V-drive went south

[Joseph Fikentscher]

The port d V-Drive took a dive today. Going through the Pt. Pleasant Canal the port engine stalled. Started up in neutral, but stalled immediately upon putting it in gear. Limped back to the slip on one engine.

Let it sit for a couple of hours then started up again and it shifted ok but I can gear grinding inside.

Looks like I'll need a replacement. Anyone have one lying around?

[Carl]

Sorry to hear, I do not have one around. But we have sent to and referred to Walters with good results.

http://www.waltergear.com

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Thanks Carl, I'll be calling them today.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Spoke with Walters Drives. Way too much$$ $2600 for the vdrive and still have to buy a Velvet drive trans. I found a PV33R Trans on line for $500 with the vdrive and Bell Housing that came off a Chrysler 318. I think I'll buy that and make a swap. I assume that there are 3 basic parts here. The bell housing, the trans, and the vdrive. I also assume that I take each part out separately so that there is enough room to get it all in without removing the engine?

Please, if anyone has done this before, and has any words of wisdom....

Thanks,

Joe

[CaptPatrick]

Joe,

I've seen it done once on a B25 and removing the engine was a necessity...

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Thanks Capt. I was afraid of that.

[Navatech]

I assume that there are 3 basic parts here. The bell housing, the trans, and the vdrive. I also assume that I take each part out separately so that there is enough room to get it all in without removing the engine?

Are you sure about that?!... I'll readily admit that I have no specific knowledge regarding the B31 but I have an extensive marine mechanical background... I'd have thought that the gear and redirection unit (vdrive) would be a single unit... The fact that the bell housing would be a separate unit is not a given... In fact, it's mostly a separate unit because it simplifies things from the manufacturer's POV... Why have multiple products (everything combined) for multiple applications when you can have a single product that is adaptable to multiple applications by the simple means of a suitable bell housing?!...

Last but not least, and again, I have no specific knowledge of the B31, but wouldn't it be possible to just move the engine somewhat backward (as opposed to completely removing the engine)?!... That way you'd have to disconnect a lot less things that later you need to reconnect...

P.S. IF you do have to get the engine and gear out, use the opportunity to do a good cleaning of the whole (now easily accessible) area and follow with a detailed inspection of the stringers, the mounts and everything else that might be a problem down the road... This inspection could save you a lot of effort, grief and expense down the road... Taking out an engine is a major job... Might as well get everything that's even remotely needed done at this opportunity...

Also, if you have the old school gland type shaft tubes now might be a good time to consider retrofitting a modern dripless system... Even if it's only one... After all, you're already doing 99% of the related work... The other one can be done when the occasion arrises...

[Tony Meola]

Nav

Joe has a 25 with outdrives. So it is a different set up.

[Navatech]

Joe has a 25 with outdrives. So it is a different set up.

I guess it is... But, some of what I posted is totally unaffected... He may not have shaft tubes but he should still clean and inspect the area that will become accessible if the engine is removed...

[Navatech]

Joe has a 25 with outdrives.

Outdrives AND v-drives?!... Isn't that the worst of both worlds?!... Wasn't it possible to turn the engines around and hook them up directly to the outdrives?!...

[Rocket]

Joe, I assume that if you have 318's and V-drives that you have the center mounted engines. My experience is that the easy way is the hard way! If you remove the engine, leave the tranny and V-Drive hooked up and you can remove the whole assembly in one pick and it actually makes it easier because the V-drives and trannies are actually under the deck and quite hard to reach without the engine attached. Agree with Nav that you have a chance to thoroughly inspect motor mounts, through hulls, shaft seals, bonding system while you arte there. Oh yeah, good time to change the inboard spark plugs and wires weather they need them or not!.

[kellysmall]

I had to remove my engines when I replaced my old Paragons with Walter units. I bought the v-drive/transmission packages from Transmission Marine in Fort Lauderdale, and they were very good to work with. Never had a problem with these packages. Exact replacements for the old units.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Spent yesterday removing and loosening items to be ready for the takeout. Had the boat pulled this morning and the engine/Trans assembly out by 11:00. Picked up new bolts for the engine mounts and spark plugs for the engines. Also will scrape and paint as needed. Hoses are all recent replacements.

I already have the dripless seals and they seem to be working ok.

On my way in a few minutes to pick up the replacement trans assembly. Hope to be back in the water tomorrow night.

Thanks for all the suggestions. ill post more with a few pictures tomorrow or Friday.

Regards,

Joe

[Rocket]

Joseph, not to add to your "to do" list, but buy a couple of exhaust manifold gaskets, pull and inspect the inboard manifolds. This is definitely the easiest time to address the manifolds and if they go, the consequences are pretty severe.

[MarkS]

Not familiar with v- drive set up but I shit out a starboard coupler between the outdrive and the flywheel this year and the symptoms were similar. Is there such a coupler on v-drives?
$.02

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Got the motor back in the boat yesterday afternoon. Took a while to line up the engine mounts but the bolts finally dropped in. Today will be putting everything back on, electrical, plumbing etc. Hop to be in the water this afternoon.

Rocket,

The exhaust manifolds are recent. just a couple of years. they look ok.

Mark,

There is a coupling from the Vdrive to the prop shaft. Just like in a straight inboard.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

All is not well. New trans in, engine in and running. No response at all from the Trans. No forward or reverse. Could it be as easy as air in the hydraulic lines? Seems not to be pumping.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Figured I would post an update. Still not fixed.

I have had the engine in and out three times already and the problem persists. I bought a used trans, installed it and no go. Took it to the trans shop had the pump re-indexed, and a new gasket installed that opened up the oil ports for left hand rotation. It was run for a few hours on their bench. Installed it and it shifted in forward and reverse but in forward there was the grinding noise that I heard with the previous trans. Maybe not a trans problem?

As far as I can see, the trans bolts to the bell housing, and the spline marries up with the flex plate. So I bought a new flex plate and removed the engine again and have it now all apart. But the old flex plate doesn't look bad and the Trans shop says they have seen a lot worse. The springs are all intact and there are no cracks.

I am almost afraid to put everything back together and install the engine again and have the same problem.

Is there something I am missing?

I will be calling the Trans shop in the morning to find a mechanic to come out and give me some direction. (Probably should have done that first but I get adventurous).

Does anyone know a competent and reasonable diagnosis mechanic?

I am admitting defeat regarding my own abilities.

[Tony Meola]

Joe

I can check for you, to see, but there used to be a guy in Forked River. His last name was brown. I will send my friend an email tonight to check but will not get an answer until tomorrow late in the day.

[Carl]

It may sound stupid...but are you sure the engine is running correctly? Has it had a good tune up recently?

A miss or rough running motor at low rpm can produce alot of gear slap in some setups...especially at low rpm. Sound like the motor and drive are going to grenade, may cause it to stall. But starts right up again.

I had that happen a couple years ago. My mechanic told me to give a good tuneup when he heard...I could not detect a miss, thought motor was running fine and assumed it was the flex plate....pulled tranny, plate was like new, reassembled and same thing. Tuned up the motor and all was good.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Carl,

That's what the Trans guy said. I switched the Carbs, put new plugs in, and still the grinding persists.

[CamB25]

Stumper...I'll throw this out as bait: Check the harmonic balancer on that engine (I assume it has one). if the balancer has spun on the elastomer it will put the engine out of balance. The crankshaft will start hammering fore and aft in the block and may sound like grinding in the trans when under load. I had similar symptoms in an old Ford truck years ago. The rotating assembly hits a certain frequency and the noise gets very pronounced. I blamed the trans until eventual I pulled the engine and saw that the crank thrust bearing was shot.....

Just fishin'..good luck!

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Trans guy again said today to get the motors tuned up. I need some names of local mechanics that are decent. Tired of pissing in the wind. Getting expensive also.

[Carl]

Joseph- I have pissed into the wind more then once. It sucks...

If you can find a good mechanic...I'll agree it may pay to bite the bullet and have it done.


I noticed you did not mention wires in your tuneup. For me, 100-150 hours and my wires are toast. Stock, automotive or the high end, marine build them yourself all give me about 100-150 hours of running before they start breaking down. Meaning if I open the hatch at night i'll see a fireworks display from wires to block... Lots of blue arcing....whatever...

If your going to do a tuneup...do a full tuneup, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, check timing, check and lube advance and change all filters plus whatever..just do it all. Check harmonic balancer as Camb25 said...at worst you have all new parts and can rule all those items out...

[Tony Meola]

pat brown: 609 693-3835

Joe

Give Pat Brown a call. Before my friend bought his Fortier, which is diesel powered, Pat did a lot of work on his 24 Topaz. In fact he repowered it for him. Pat is in Forked River. My friend swore by him. Said he was honest. He used to come to my friends house to work on the boat (except when he repowered it.

Tony

[Joseph Fikentscher]

I ordered all the parts for a tune-up. Caps, Rotors, Reluctors, Wires. Plugs already done last week.

Put the trans back on today, tune-up Tuesday, engine back in on Wednesday, launch on Thursday.

Got my fingers crossed.

[Tony Meola]

Joe

Good luck. Before the repower, the velvet drives on our 31 used to rattle at idle when the engines were cold, but not in gear. Grinding in gear has to be something else. Make sure all the splines are lined up when you put it all toghter.

[Carl]

Joe

Good luck. Before the repower, the velvet drives on our 31 used to rattle at idle when the engines were cold, but not in gear. Grinding in gear has to be something else. Make sure all the splines are lined up when you put it all toghter.

In gear at low idle speeds and a rough engine gears can rattle and if caught right will grow upon itself and can seem violent...metal to metal violent. Maybe the springs in clutch plate allows it to bounce back a hair with little load at low rpm...not sure...just know I thought my tranny or motor was toast when I heard it.
What is funny I can usually hear and feel a miss and never had a problem when I could...what caused me grief was when I could barely detect the engine running rough..actually I thought it sounded pretty good...but soon as I slipped into gear it was almost an immediate sound of destruction. Mechanic came over and confirmed his guess...motor running rough...Give a full tune up Carl, it don't fix it...give me a call. He was right...very happy he was.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Finished the wires, rechecked the plugs, new rotors and cap, waiting on the reluctors.

Engine going back in the boat tomorrow.

Hopefully launch on Thursday.

[Carl]

I have my fingers crossed for you!



Before sticking setup back in the boat and launching to verify...have you considered running setup outside the boat?

[Joseph Fikentscher]

Well I sure didn't believe it at first, but after the tune up and adjusting the carbs, the noises and shaking have gone away. At least at the dock.

I will be taking her out for a spin after work today. Clients come first.

Here's hoping.....