Running take outs

[trace elements]

What is everyone’s thoughts on repowering with running take outs? Anybody repowered with running take out?


Also, if you were shopping for a pair of 6bt running take outs, what would you look out for?

[scenarioL113]

It comes down to the obvious that if they are good runners than should be no problem.

With that said, you need to know the history of them and the hours that are on them. If you do not have good info then it is a tough call on what you should do before you install them.

6bt have less maintenance to look at than a 6bta does. If these engines are taken care of they will go the long haul.

I would want to see them run on the pallet if they are not currently installed. It is better than nothing to at least see them run although it will only tell you so much. Realistically you need to have them run under load to know where they are at. Basic things can be checked like compression test etc...
If you are just not sure then:
Try to run them and check the oil PSI and see if you can get the temperature up a bit to check the oil PSI when warm
Do a compression test
have the injectors pop tested
pull the wet elbow off the exhaust to check for corrosion at the turbo
check play on the turbo shaft

maybe some others can chime in a suggest things to look for also

Whatever that may need to be done will be easier to do when they are still out of the boat

[Carl]

I did just that, bought 6BT RTO's. I had an engine surveyor go check them out for me as best he could on a pallet. Not all that much to check, aside from start-up and go through the list Frank mentioned.

I was told two things to check for by some friends who are diesel mechanics...they should start immediately from cold, if not it may be a compression issue. Some smoke on startup is ok, excessive amounts is not a good thing. I would have liked an oil survey...but oil was fresh and clean. I was also told to look for excessive burn on any one of the exhaust ports by the head...to see if one was overheating. Fresh paint...so again, not an option for me. But the temps were shot when running on the pallet.

Anyway, motors ran great on the pallet...I however had an underlying fear all during my conversion and installation they may not run under load. Going out on my first run was nerve-racking to say the least...will they run under load, will they hit WOT, will they overheat...will I hear them grenade and be calling Sea-tow to get back. That was rather bothersome as my first sea trial was with a storm coming in fast.

If I had my choice, I'd have rather bought from a running boat that I sea trialed before pulling the motors so I knew how they ran prior to pulling. I did not have that choice, I bought from a member here...that also never ran them, but had some history...He purchased and sent to a reliable shop to have them serviced, where they had them running, gave a clean bill of health. So I had that kinda going for me along with my surveyor. It was still in my head to some degree a crapshoot...that is the price one pays for RTO's.

Yes, it would be much easier to service the motors when sitting on your shop floor prior to installing...but here is the rub...do you spend lots of money and time changing hoses and other maintenance items before you know if they will run.

Two years and they are running good, very happy with the purchase.

[trace elements]

I did just that, bought 6BT RTO's. I had an engine surveyor go check them out for me as best he could on a pallet. Not all that much to check, aside from start-up and go through the list Frank mentioned.

I was told two things to check for by some friends who are diesel mechanics...they should start immediately from cold, if not it may be a compression issue. Some smoke on startup is ok, excessive amounts is not a good thing. I would have liked an oil survey...but oil was fresh and clean. I was also told to look for excessive burn on any one of the exhaust ports by the head...to see if one was overheating. Fresh paint...so again, not an option for me. But the temps were shot when running on the pallet.

Anyway, motors ran great on the pallet...I however had an underlying fear all during my conversion and installation they may not run under load. Going out on my first run was nerve-racking to say the least...will they run under load, will they hit WOT, will they overheat...will I hear them grenade and be calling Sea-tow to get back. That was rather bothersome as my first sea trial was with a storm coming in fast.

If I had my choice, I'd have rather bought from a running boat that I sea trialed before pulling the motors so I knew how they ran prior to pulling. I did not have that choice, I bought from a member here...that also never ran them, but had some history...He purchased and sent to a reliable shop to have them serviced, where they had them running, gave a clean bill of health. So I had that kinda going for me along with my surveyor. It was still in my head to some degree a crapshoot...that is the price one pays for RTO's.

Yes, it would be much easier to service the motors when sitting on your shop floor prior to installing...but here is the rub...do you spend lots of money and time changing hoses and other maintenance items before you know if they will run.

Two years and they are running good, very happy with the purchase.

Carl,

What were the major work items when you replaced your 440s with the RTOs?
I imagine:

Engine beds
struts
shafts
fuel tank add return/replace
exhaust
engine wiring to bridge

[Ironworker]

It depends?

How long are you going to keep the boat?
Where will you be boating? 100NM offshore or booze cruising in the ICW?
How many hours are you going to put on the boat each year.
How thick is your wallet?

[Carl]

Carl,

What were the major work items when you replaced your 440s with the RTOs?
I imagine:

Engine beds
struts
shafts
fuel tank add return/replace
exhaust
engine wiring to bridge

Engine beds
Yes, I cut down the original beds, replaced one of the sister beams as it had dry rot. Then I capped with Alum channel and made a set of Alum risers...basically, I followed Capt Patricks tips from Buddy Boy in his Building Tips section. Lowering the original beds with risers I think is a great way to open up and have complete access to the motors. Is it really needed...maybe not but it also ties together the stringer and sister. Others have just bolted mounts directly to stringer... I also took the open area to clean and paint the engine bay.


struts
Yes, I had to go for struts. Some boats are setup with 1=3/8" shafts which would have been adequate for the 210's. Some of those struts can even be bored out larger for 1-1/2" shafts. Not my luck, I had 1-1/4" shafts with the small struts for 1:1 ratio and 15" wheels. So it was make new struts for me. Larger, taller and went 11degrees down angle. I believe High Tide sells them if your won't work.
This was also a good time to add a better strut backing pad...thin hull in this area its been recommended to replace original with a larger pad.


shafts
If going with 6BT 210's and you have 1-3/8" shafts you are ok keeping them. 6BTA's 250's is marginal.
I had 1-1/4" shafts...too small so I had to up a size. Since everything else was being done...I went up two sizes to 1-1/2" shafts. If I ever decide I want more power, I sell the 210's and in go the 250's, 270's or 315's.

Wheels
slower turning wheels with lots of torque need more diameter...so a pair of 20" wheels were needed.

Packing gland
I had no problems keeping the old flax packing...but going with fiberglass shaft log I felt better with log being glassed inside and outside hull with lots of glass all around for support. So...doing that meant I had to worry about no water in the glad at speed, which meant I needed to add water to cool. At that point it made sense to just change over to dripless packing glands. I went the way Tony Meola went with the Lip seal style...No Bellows, no rotating seal to give problems.


fuel tank add return/replace
My tank was fine, I just had to empty, clean, empty again then start filling. I did up the hose size, even though not required for the 210's. I also had to add return fittings. Something I did not know, it was advised to plumb the return lines to the bottom of the tank to avoid making bubbles in the fuel. True or not, I brazed extensions to the bottom of the fitting.

Racor Fuel filters
Sit down when you price them, then remember you need two of them.


exhaust
Yup, we did exhaust. I had 4" and went 5" with mufflers. I also have an older Express with the lower cockpit floor, lower rudder shelf so getting 5" transom flanges to fit was a challenge. They are also kinda pricey. If I could paint I'd have glassed-in a tube for exhaust ports over using the SS flanges. If going 6BT 220's Tom and I believe Walter ran straight 4" exhaust. I think the 6bt is ok sound wise when running, but too loud trolling or idle with stright pipe.

engine wiring to bridge
Yes and no. Yes the boat was rewired...but having an Express I have no bridge, so wiring ran to the back panel at the head which is the backside of my helm.

Shaft Log
I almost used my original shaft log...it kinda fit with very little wiggle room. SO I glassed in a fiberglass shaft log. A few hundred for the tubes and it took me a long time to get them glassed in. The weather and available time did not cooperate.

[trace elements]

Carl,

What did the shop do to your cummins when you dropped them off?

Found an old boat with 210 cummins in it that can be had cheap. Engines had major overhaul around 2008 and only 250 hours since. Wondering if it is worth buying the boat for the engines and junking the rest of the boat.

I just dont want to go through the effort to find the engines are junk.

[Carl]

A member on the board brought them to the shop. From what ai understand they ran them, hooked up the transmission lines and had injection pump sent out to be serviced, ran again and checked motors after.

Before I picked up the motors, I had them install a wiring harness and had them replace both belt tensioners as my surveyor thought they weren’t quite up to par. My guys also thought they heard a little lope when started the first time…then cleared up. I was going to have shop replace all injectors… but the owner went out to check motor again and told me to save my money, motors ran perfect. So I left it at that.

If you can get motors started and running, have them surveyed, if possible sea trial, and decide. My understanding is they are pretty good motors, the 210,s are at the low end of the being pushed hard scale and should last a good long while. However, any motor neglected in a boating environment has a hard life easily shortened.

Best advice, go look-see, if thinking maybe, have them checked out.

[scenarioL113]

Cummins 210 HP 6BTs are the "Dirt simple" end of the spectrum.

They are old school and use CAV injection pumps.

The entire engine is simple in the fact that there is no special add-ons that end up hurting them...like fuel coolers and aftercoolers and such...

Once running they dont even need 12volts to keep running "if" you have the fuel shutoff solenoid by-passed...yes they are that simple.

The biggest issue would possibly be the CAV pumps bc they dont like to be "not used" for extended periods of time. If they sit they tend to get corrosion inside the pump that causes all kinds of issues. This is why I would like to see if they had proper filtration in their current setup. Good filtration with proper fuel water separators would be a good sign on their prior history but remember they could be 30 year old engines...

The injectors are simple and not that expensive to have serviced.

There is tons of aftermarket and oem parts availability.

I personally would not be afraid of 210 RTOs bc of their simplicity.

sbmar/seaboard marine has so much online support for cummins guys that almost anyone can troubleshoot a 4bt/6bt series engine just by searching that forum...

[Marshall Mahoney]

Can you do your own mechanic work? I did not have $50,000 for new engines (still don't). I can fumble my way thru an engine and have some crafty friends to help and guide me -- which is key. I took a chance on a pair of used engines -- one running and one requiring rebuild -- $5K each, and included ZF220A gearboxes.
What makes a marine engine so expensive are the bolt on components (turbo, fuel pump, exchangers, etc). I assumed I would have to replace a couple of the bolt on items (found out the coolant exchanger was bad), and worse case, if the block was toast, a refurbished long block was about $5K. Complete rebuild kits were about $2K. Got lucky and no major issues found. But even if major issues were found, I still think I would have invested 1/2 of the price of new.