bertram31.com

Hi guys,

Does anyone have experience with upgrading rudders on a 25? The rudders on mine are relatively small, and I am not very impressed with the steering response at lower speeds. I have gotten into the habit of steering with the engines, but it would be nice with a bit more effect from the rudders.

Lars,
I personally don’t have experience with your dilemma, but I did see a set of Bertram rudders on EBay that may work....just a thought. Definitely check the size on the listing.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Bronze-Boat-Rudd ... Sw8FRZtDj3

Thanks very much for the link Brian. They are definitely much larger than mine, but I have no idea if they would fit - or perform. And I haven't seen mine off the boat, so I don't know what flanges I need.

I would definitely love to hear from anyone with experience upgrading B25 rudders!

Bertram was known for under sizing the rudders. At that price he is going to be holding on to those for a long time.

There is a formula for determining rudder size. I remember Capt. Pat discussing it one time. I would think new the ones we usedon both the 28 and 31 would be too big but I could be wrong.

I am going to measure mine this upcoming weekend for another member. If you want the measurements I will give them too you next week, then I would say that your would fall maybe midway between the size of mine and the ones you have on their now, but I would talk with a prop shop. Maybe they could help you out.

http://bertram31.com/parts/rudders/index.html

Check out this link it may give you some idea as to what you have. Bruce can jump in if he wants but I do not believe they are available through the site anymore. They were being made by Bobby Soles down in Florida.

The 25 has horrible steering with the standard rudders, and the v-drives. Using the engines helps a lot. I'm sure the outdrive version is better for steering.

Thanks Tony!

Joe: Have you done anything to address the steering, or did you just learn to live with it?

I’m no help here but the sterndrive stears like a dream.

Lars,

I just live with it. Budget has not allowed me to replace the rudders yet.

Right. I have the engines and shafts out for some work and tidying up now, so was considering a rudder upgrade. However, I think I will leave it alone for fear of doing something that ends up being worse. As you say, it does respond well to engine steering.

Joseph Fikentscher wrote:Lars,

I just live with it. Budget has not allowed me to replace the rudders yet.

As this site is not getting a % of those sales anymore...

I cannot see a reason original rudders cannot have a couple strips welded on to increase surface area.
SS rudders are a pretty straight forward weld job, use 316L SS strips and filler.
Bronze rudders...a prop shop that brazes props should be able to tackle a bronze rudder, add strips and/or filler rod.

Pretend the 25's don't have rudders below 10 Knots, come off the plane with them straight and use gear and throttle for the rest. My 25 with v drives was the best handling boat I have ever owned, I never steered with the wheel. If you have an engine out, that's another story. You have to learn that 3 rights make a left and neutral is a gear!

So right Rocket! Came through the Point Pleasant canal on one engine, screaming current, real nail biter. But, made it through safely. Only had to do one 360 degree turn.

Carl, I kike the idea of brazing strips on to the existing rudders. I guess a little wider and deeper would help. Not sure how deep. They look like they only cover about half of the props.

Does anybody know which is more important, the deeper or the wider factor?
I know, you'll say both, but if one were more important than the other.

Joe

In postings Capt. Pat only increased the size of the 31 rudders by 25% so you don't need a lot. I would say you need to add some depth but I would think the width of the blade has more effect. You need some additional depth to stay in the prop wash. I have to look at mine this weekend. I bet the bottom comes to the bottom of the prop blade.

I will make a note out of curiosity, plus I promised one member I would measure mine.

I would not just add to one edge of rudder. However, I do think most material should be added to the trailing edge.

A little on the front edge will help counter the extra effort needed to turn a larger rudder.

Adding to bottom will help...but adding so far from the support of the rudder port and shaft does adds lots more stress on system when running.

Carl wrote:I would not just add to one edge of rudder. However, I do think most material should be added to the trailing edge.

A little on the front edge will help counter the extra effort needed to turn a larger rudder.

Adding to bottom will help...but adding so far from the support of the rudder port and shaft does adds lots more stress on system when running.

Carl

I was thinking about this after last nights discussion and I remembered that with the original rudders I could pull the shafts without dropping the rudders. While I have not as yet tried, I remember CApt. Pat telling me the new rudders are in the way of the shaft and have to be dropped or and if I remember this correctly the new rudders should be installed slightly offset to allow for shaft removal.

I did not offset mine, I made sure they were straight up and down.

So the new ones have extra depth to them.

http://bertram31.com/proj/tips/bronze_shaft_alleys.htm

Carl

I take that back the struts need to adjusted. I found this link to Capt. Pat's instructions.

Hi Guys, awhile back what I did to my 31 rudders were to have some bronze plate welded to the originals. Capt Pat gave me the dimentions to his rudders. The first time at dry dock I had a few inches welded on to the rear of the rudder. Worked so so. So at the next dry dock I had a few inches added to the depth of the rudder. After that it made a huge difference.

Tony, that is why I asked for the dimentions of your rudders. I would like to do it again but to another boat that I have.


Aloha Ken

Thanks for your inputs guys - that turned into an interesting discussion!
I'll keep steering with the throttles for now, but would be interested to hear more experiences with welding on additional material to the rudders. Keep them coming!..

I am measuring the rudders this weekend if all goes as planned. Our weather is changing tonight. We are getting record liws and wind chills. Just great. The other day short sleeves now winter gear and crank up the snow blowers.

These are the original tooth pick rudders. Work well at speed, rubbish below 5 knots.
But as you have pointed out, it steers fine on engines - as long as you have both..

Lars,

This is a pic from my own rudders. This is how I bought the boat. Probably, someone before me has modified them so that they are wider, not deeper. It could be that they changed them when they put the Yanmars in. Now that I see them I suspect they added width on both edges, as Carl suggested.

https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/155615IMG0495.jpg

This is a pic of another 28 right next to mine, with gassers. These rudders look as if they are the originals.

https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/698854IMG0494.jpg

I never had any problem whatsoever in turning the boat, even at idle speed.That's why I asked what is more important, the width or the depth. In my case, the addition of width gives a good result, but I have NO idea if the guy (lady actually) next to me, with the stock rudders, experiences any problems in steering either. Whatever the case, these stock rudders look a lot like yours.

Yannis

Yours are not standard Bertram rudders. The issue with the stock rudders is if you loose an engine. With one engine the boat just has a hard time turning on one engine. The bigger rudders allow her to turn on one engine.

Tony,

I know. Though, the guys here with the 25's claim that they cannot turn even on two engines, when going slow, not just one!
But yes, I will have to run on one to see if even these modified rudders of mine can turn at low speeds too.
I just have to remember running this test next summer.

We can turn at slow speeds, but not fast. if you have a hard turn you need to use the engines.