Reconditioned cummins

[Russ]

I'm in the process of ordering reconditioned 6 BTA's. I was told duel disc gears are better than the ZF gears. The engines are 260 H.P. What gear ratio would be most suitable? My boat is a 1976 31 F B. Also would like to know if 1 1/2 shafts are heavy enough? Thanks to all the faithfull in advance! Russ

[CaptPatrick]

Russ,

Both gears are good reliable boxes, but Twin Disc would be my preffered option for the Cummins 260s at a 1.5:1 ratio. 1 1/2" shafts are necessary & Aquamet 22 would be the strongest most corrision resistant shaft material.

Br,

Patrick

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Russ - I have the 6BTA 250's and the 1.53:1 ZF IRM 220A gears with 1-1/2 shafts running 21x22 three blades with no cup. 2,000+ hours with zero problems. Cruise 24.5 kts at 2400 rpm.

The ZF is a good bit lighter than the Twin Disc and mine have been fine with the exception of the two hi pressure tubes on the back that tend to rust out if not kept painted and shot with CX.

Inch & a half shafts in AQ 22 are just fine. You will be real happy with this set up.

UV

[Russ]

Thank you Patrick and Uncle Vic for your replys. Very much usefull as I'm not very knowlegeable about diesels! Thanks again. Russ

[Bill Mckinnon]

Russ,

Just curious as to what you paid for the engines, I am getting ready to go down that road in September. Thanks

[thuddddddd]

I'm under the impression cummins is blowing out what amounts to new motors, as rebuilds for 16k per side. Mostly due to the Epa reg's.

[dougl33]

Tim,

I've been quoted $19k per side for a set of 330's with a gear.

I got this from Tony Athens at boatdiesel.com:

Cummins has recently introduced factory remanufactured Cummins Commercial and Diamond Edition marine engines, "Cummins Reman Marine Repower Packages", that carry a full 1 year 2000 hour warranty. These engines look and perform as new, and are complete--just like a new engine including all new deluxe VDO instruments, etc.. Most all of the parts to build these engines are BRAND NEW, including the entire seawater system and air system, entire electrical system and instruments/harnesses, cylinders, pistons, bearings, valves, seals, all gaskets, bolts etc.. In fact, when side by side w/ a "new" engine, we cannot find one part that is not factory new and of the latest design of option. About the only thing that may be re-manufactured is the injection pump and injectors, and crankshaft. No installation review is required for replacement of a "like" Cummins engine, although all installation guidelines and requirements are owner responsibilities, are the same as with a new Cummins Diamond.......Leads times are about 70-90 days and right now and only the 430/450 8.3 C series, 150 4BT, 210/220 6BT 5.9, 315/330 and 370 Diamonds are available..................

You'll save about $5000-$7000 over new and get an engine every bit as good as new ( per Cummins Reman, they say "better than new"), along w/ a Cummins warranty that is "bumper to bumper" parts and labor for 2000 hours or 12 months.

These are COMPLETE pkgs........FOB Our facility---

A little tidbit-----------------------------------How re-mans came about

Instead of shutting down the production lines, Cummins moved it to Mexico where the remans are made. Their lawyers figured out the EPA rules and found the loop hole needed to keep making these engines "legally" by picking an 4BT 150, a 6BT 220, a 6BTA 315/330 and a 6BTA 370 built in late 2003. The 270 was not popular enough over the years to justify a re-production investment). They copied the spec EXACTLY, got together with Bosch to have them supply a "remanufactured fuel system" ( that was the big loop hole) , and voila, they met the specs to allow them to keep building mechanical engines under the pretext of "reman" . No emission requirements needed to be met as these engine were being made to replace existing engines. BTW, all Bosch had to really do to build the fuel system and put "reman" on it, was to build the new pump, and then run it back thru the assembly process a second time--now it was "remanufactured"---clever guys !!! The biggest problem we are having w/ the remans is lead time ( over 6 months now)................


Terms: 50% down w/ order--factory delivery about 70-90 days as each engine custom is built to spec.........Balance due before pick-up or shipment...

But, keep in mind that we do stock many of these engines so sometimes we can furnish much sooner.. So give us a call to check on what we have for immediate purchase and shipment !!!!!!





Cummins REMAM MARINE PKGS -- NET Bobtail EXPORT pricing (March 06):
(prices reduced due to volume purchasing by us--don't know for how long the factory will hold this pricing)



6BT 5.9 210/220 @ $12, 600.00 ea

4BT 3.9 150/155 @ $10,900.00 ea

6BTA 5.9 315/330 Diamond at $16,100 ea

6BTA 5.9 370 Diamond at $17,100.00 ea

6CTA 8.3 430/450 HP $18,400.00 ea



Factory new ZF 63A marine gear for Cummins B at $3000 ea installed complete**

Factory new ZF 220A marine gear for Cummins B at $3900 ea installed complete**

Factory new ZF 280A marine gear for Cummins B or C series at $5300 ea installed complete**

**(ZF just raised $$ again--it's the Euro/US Dollar thing and if the dollar does not keep dropping, we expect another increase soon)





All engines come complete w/ deluxe VDO gage panels a 20Ft harness, and equipped as a factory new engine.



OPTIONS:

Oil drain hose kit at $45 ea

2- groove pulley at $170 ea

Custom transmission "L" brackets--made to customer width/height/spec at $200 per set

Handed "oil filter kit" for 315/370 Diamond at $200 ea

HD Barry Isolation mounts at $300 per set of 4 w/ engine purchase (included w/ eng/trans pkg)

Cummins factory 6" wet SS elbow/kit at $400 ea ordered w/ engine

Cummins factory 5" wet SS elbow/kit at $300 ea ordered w/ engine

No instruments and no harnesses--deduct $400 ea

Longer harness/ per 10 ft increments -- add $4 /ft-- all "plug and play"

Export "fully boxed" crating-- $125 ea

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Dug, don't use the small 5011A Twin Disc gears, theyaren't rated for that much power. Go with the bigger, and more expensive gear - don't remember the number right now. I am using 5011A's in 2:1 ratio, with 1.5" shafts, turning 22 x 24 3 blade Nibrals with my Cummins, which are probably around 260 - 270 hp at this point. The gears are possibly marginal with this hp.

Bruce would know more.

[bob lico]

:D doug you have that straight, i have two in the shop right now dated may 25, 2006 --- 6bta 315 hp. definitly a epa thing these are the latest and the greatest every known revision,doug check out the water pump, wow sombody finally listen to pleas of a thousand mechanics- fully adjustable water outlet!!! stagger bolt patern on pump. 10 year could remove in the dark.remanufacture ---yea right with a 2006 qsb storm block with larger camshaft bushing and a 2006 crank because the bearing surports are beef up for the electronic qsb.the block has all the electronic tapped holes for ecm and sensors.dyno for 41minutes and 37 seconds

[bob lico]

doug i should have mention buy 1 engine with remote oil filter,use on starboard.with this both oil filters facing the gangway.you can change oil filters with a suit and tie on. for 45.00 each buy :D oil drain hose comes from bottom rear of oil pan and is coast guard best"blue hose"as well as all the rest on engine.dip stick tap hole is identical on both sides remove port engine dip stick and move to opposite side (both sticks face gangway"engines tested at2785 rpm at 314hp.full rpm at 3250 -----yes better than "new".this is REAL HP not "rated".thank god for lawyers.let me see i am confused buy a mercruiser and deal with ethanol or go diesel for a few dollars more.i think of the movie "my cousin vinney"where the lawyer meets the punk in the bar looking for a bet payoff.the punk says "i am going to kick you ass"and say after conterplating let me see get my ass kick or collect $ 500.00.after a delay he says i will take the 500.that about sums it up.

[JK]

Speaking of ZF transmissions, I have the 220a's and am completely drawing a blank on how much fluid they hold. I need to change the oil in the trans...any idea how much they hold?

See you guys in a few weeks.

--JK

[Bruce]

Bob,
The way I figure it on the 330 with gear, mounts, shipping, crating and all the standard stuff it surpasses the 20k mark not to mention the upgrade of the running gear at somewheres around 2 to 3k a side.

Now that would put a basic setup for a pair around 46k with running gear improvements. less installation.

Now 22k will buy two new Merc inboards, no driveline upgrade and just for shits and gigles throw in 3k for a new tank.

Now math wasn't my favorite subject, but 25k is a fair piece from 46k.
More than just a little more.

Now diesel is my choice, but the difference of 21k will buy a fair amount of gas even at todays rate and make replacing an old set of gassers affordable to a lot of 31 owners who just use their boats occasionaly.

[JohnD]

Bruce I agree with your thingking.

The only other factor is range, which can possibly be solved by installing a larger tank.

If you've got a generator, then there's another $8-$10k to add in.

For my B35 if I repower with cummins (excluding labor) it comes to around $70k plus. It may be bossible to get ahold of rebuild 3208's for about $5k less per side?? But that's still $55k at the very least. Every way I look at it, new gas will be then answer unless I win the lotto :D Until then I'll keep my old crusaders the best I can, they really do last longer than you think.

It all comes down to this:

If you've got the $$ do it, convert to diesel you'll be happy. The rebuilt cummins will save you big over the new motors and are much more simple.

And, if you don't have the $$ new gas a viable option.


br,
JohnD

[ed c.]

Bruce & John D. , have you ever been on a boat that is on fire with gas engines? I was and i was lucky enough to swim away before it blew. Also the price difference from gas to diesel in my area of South Jersey is 88 cents. The gas engines use much more fuel at any speed. I have owned 3 bertrams and a boat with diesels always commands a much higher price when you go to sell it.. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Bruce]

Ed,
I can understand your comcern with gas boats after the incident you were involved in.
But the fact of the matter is gas boat fires are caused by carelessness or lack of maintenance leading to leaks from rotted hose, bad hose clamps corroded fuel tanks, bad wiring
.
If gas boats were that inherently dangerous, they would be self combusting like the drummers in Spinal Tap.

The reason why a diesel boat commands a higher price is because of the intial cost of the diesels.
If you go to buy a new boat that has both gas and diesel options the diesel will cost more not because of better fuel milage or a longer life. It costs more because the diesel costs more. The former is just a benefit of the diesel.

The cost of gas and diesel in my area is about the same. In some marinas I have seen the diesel higher.
And yes gas engines will use more fuel. How much more depends on alot of factors including how far you have to run to fish or travel and how heavy a foot you have.

Like I had said I prefer diesel, but not everyone has 50 to 60k to do a basic diesel conversion on top of the purchase price, dockage, insurance, maintenance, or able to afford an already diesel conversion in a 31.
There are some who don't have to travel 70 miles one way to fish and only picnic with the boat.

Those that can afford the diesel option are fortunate.
But in reality its more than just a little.

[Rocket]

I would prefer to run diesels as well, but another argument on the gas side is that diesels like to be used. Alot. If you are not outting the hours on them, then gassers are more forgiving. I know we all fantasize about using our boats more, but the reality is look at your hour meter. :cry: