Bertram 25 Express

[Orvil]

First post here. I recently acquired a 1963 Bertram 25 Express. Not sure if this is an unpopular model because I don’t see many of them around, but the large birth area will work out great for my family. It runs and actually got to take it for a short ride before purchasing, but it does need some love which I plan to give it in the near future. It has twin 3.0l LX Mercruisers also, which I’m really interested in the amount of fuel I will need as the boat only has a 38 gallon fuel capacity currently (twin Moeller 19 gal tanks). I’m open to hear any info anyone might have about this model as I can’t really find much.

[mike ohlstein]

Welcome to the club....

You probably have no fuel tank because the original tank was destroyed by ethanol fuel and the owner at that time didn't want to spend the money on a new one. How much fuel you need is pretty much a function of how far you intend to go, and how often you're going to use the boat. At cruise, you'll likely get between 1.2 and 1.7 mpg, and ethanol laced gas doesn't last very long in a wet environment, so.... plan accordingly. High Tide makes an 80 gallon tank for you boat.

http://www.hightidemarine.cc/fuel-tanks.htm

[Ttownthomas]

Why would he put in a fiberglass tank instead of an aluminum one? Cost? Safety?

[Orvil]

Thanks Mike. I’m in the Georgia Coastal area, so it’ll mostly be used for beach trips and cruising around the intracoastal. I’d like to be able to get out to the Gulfstream but pretty sure it’s about a 80-90 mile trip off the coast and that doesn’t look possible without some serious mods to add larger than factory tanks. The previous owner said exactly what you’ve mentioned and he only used it for cruising around a big lake so 38 gallons probably worked great for him. I’ve tried contacting Hightide previously, but no luck yet. Florida Marine tank has provided me with a pretty good quote for an aluminum replacement so I might go that direction.

[Orvil]

Why would he put in a fiberglass tank instead of an aluminum one? Cost? Safety?

High tides website says they have replacement fiberglass tanks but after looking further into it, it appears that they fabricate aluminum replacement tanks. Have yet to get in contact with them, but I haven’t seen any other fiberglass replacements anywhere else.

[CamB25]

I used fmt for my tank. I have a design drawing for twins if you need one. Great looking boat!

[Orvil]

Thanks Cam. I’d definitely like to see your design. The quote I got from FMT was based off another drawing I found online, which looked good after I verified the measurements. With the current tanks installed it’s hard to tell, but I wasn’t positive if the angles on the bottom LH and RH sides would be necessary. If not I could add almost another 12 gallons of fuel to the design.

[Carl]

Those LH and RH Angles usually mimic the angle of the hull allowing tank to nestle deeper into bilge.



Welcome aboard!

Your boat looks like the little sister to my 31 Express. Aesthetically the express is not my favorite, but for usage, you cannot beat the design.

[mike ohlstein]

Why would he put in a fiberglass tank instead of an aluminum one? Cost? Safety?

In time, aluminum falls victim to corrosion. Salt water in the bilge, electrolysis, etc. Fiberglass pretty much lasts forever, and if you need to repair or modify it, you can do that without a welder.

[Orvil]

Just spoke with someone from hightide and their fiberglass tank supplier went out of business, they now supply 80 gallon aluminum tanks with a ceramic coating and all hardware for approx $1200, which I feel is a pretty good deal as far as the other quotes I’ve gotten. May end up going that direction.

[CamB25]

If your 1963 stringer set-up is original, you will need to modify it to place the single tank. 80 gallons is just about the limit for the given volume in the boat. Adding more requires a sawzall and/or portable tanks. PM your e-mail address and I'll give you a data dump early next week.

A couple of shots of my 63 sport convertible OEM arrangement. Not sure if there were adjustments made for the Express model:

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/my ... YJATF6ZHjS

Cam

[mike ohlstein]

Stick with the 80 gallons. If you want to go to the edge, get a bladder and take it with you.

http://atlinc.com/rangeextender.html

[Orvil]

The bladder seems like a great idea. I’m not really wanting to do a bunch of cutting this thing up at this point, so I’m gonna stick with the 80 gallons.

Cam are you saying with the new single 80 gallon tank I’ll have to modify or remove the center stringer? I was hoping to just have to add some more support from the center stringer to the next outboard stringers for the tank to rest on. Either way I’ll do what has to get done, just going into new territory here.

[John Swick]

I'm pretty sure the express model came with a single ~80 gallon fuel tank under the floor in the center of the cockpit.
Just like the Bahia Mar.
You don't have to modify anything to get 80 to 100 gallons of capacity.
That boat looks to be in good original condition.
Have fun.

[John Swick]

Tank was on a shelf at the centerline ahead of motors/batteries and behind the bulkhead for the step down into the cabin.

[Orvil]

That’s what it appears to look like. There is a center stringer that’s about 6 inches tall and about 4 inches wide, but even with that there’s a lot of room before floor level. These drop in tanks are about 13 inches tall and I’m assuming you need 4-6 to niches for connections. I’ll have to double check the measurement from the stringer to the floor hatch. I’m not going to do anything crazy at this moment, I think 80 gallons will serve me well and if I need to get out further I’ll go the route with the bladder tank. Below is what I’m currently working with. Got about 25 gallons of old fuel to get rid of

[CamB25]

Orvil. Make a cardboard template of the crossection of the tank design I sent to you to check fit. Adjust length to conform to your available space. Not rocket science. I think my design will be very close. Leave a little room around sides and bottom for adding 1/4 inch strips of rubber to prevent tank from making hard contact with boat..also prevents water traps

[Orvil]

Thanks for sending that design Cam. I’ll check the fit and get a quote, but I feel like it’s going to be hard to beat the price of the tank from hightide marine. If by chance it does fit on top of the center stringer it’ll work out great, I’ll have less modifications required and it’ll keep it out of the water. I appreciate all the help and different ideas everyone has had to this point. I’ll definitely have more questions as work goes on.

I just started evaluating some soft spots in the foredeck that were noted during the survey. This will probably end up being a whole other thread, but pretty sure the windows have been leaking and that’s where the water intrusion came from. Hopefully it’s just a matter of rebedding the windows, then I can put my composite working skills to the test, never done fiberglass on boats but have done several aircraft composite repairs and lay ups, I feel pretty confident with this, my wife doesn’t agree though

[ktm_2000]

Orvil,

a local welder is making up my tank, I did some of the surgery that Cam is alluding to and my tank will end up being 140 gallons. The quote on the tank from the local welder is $1450 3/8" aluminum.

From your Pics, it looks like you have more head room to the bottom of your deck. If you are having a tank fabricated, see if you can make it taller and get some more capacity out of it. I would do as Cam suggests and make a cardboard template and see how much room you have the go from there.

[Seapalm]

Aluminum tanks work great if cared for properly. I always coat the exterior surfaces with two coats of a product made for military marine fuel tanks manufactured by Sherwin Williams called “Coal Tar Epoxy”. It is exactly what the title describes, a two part epoxy that thickens up like tar, comes in Black or Grey. Two coats will be thicker than 1/8” of an inch. Sherwin Williams has a Commercial Marine Coatings division and May take time to locate but worth the effort.
Best to you on the project!

[Orvil]

I’ll definitely look into that. I’m going to order my tank today I think. Seller said it comes with some kind of ceramic(?) coating, but I’m sure I can always add some extra protection.

[HotSpot]

Congrats, Orvil

Your hull number is interesting...

From what I had read here and on other sites, is that for earlier boats, the 25-301 hull ID decodes to
25 = model
3 = version (1-moppie, 3-express, etc.. not sure of all the specifics)
01 = The rest is the unit number.

So, does this mean that this hull 25-301 is the first express 25 ever produced?

Maybe some of the experienced guys can chime in.

[ktm_2000]

first I heard of the number meaning anything, other than the 25 part.

I googled and there was a thread on B31's having model significance, so it is likely 25's had similar
http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.php?p=61129

Here's data on my hull - I have a sport convertible 25-455, written in large letters with black magic marker on port side in v-birth which was under the carpeted sides, I found a second location glassed into hull under cabin floor panel, states hull laid 11/1963 same handwriting style.

It was sold to me as a 1964 model, rounded windshield helm to starboard.

[HotSpot]

ktm.

If your hull is 25-455 and mine is 25-109, and they are BOTH sport convertibles, it seems the first digit probably has no significance regarding version.

I may have incorrectly assumed the 31's ID convention was similar to the 25's.

Orvil, I apologize for the false alarm. Please proceed with the sawsall.

[Orvil]

Ktm I think you are correct. From other pictures of B25’s that I’ve seen I feel like my rear deck is a little higher giving me a little more space under the floor. Not really sure on the difference in floor level between other B25 models. The current Moeller tanks installed are 19 gal tanks and they sit on each side of the center stringer, they are approximately 18” tall and I have a good 8” inches more to floor level. I was thinking about this situation yesterday and decided to wait on ordering a tank until I get the old ones out and get good measurements.

Had me excited there for a minute thinking I had the first express . I wasn’t sure I’d be a fan until I saw it in person, this thing has some real overnighter potential. I’m 6’2” and can stand up straight with about 4” of clearance in the cabin. I can lay down with about a foot of clearance on both ends on the bed. I would have loved a flybridge model but I had to keep the family in mind.

Considering what I paid for this boat and it actually ran, which I thought it wouldn’t for the price, I feel like I got a steal. For 56 years old it’s held up well. Hopefully I can get some use out of it before I start cutting it open on the foredeck to get at these soft spots, probably better to fix them sooner than later though.

[ktm_2000]

Orvil,

The decks on the express and Bahia Mar are higher than the sport convertibles and fly-bridge models. Here's a pic I found a long time ago and saved of a deck removed from what I believe was an express
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AqPGwTDiMozwYDWU6

notice in the middle of the boat the deck is a foot or more above the height of the stringers, in my hull the deck sits flat on top of the stringers in that area. That difference in height should provide you the room for more fuel if you want to add capacity. In my case I made removed the center stringer to only need one tank as well as the battery box and made the tank longer to hit 140 gallons.

You have a lot of options with the height. I would use all of them before I did any surgery.

just a thought for a simple tank, a flat board on top of where the 2 individual tanks were, would allow a box shaped tank.

[CamB25]

I was thinking about this situation yesterday and decided to wait on ordering a tank until I get the old ones out and get good measurements.

Wise plan

[Orvil]

I had a feeling this was the case, I’m happy you could confirm that for me. I’m honestly a little nervous about cutting into the center stringer, but from reading other threads it appears the center stringer is not needed as it wasn’t installed on later models. If I remove that portion of the stringer I’m looking at a tank that’s approximately 39.25x43x18 or maybe 20 deep. Which comes out to roughly 130 gallons probably about 10-15 less with the angles added to the LH and RH side. Hopefully the hull can handle the weight in such a small footprint.

When you remove the center stringer are you adding some kind of supports to set the tank on or does it set directly on the hull with a neoprene mat cushioning it?

[ktm_2000]

before you go too far, lets see if you can hit your goal without cutting anything

It looks like your current tanks are sitting above the height of the center stringer. If that is the case and they are 13" tall, I think you can do quite a bit without changing anything.

If you do the math (43" Wide x 39" Long x 13" Tall ) / 231 = @94 gallons

If you put a flat panel on top of the stringers, you could probably cheat the length longer both front and back to get more capacity, If you have more room to grow taller, even more

theoretical calc if you grew the length 2" on either side and the height 2 more inches

(43" Wide x 41" Long x 15" Tall) / 231 = @114 gallons

[Orvil]

Well now you got me thinking. All these decisions to make. If removing the center stringer isn’t some crazy procedure, I could lay the tank in deeper, make it slightly taller for more capacity and still have some room to maybe fabricate a storage bin to mount above it for extra storage for ropes, tools, parts, etc. apart from a closet this thing doesn’t have much storage, precious owner had the fenders stuffed down there by the fuel tanks. If weather allows, I’ll pull the current tanks out today and get measurements. I like the direction this is going, the knowledge you guys can provide is amazing, thank you.

[CamB25]

You'll make a simple tank shelf for the tank to rest upon. See example here:

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/-P ... _2k-MFqr_G

[ktm_2000]

I did similar to Cam.

The center stringer actually has another stringer inside of it, I wouldn't mess with that one, it is only @3" tall . If you leave the center stringer at the height of the bottom of the board, it will have a larger surface area to spread the weight over.

[Orvil]

Alright, I’m going to work towards getting the tanks out today if the rain lets up, then evaluate the situation. I’m definitely liking the idea of removing the center stringer and laying the tank and low as I can to create some possible storage space.