Cutlass bearings question

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 11th, '14, 00:50

My cutlass bearings are impossible to remove.
Does anyone out there know the trick so I don't have to pull out the axles?
Thanks.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Jun 11th, '14, 06:38

Yannis,
I tried a homemade puller and failed. It was suggested to me that I just unbolt the struts. Of course the props have to come off but then you just slide the struts off the end of the shaft. Then a hack saw can be used to remove the bearing. There should be a couple posts here in the past year or so with pics I think.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 11th, '14, 07:29

Thanks Kevin.
The point is that if you unbolt the struts then you have to go through the alignment and resealing process. Resealing of the bolt canals that is. I'm ready to @@@ than have to do that !!
My mechanic came with his whatever it's called, and it broke on him !! What if I rented a nice studio by the beach and forgot about the boat this summer ?

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 11th, '14, 08:22

Yannis wrote:What if I rented a nice studio by the beach and forgot about the boat this summer ?

You'll regret it and, it would cost more then pulling the shafts... Having said that, renting a studio by the beach would also cost more then getting something like this: http://www.starlineind.com/products/mar ... earing.htm ... You don't have to get a fancy hydraulic one... You can build your own based on two 1/2" (13mm) thread rods... Just make sure to turn the nuts equally...

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 11th, '14, 08:41

Some pictures to give you an idea how to "roll your own"...

More links and images here: https://www.google.com/search?q=cutlass ... 86&bih=638

Referring to the last picture, personally I would use a U shaped profile on the inboard side... It would still have a cutaway to be put over the shaft but it would have a bolted flat piece to close the gap so that this end won't be able to "jump off" the shaft... Also, if it were me, I'd use hose clips to hold the two halves of the "pusher pipe" and remove them once they get close to the strut... Again, to avoid things "jumping off"...

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jun 11th, '14, 10:40

So I'm going to assume the set screws were removed and they have just seized themselves to the strut.

No biggies to drop the struts, keeping in mind that there are shims and you shouldn't move them.

If the struts are in place with 5200 its even easier.

Remove the bolts and support the end of the prop less shaft with a block of wood. Heat the strut to around 150f, the 5200 should debone around this temp. Wiggle the strut gently to not disturb the shims and it will be able to rotate to the 3 or 6 o'clock position and slid off the shaft. Keep the shaft supported and cut the old bearing out and install the new one. As long as you don't destroy the shims alignment wii not have changed. Rebed and reinstall the strut.

That's how we did Chimera and have seen at least a hald dozen others done that way.

Good Luck

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 11th, '14, 10:43

Thanks Nav, very user friendly pics and explanations.
And yes, you're right, I was kidding myself about that studio by the beach; who doesn't prefer a stubborn cutless bearing to a peaceful, hassle free vacation where they change your towels and sheets or cook or clean up your mess. I hope you too have this button installed by your throttles which when pushed, it delivers all of the above !!!

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 11th, '14, 10:51

JP thanks.

What's funny though is that my struts do not have those two bolts that normally keep the cutless bearing in place. Have you seen this before? And is it just because of the lack of those screws that the bearing might be kept in place by other means so that they are harder to remove?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 11th, '14, 11:16

Yannis wrote:JP thanks.

What's funny though is that my struts do not have those two bolts that normally keep the cutless bearing in place. Have you seen this before? And is it just because of the lack of those screws that the bearing might be kept in place by other means so that they are harder to remove?

Bet dollars to donuts that the set screws are there, just covered up with bottom paint... They'll be on the sides of the strut tube, half way between each end of the tube. They'll be allen head screws that need a hex wrench.

Also see: Replacing A Cutlass Bearing

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 11th, '14, 11:28

Yannis wrote:Thanks Nav, very user friendly pics and explanations.
And yes, you're right, I was kidding myself about that studio by the beach; who doesn't prefer a stubborn cutless bearing to a peaceful, hassle free vacation where they change your towels and sheets or cook or clean up your mess. I hope you too have this button installed by your throttles which when pushed, it delivers all of the above !!!

Actually, working on my Berty is therapy for me... Saves me going to the shrink which is also a considerable money saver...

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 11th, '14, 11:32

Yannis wrote:JP thanks.

What's funny though is that my struts do not have those two bolts that normally keep the cutless bearing in place. Have you seen this before? And is it just because of the lack of those screws that the bearing might be kept in place by other means so that they are harder to remove?

Like Capt. Patrick I very seriously doubt your struts don't have those bolts... After all, without these bolts what's to prevent the cutless bearings from "riding" out of the strut and up the shaft?!... Not removing them may explain why your cutless bearings seem immovable... Somebody may have though that filling their heads with some sort of fairing compound was a good idea... I'd start removing the paint where they should be and see if there's something there which looks like it might be covering the heads...

Also, as a further incentive to removing the shafts, if you do chose to go that way you can replace the old time gland type stuffing box with modern dripless shaft seals...

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Jun 12th, '14, 08:23

When I removed my cutlass bearings, I found that the indented holes for the hex bolts were filled with wax and faired and painted. If I had not looked hard for them, I would not have seen them at all.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 12th, '14, 10:41

Well, there were NO screws or holes or anything...
I polished the struts with the copper Black&Decker brush and except for a shiny result nothing else was found !!

So we started cutting the old cutlass bearing....

Put the new one in and, this time, we made new holes...

Here is the final result...

And while I'm at it, here's the new back pillow for my new couch...

with a "patent pending" for hiding the electric board !.

Cheers.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Jun 14th, '14, 19:53

FYI, I have replaced the strut bearings twice in 10 years on my Rybo, they r floated in with epoxy that we injected in with a per filled empty caulking cartridge, we drill around the outside of the bearing with 3/16" drill ,18" long, lots of holes and drills, ,heat up the strut with a torch and drive the old bearing out with a a splits learning type fixture and a homemade puller,leaving the 2 1/2" shafts in place supported with a vee block /jack stand during the proceedure, quite common on the commercial fishing boats in the southeast, we drill thru the struts previous set screw holes and detent the bearing hopefully to keep it in place, the first bearings were set in in a casting resin that was hard and difficult to drill and no set screws

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jun 14th, '14, 20:18

That is definitely not a Buck Algonquin strut.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 15th, '14, 00:36

Thank you Marlin.

JP, I'm not aware what a Buck Algonquin strut is; is it too bad that mine isn't one of them?

Here's the story: When I bought my boat last summer, I noticed that the port shaft was a bit longer than the stb one; this was visible by the shorter clearance of the port prop to the rudder. Discussions upon discussions led nowhere and we assumed that either the two rudders were positioned slightly differently on the hull (or their vertical inclinations were slightly different), or, the two Yanmars were placed not exactly parallel to each other.
A week ago, as I was pressure cleaning under the deck in the area above the port strut, and the inner hull paint flaked away, it appeared to me that there was a hair thick crevice between the hull and the inner strut support ( that 15 X 90 cm grp'd plank that reinforces the hull). My mechanic told me that the metal of the two shafts is different as they behave differently to a magnet, so the port one was changed at some point. Then, we saw that the two struts are different ! And then, we assumed that someone hit something that necessitated a change of strut and shaft and was the reason why the inner strut reinforcement plank was shaken upwards.
I sent the two shafts for inspection, we put a few layers of mat glass in the area of the crevice to seal and reinforce the area, changed the cutlass bearings and I'm expecting to reinstall everything back-in this coming week. Am I missing something ??

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 15th, '14, 09:24

Yannis wrote:Am I missing something ??

Sounds to me as if, at some time during the past, your boat was grounded... Severely enough to necessitate the replacement of shaft, strut (and quite likely prop & rudder)... Another possibility is that the boat wasn't bonded properly and the strut was "eaten up"... However, one thing is certain, the boat didn't leave the factory with mismatched struts...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 15th, '14, 10:37

Nav,

The question is if the two mismatched struts present a potential issue.
Last year, my first year, we cruised for 15 days without any apparent problems, no vibrations or anything else.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 15th, '14, 13:39

Yannis wrote:The question is if the two mismatched struts present a potential issue.

Absolutely none that I can see...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 15th, '14, 14:35

Soothing. After 9 or so months, where almost everything (xept motors) was demolished and redone, the summer is close but still far. When I'm about to finish one job two new jobs pop-up like that monster we had in mythology...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 16th, '14, 09:19

Does anybody know if this rudder is stock B28 ? Thanks.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 16th, '14, 09:52

Buck Algonquin is a manufacturer of underwater hardware and running gear. They Cast Bronze Struts...

What you have appears to be a custom SS Strut...long as it lines up it should be just as good.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 16th, '14, 10:49

Thank you Carl.
Yea I think they line up.
Do you know who could tell me about the rudders above?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 16th, '14, 12:03

Yannis,

Look at the rudder page about a third of the way down. Your rudders are what I call the "inverted shark fin" which was fitted to a few of the B31s, but discontinued after they were proven ineffective.

In the stock configuration, the "SF" would have been way too large for the B28 and it's obvious the someone has shortened the depth by a good 5" - 6". It's still more rudder than you need for the B28, in terms of the trailing edge. If you experience a tendency to over steer the boat, reducing the trailing edge might solve the problem. Draw a straight line from the upper and lower trailing edge corners and remove the excess.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 16th, '14, 12:58

Thank you Captain.

I have not experienced any problems with this rudder last summer. I don't know what you mean exactly by oversteeering, however I will be vigilant over this issue this coming summer and if need be I will trim as you suggest.
The reason I put this rudder origin question up, was to verify Nav's hypothesis that when a previous owner (how long back in the 42 year boat life, I don't know) changed the shaft and strut, he must have also changed the rudder or rudders.
And from what you're saying Captain, although this rudder is a Bertram one, it is not a B28 stock one. So, unless the rudders were changed for some other unknown reason, they might have been changed due to the said damage.
Thank you for your contributions to decipher yet another mystery.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 16th, '14, 13:15

Yannis,

Over steering is when you apply rudder to correct the boat's course and the correction is greater than anticipated requiring you to now apply the rudder in the opposite direction to compensate. An overly large rudder can cause this constant back and forth correction resulting in a zigzag track rather than a straight line. If, when running a straight course, you are constantly having to adjust the rudder angle, you're over steering.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jun 17th, '14, 18:13

I would imagine they were changed as part of a repower?

Like was stated if they work it's all good.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 18th, '14, 00:25

JP,

The repower took place in 2007. There is no way for me to know if they were changed then or before.
Tomorrow we'll put them back up, finalize the exhaust system, pour back the diesel in the clean tank, put the shafts in place, ... its gonna be a long day.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Jun 18th, '14, 01:43

Yannis,
Back a few years ago 2004-2005 all the hurricane damaged boats were cut up and a lot of different shafts, struts, props, rudders, etc showed up in second hand marine parts stores. The original Buck Algonquin style struts that Bertram used had a tapered front and back edges and a thinner walled barrel at the cutlass bearing. Looking at your pictures. I think you might have an old Chris Craft strut.

I've done a surveys on 31's with 2 different length struts, barrel sizes and one strut was a 1" forward of the other side. Like Navtech said the boat might have been grounded hard enough to make the strut unusable and crack the backing plate on the inside of the hull. One of the biggest weak points is the small size of the strut backing plates, they should be at least twice the size that the originals were. Hell I have even seen two different sized shafts, struts and rudders on some of the bastardized 31's out there. One boat had a 1-3/8" shaft with a 10" long strut ( old low profile strut used in the early 60's on one side and a 1-1/2" shaft with a 13" long strut on the other( done in the late 90's).

A 1/4" doesn't seem like much but it can throw a lot of things out of whack. I watched a guy try to figure out why his 1-3/8" prop bore wouldn't work on his supposedly 1-3/8" shaft, I measured it and it was a 1-1/4" shaft. The old adage measure twice but cut only once comes into play here. Just think your floating vacation cottage will be there even after the tide rises due to polar ice melting.
While the boat is still on the hard check your rudders for side to side play and up and down slop. Also check you intake scoops or screens for marine growth that can obstruct the flow of cooling water to the engines and sea water Air conditioner intakes or wash down pumps. And most important make sure all your sea cock handles work freely, without having to put a persuader bar on the handles.
Pete Fallon

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 18th, '14, 06:35

Pete, a little off topic but I'm posting it here because you mentioned seacocks... What's your opinion on those?!... Marine ball valves or "proper" seacocks (i.e. the conical) ones?!...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 18th, '14, 07:07

Pete,

Thanks for your time to explain all that.

Now that you mentioned strut and shaft dimensions and diameters, my starboard shaft is shorter by a bit (perhaps 1-2cm), BUT it is the one that sticks out more! This is because the two shaft tapering angles are not the same, and the port shaft does not sit as well as the stb does on the engine side ! The shaft diameters though seem identical. I will have more tomorrow after the install.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Jun 18th, '14, 10:58

Yannis wrote:my starboard shaft is shorter by a bit (perhaps 1-2cm)

That should NOT be the case but it's not going to be a problem assuming everything else (engine and gear supports) are good...

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Jun 18th, '14, 11:23

Unrelated, but sort of to Pete's points about mismatched parts -- remember the small skiff with, if I remember correctly an Evinrude 40 on one side and a Merc 25 on the other? sometimes you just have to work with what you have.

Tom

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 18th, '14, 11:42

Nav,

You can't tell by the pics cos you don't see he whole shaft, but the one marked "2" is the stb one and it is a bit longer. Yet, if you can see by the stain mark ,this shaft penetrates more into its forward coupler (or however its called), so, the std prop is forward of the port one by this same difference. You can also see that the shafts are not the same by the length of the groove.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 18th, '14, 11:45

TailhookTom wrote:Unrelated, but sort of to Pete's points about mismatched parts -- remember the small skiff with, if I remember correctly an Evinrude 40 on one side and a Merc 25 on the other?

Tom, what's even worse, what about the "kiosk type" B31 that Nav put up a while ago with the two mismatched Merc outboards?

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Jun 18th, '14, 12:46

E,
The old style cone valves were really the best for the heaviest castings, handles and all other parts, but ABYC didn't like them because they required an extra step to close the actual sea cock off. You had to carry the proper sized wrench for the lock nut on the back side of the cone valve. You couldn't just shut the valve off with one motion. I had them in my 1961 31 Bertram Express until last year when I replaced all the thru hulls with the accepted ball valve style sea cock fittings. The problem I find is that a lot of cheap bastards out there would go to Home Depot or Lowe's and by regular household style ball valves. those had cheap stamped steel handles that would rust away very quickly when exposed to sea water. Plus they are usually made of low quality brass material not marine grade bronze. I still think that the old cone valves when properly maintained are far better than the ball valve style that has become the accepted way of doing sea cock installations. A lot of guys don't know what we are talking about most have never even seen a cone valve, but just for the amount of heavy duty material used in making a cone valve they were in my opinion far better. Plus it made you check them more often to make sure they were working correctly.
Yannis,
It looks like your getting some wear on the shafts near the cuttless bearings, I'm seeing groves in the stainless steel material also if you look at the #1 shaft the one on the left, it appears that the keyway is cut deeper or am I just seeing an optical illusion. Are you getting any wear groves at the packing gland nut up near the shaft coupler end, if so I would have both of those shafts checked (MagnaFluxed) or x-rayed by a good prop shop before they go back into the boat. You can check them for hairline cracks, with a good magnifying glass if you've got one.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 20th, '14, 11:37

Pete,

The shafts were nicely polished and I was told there were no problems. One can still notice some scratch lines here and there, but nothing alarming. They are both 1-1/4" in diameter. The mystery on why the shafts are uneven at the rear end is mainly due to the fact that the port engine is placed a bit more aft than the stb one. I wonder how many beers those guys had during the installation... My mechanic told me that this shouldn't worry me. If you too can reassure me that this is indeed so, I would feel more comfortable. Thanx.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Jun 20th, '14, 12:15

Yannis,
As long as the scratches are not deep and if you don't see any hairline cracks with a good magnifying glass, you should be good to go. My concern is if there was enough force to crack the strut backing plate epoxy on the inside of the boat, I would really rather have a prop shop take a good look at the side that had the problem. Especially since they are only 1-1/4" shafts, if the difference between the two shaft lengths is only an inch I wouldn't be overly concerned. Preferably everything should be the same size and length, keyways cut the same, threaded tapered ends the same and the prop riding on the shaft at the same length. If you don't have a prop shop nearby to check for cracks, get a good magnifying glass, check the shafts for straightness by rolling them on a flat concrete surface, if they have any bends you will see it right away.
Years ago on my boat, I wrapped up a mooring buoy with chain that was just below the surface at the edge of a big mooring field. It made a very loud noise while wrapping itself around my port shaft. That same day I began noticing a vibration on that side. I hauled the boat and inspected the shaft which was 1-1/4" on my 31' they were the original factory stainless steel shafts from 1961. All I could see were the chain marks on the exterior of the shaft, however the cutlass bearing rubber insert was bulging at the aft end of the strut. I dropped the shaft and had it magna fluxed at a nearby prop shop, it was cracked and also slightly bent. I was lucky enough to be the broker at a newly acquired boat yard that had a bunch of derelict boats that had been cut up, but we kept the shafts and running gear from the old boats. One set of shafts had come out of an old Wheeler sport fisherman, I brought them to the prop shop had them checked out and shortened, they turned out to be Monel shafts in perfect condition, they have been in my boat ever since. So if anything looks out of the ordinary on your boat have it checked out by a good prop shop.
Hope you don't have anymore issues with your underwater gear.
Pete Fallon

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 20th, '14, 12:39

Pete thank you.

The difference is less than 1 inch, so I'm glad your opinion is the same with that of my mechanic's. One less thing to worry about.

If you recall, I mentioned earlier that the trigger point of all this shaft/cutlass bearing issue was when I saw this hairline crack on the outboard side of the port backing plate, where the glassed wooden support meets the hull. A hairline crack of 30 cm. This crack was probably there for a long time, I even used the boat for 300 nm last summer without any incident and it was thanks to the pressure pistol that it became evident last week. We applied a few layers of mat glassed epoxy to seal and strengthen, and we placed the metal strut backing plate on top as was before, only this time the allen through bolts became a bit shorter so the 4 double nuts are even with the bolts. I don't know if there is more to do; the mechanic is telling me that it is OK. I think that you'll read in the papers if something went wrong and a B28 in Greece exploded to smithereens !