.

Hats off to you, and good luck!!!!!!! We are here to share in that experience if you want us too and to offer help if you ask. That being said, enjoy every second of your time looking for, thinking about and then working on the boat. My first ride home, I was so full of wonder, amazement and excitement, I cannot even begin to describe it. I had no idea what this boat would lead me too, the friends I would make, the adventures I would have, and the learning I would do. Plus I am sure I invented new swear words!

Go for it and have a ball!!!!! And wear a respirator! ;)

Dug

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Aug 25th, '14, 10:08

yes! Always wear the respirator! Even for selfies!

Corey Mason · Post by **Corey Mason** » Aug 25th, '14, 12:13

Thanks for all the input guys!

And capt bone....I was the one conversing with you on thehulltruth in regards to your boat. Good to see you again!

More than likely I will not be able to find a boat that works from day one..as I plan on going to outboard, and those are rare. But like I said, I really am comfortable and patient with it. I think im more excited about having the project and working towards the goal than actually using the boat ha. Besides red tide is expected to hit here in 2 weeks....so ive got time.

So I guess step one is finding the hull. If any of you see a '65-69 mark II with the flybridge laying around somewhere please let me know. I check adhuntr everyday though, so ill probably see it first!

Then I guess ill start making post on this and that as I go. Ill be sure to keep a visual log of all the progress as I go.

And thank you all for the very big welcome. It was greatly appreciated and makes going forwards a little easier knowing I have a crutch to help if I need one!

buzzk · Post by **buzzk** » Aug 25th, '14, 13:20

The was a guy on the hull truth that had a 25 flybridge that had been converted into an outboard for sale. I don't know if he sold it but you could go over to that site and do a search.

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Aug 25th, '14, 21:42

https://delaware.craigslist.org/boa/4635782650.html

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Aug 26th, '14, 10:52

Curved windows and port side steering, must be a really early one!

scot · Post by **scot** » Aug 26th, '14, 14:49

That is an oldie! check out those vents for the V-berth. I don't think they would save you on a hot rainy night, but I suppose they would slow down the mildew?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 26th, '14, 17:49

I looked for 2 years to find those bear claw vents for my B31. They're pretty sought after. Boat is overpriced by about $3500.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Aug 26th, '14, 18:03

That boat has been around for years. If you wait a few weeks you will find a nice hull cheaper as they are always coming up. I keep looking at the 31 bertram fire hull in MA for 2k and daydream of turning it into a moppie with a single OB.