Bio Fuel

[Brewster Minton]

Is this stuff ok to run my Yanmars on without scewing them up? I have been told its ok except in late fall and early spring when it is cold out. It is cheaper.

[Rawleigh]

Brewster: Make sure it comes from reputable processor who complies with all of the fuel quality standards. i've been running B20 to B100 in my '06 Ford 6.0 diesel since I bought it new in October of 06. Biodiesel has has a higher cloud point than regular diesel, but I haven't had any problems with it yet in Virginia. 17 degrees was my coldest startup. Soy oil base makes the best bio. Chicken scraps are OK, but have a higher cloud point than soy. It is hydroscopic, but at the rate you burn fuel that should not be a problem. When you winterize it, put in straight diesel. Bio is a great fuel system cleaner, so have some fuel filters on hand for the first couple of tanks. After that, no problem. i have not yet had any problems with filters plugging in any of my older equipment yet. Bio can soften older rubber gaskets and hoses in pre-80's equipment.

Here is the best source of reliable info:

http://www.biodiesel.org/

[Capt. DQ]

Brew,

We have use Bio-Diesel in our company trucks for almost 2 yrs now and have switched back to reg. deisel fuel and I would NOT use it in your marine diesel engines no matter what brand of deisels you have unless you like being stranded somewhere where you don't won't to be.

We have an above ground 500 gal tank we use and the company has replaced 3 hoses on our tank since its inception. Bio-Deisel will disolve rubber gaskets to a black guew and eat up rubber o-rings on fuel filters in days. I would not recommend you use it in your boat unless your towboat policy is up to date with unlimited towing.

My 2-cents worth

R,
DQ

[JP Dalik]

Brew I can't speak to Yanmar but Cummins had an up to 20% (this is road engines) rating for bio-fuels with their engines through roughly 2007. After that with the new emmissions they did increase to I believe 30%.

I handle a territory from Maine to Florida and at one time across to the Mississippi River. My customers are transit porperties operating from the harshest mid west winters to the hottest Miami summers. I have several customers running some percentage of bio-fuel in engines from Ser 50 through Cummins ISB, ISL, ISC, ISM.

The most important factor to success was a slow implementation of the fuel. One customer switched to 50% bio fuel and within 2 weeks had failed all of his injectors in the fleet 80 x 6= lots of money. Like Rawleigh said there may be an issue with gelling in colder climates but you can regulate this by the percentage of bio you purchase. Since it should be mixed/blended locally on the island somewher the odds are in your favor that the mixer would understand this.

You may also want to verify with the supplier the requirments they have for lines and go through your fuel lines, fill tubes and vents to make sure they are compatible with the fuel.

Depending on the ratios used there may be loss in fuel economy due to the flash point of the fuel. I've been to several alternative fuel meetings but can't remember for sure if there was a loss or not.

Just take your time if you are going to transition and like Rawleigh said carry extra fuel filters.

Let us know how it works out. I do understand that the smell is changed a litte.

[Dug]

How much savings to you anticipate? Is it enough to pay for the replacement of both engines in a worst case scenario? How quickly would that payback be generated?

I would look at it as a business decision in a sense. Though I am sure you already have.

To me, the risk does not outweigh the reward in this case. As Vic says, the enemy of good is better.

That being said, you put a heck of a lot more hours on your engines than I do on mine. It may be worth it for you.

D

[Brewster Minton]

I did not want to try it and have not yet done so.My engines are diesel and I did not think it was a good idea to run some new fuel through them. I would rather pay more and not have any problems out in the trench. Thanks guys for you answers.

[Dug]

That's exactly where I sit with mine...

[Charlie]

Among the many things I do is sell a COMPLETE laboratory for the manufacture Bio-Diesel. I know what the tests are and which ones are the most important. There are required tests in the USA called BQ-9000. These are required; but one very important is not required for US BD; Methanol content. MeOH is required for EN (Europe export)
Now first question you have to ask is your engine o-rings and seals Bio-Diesel (BD) compatible. You also need to know if your entire fuel system including lines and filters are BD compatible. Next it is important to understand the feed stock. Right now beef tallow is the cheapest; but may gel at 40 degrees F. Bad very bad.
I don't know if anyone wants me to go into the specific chemistry of making BD; but. A simple explanation is you take feed stock ( soy oil, beef tallow, wvo ect) and heat it. Next add a caustic ( lye) then add methanol you then end up with BD. This BD is contaminated with lye, glycerine, methanol, or ethanol if they used ethanol for the transesterification process. Yes your BD is contaminated with ethanol or methanol. This sounds all bad to me; but I will go on. There are additional processes to clean the BD up; what you get at the end of the process can only be determined by lab tests. Do you want to or can you understand the lab results. How do you get a copy for the purchase of a couple hundred gallons at a time?
Things like excess lye are bad. Excess Methanol is bad. Excess glycerine is bad. Glycerine is the feed stock for making soap.
I am all for BD; but not in my boat. Not even at 2%. Most BD blends start at 1% BD 99% diesel and goes up from there. Most correct diesel engines can tolerate 20-30%.
Now for the politics of BD.
Guys make BD. The Federal government gives $1.00 a gallon to the guys who "Blend" the BD. Now the loop hole for the producers. They blend one gallon of diesel to a 1000 gallons of BD and sell it as 99.9% BD 0.1% diesel.
Take away the Federal subsidy and BD goes away. BD can be made very cheaply using beef tallow. You are going to mix BD at maybe a 10% or 20% rate. The final price for your fuel cost for your boat is "chump change". By using BD you risk all kinds of bad things to you engine, fuel system and your fiberglass tank. Not worth it at this point.

[Rawleigh]

And there you have it!

[chris pague]

Just my 2cents I have run trans fluid in my old 6.2 for over a year and athough is smokes more I do not like small cars anyway. Engine runs smoother and has more power. I use used trans fluid and filter it before it goes into the tank. Yea a pain but I was geting for nothing. Gave a trans shop a 50gal drum and kept swaping them out. Just a thought?
Chris
PS Now that I have retired I ?

[Charlie]

Hey Chris I have two Deuce and a halfs that will run diesel or K1 or used motor oil or used AFT or used french fry oil or even gasoline mixed with waste oil or any combination of the above and BD. Old compression diesels can burn just about anything with a high flash point and a low autoignition temperature. Maybe I should put a couple of these in my Bertram and you could try 6.2's. Oops they already tried that and we know how well these held up as boat engines.
Back to my Deuces. I could burn almost anything; but any savings is just small to justify. The Deuces get about 500-1000 miles put on them. That's about 50-100 gallons of diesel. Just not worth the risk of bad crap in the fuel. Now I have a buddy that runs waste AFT all the time; and his Deuces get used for business.

[Rawleigh]

I just bought a Cummins fuel/lube oil blending machine Part Number 3376317 at an auction. It has a large filter for the lube oil and then a polishing filter for the fuel/lube oil blend. The mix is metered by the pumps built in it for a 5% blend I haven't tried it yet, but I got it for $10!! I figured it would at least polish fuel.

[chris pague]

Charlie; All I can say is I ran a 50/50 mix of used atf and refiltered. The engine has over 150,000 at an 25 yr span. you do the math freee atf and mix 50/50 at 6mpg i fig 12 mpg with some extra work
Chris

[Harry Woods]

Brewster,
I understand that Jacksons has a small fortune invested in the tanks and setup for biodiesel. I hope they retain the old stuff. There are to many negatives for me to look to save ten-cents per gallon. Their old diesel has served me well for many years.
Harry

[Charlie]

Hello Harry,
I don't know who the Jacksons are; but just the lab equipment can cost $500,000.00 dollars. That does not count the cost of the personnel or the physical building. I see some producer's taking short cuts on quality testing. They just do the minimum; and I even question that. I walked into a lab the other day. They had BQ-9000 certificates on the walls; but the test equipment was not on the bench! Watch out who you buy BD from. When Diesel gets back to $5.00 dollars a gallon the BD guys are going to get rich. The feed stock can be anything from waste veggie oil, black and brown greases from grease traps, to very nice soybean oil. Think about waste veggie or animals fats. The guys who end up with the waste oil (restaurants) pay to have someone haul it away. The BD manufacture has trucks and tanks and they paid to haul the feed stock away. What a deal!!
I sure hope BD works out. As a fuel I think it is heads and shoulders above Ethanol. By the way I sell the Ethanol testing equipment too.

[Brewster Minton]

Harry, the Jacksons were forced to put in new tanks to put deisel in and they are going to put the BD in the old tanks.