Suggestions to remove stuck fasteners - re-bedding bow rail

[incoming]

Most of the stanchions on the bow rail on my B38 are starting to corrode. It seems the PO bedded the fasteners and sealed under the stanchions with 5200 and they are all now letting water in. Thought it would be simple enough to rebed the fastners properly but I can’t get them out. Many simply won’t budge (thanks to the 5200). Others just spin in the hole and don’t back out (assume the wood they are bedded in are too soft for threads to grip).

Any suggestions of how to get these suckers out? Also, should I drill out the holes some, fill with epoxy, and tap or just bed new screws in 4200?

[Yannis]

I cut the two retaining bolts per stanchion base with a sawzall and threw them away. Closed the holes with grp and painted over, no one can see where they once were.
Made new holes and put new supports with my new bow rail. You need two ppl to do the mounting job, one on deck, the other down below.

PS: as we have a lot of back and forths to the bow when mooring, I realized that the day that my foot would get stuck between the rail and the window corner wouldn't be far, I decided to move the aftmost stanchion support further forward towards the bow, well clear of the window frame, allowing a safer passage. This is in a 28. In your 38 you dont have this kind of worries!

[Stephan]

Heat is a good ally to defeat 5200. I think it takes 200 deg but the 5200 will fail then and you can back the screw out.
If the heads break and there is enough fastener sticking up yanking with a vice grip or a pry bar can work. If they broke off flush and you don't mind making the hole a little bigger load up an extractor https://www.amazon.com/Single-Screw-Ext ... ill+remove and you may be done quickly.
Good luck,
Stephan

[Tony Meola]

I am not familiar with the 30, but can you see the screws/bolts from the bottom? They should have a nut on them. You need to get that nut off. The ones spinning you should be able to hit and pop out from the bottom.

Those that are stuck after you remove the nut will be another story. You need to heat just the bolt, a very small area. Possibly putting soldering Iron on the head to heat the bolt might help break the 5200. You might be able to get them to turn after the nut is off the screw.

Otherwise try spraying them with Debond.

[Rawleigh]

As Tony said, a large soldering iron applied to the heads of the screws can soften the 5200.

[Yannis]

Tony and Rawleigh,

You mean to say that after the screws are cut from belowdecks and the nut disposed of, you still have to heat the remaining bolt? Wouldnt just a bang upwards send it in orbit?
What is this 5200 ? Is it like sikaflex ?

[incoming]

I am not familiar with the 30, but can you see the screws/bolts from the bottom? They should have a nut on them. You need to get that nut off. The ones spinning you should be able to hit and pop out from the bottom.

I guess that could be my problem but I thought they were screwed in, not bolted with nuts. If there's a nut in there somewhere, I have no idea how you could get to it. Here's a couple of photos:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AutF37FawUydbNJl2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/k701avefBCdid6WG2

[Yannis]

Nicholas,

These look like bolts to me.
You have to go find them below and with the help of someone else on the deck try to unscrew the nuts, or else, if they cannot be undone, cut the nuts off with a sawzall or a dremel or a saw.

[Tony Meola]

Nicholas

I have not been on a 38 in years but what you have to do is take a look in the cabin, perhaps up in the forward berth area and the anchor locker. In the anchor locker you might have a clear view of the bolts and the nuts since there is no headliner.

For any stanchions that may bolt through in the forward berth area, you would have to take down the headliner, then you should have a access to those nuts.

If the railing goes beyond that then you will need to try and see if you can get access, perhaps a stoarage area, locker or something that will give you access.

Now to answer Yannis question, once the nuts are off the bolt should spin and you should be able to pop it out by hitting it from the bottom.

I have had bolts that someone coated with 5200 and I was still able to turn them out without heat or any chemical. If they dont budge then go to heat and or chemical.

Good luck

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

5200 is almost permanent. Tensile Strength 1000 psi, 700 psi

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/ ... 048&rt=rud

[Yannis]

Tony,

We use a sikaflex product intended for marine use, of the Sika company, not 3M, that is very similar if not identical.
There is a code number attached to it, but I can't remember it. Maybe 291?
Anyway, this is a permanent bond product too, but normally one should be able to break the bond when turning a screw or bolt that is embedded into it.
Then it should be a matter of time how to remove that bolt, either from the top by pulling, or from the bottom by pushing upwards.

Also, can you please share how you copy URL addresses into the B31 site. Not pictures, this took me some time but managed to finally grasp it!

Nicholas,

Are your verticals at every stanchion welded or hex screwed at their connection to the bow rail?
If they are not welded, just remove the small allen screw and after having also removed the 3 bolts at the base, hammer the stanchion base outwards. You may want to slide a cutter blade between stanchion and deck to cut the 5200 before you start hammering.
This should free it from the deck and you could clean it thoroughly, apply new 5200 or whatever other sealing compound and put it back in the same holes.
Even if the holes are maybe a bit too wide it doesn't matter so much, as it will be the new washer and nut that will hold it in place. Use wide and as thick washers as possible.
If the holes are way too wide, then you might have to glass them and re-drill them.
Send a picture of where your headliner meets the hull sides, it may be easier for someone to advise you where to start undoing the liner to find those bolts.

[Rawleigh]

Yannis: 5200 is a very flexible and strong product. You could punch a bolt through as you are talking about (although that is not as easy as it sounds with this stuff), but for screws, which I assumed his were, the flexibility of the product makes it hard to break loose, even with an impact hammer. It will twist and then pull the fastener back to its old position. Heat breaks the bond to the screw and allows it to be backed out without destroying anything.

[Tony Meola]

Tony,Also, can you please share how you copy URL addresses into the B31 site. Not pictures, this took me some time but managed to finally grasp it!

Yannis

I open a second tab and go to the web page I want to share. Then I highlight the URL and copy it then just come over to the 31 Tab and paste it to the discussion.

[Yannis]

Thanks Tony,

How about a "word" document that is included as an attachment inside an e- mail?
When I click "copy" and then go to the B31 site, it doesn't allow me to paste.
Same when I "save as" this document into my computer files. It doesn't allow pasting into B31.
There must be a step that I ignore...

[Raybo Marine NY]

The rail is either bolted, or even worse threaded into aluminum plates.
Sometimes takes a good day to access all the nuts on the backside.

Being that some are spinning and not going anywhere seems likely they are thru-bolted. It’s also not uncommon to have a combo of 2 bolts and one screw if there was poor access

[incoming]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I had thought because the fastener tops were countersunk-style phillips heads that they were screws. But if they are bolts that would explain my problem. I will look through the anchor locker and see if I can see any of them. I'll post a picture but I don't think my headliner goes all the way to the hull side. I seem to remember there is a "box" section that runs along the hull side at the corner of where the hullside meets the top on the interior. I'm not sure how I'd remove it. But I'll shoot a photo or two and post them.

And to answer the question from Yannis - the rails are not welded to the stanchions, they are held in place by a set screw. So removing the rails would be an option if i need to try to pry the stanchion loose.

[Yannis]

If the rail is not one piece you can do that. But I doubt that prying a stanchion loose is your problem.
If the rail is one piece, or one piece per side, try to undo all the set allen screws first and then go locate the aftmost rail extremity and loosen it from below.
Inevitably you will have to remove everything in your way to find those nuts...unfortunately.
Furthermore, Murphy’s law stipulates that your last bolt will be impossible to undo!

[incoming]

Good suggestion to peek through the anchor locker. They are indeed bolts. Which means it's going to be a two person job and I'll have to figure out some way to get to the nuts from the inside. There is a rectangular "box" shaped corner piece between the topside and hull with headliner material glued to it that will almost certainly have to come off in the v birth and staterooms. Below is a couple of photos of the v-berth and bunkroom from when i recently had the hull sides re-upholstered. Hopefully it's just a matter of removing that piece to get to them. But the bow rail goes all the way back to the saloon - so I have no idea short of cutting into the saloon wall below the window how i'd get to those...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PT17Qw2dX6C8mitF3
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Whn7UkzvThfP8zut2

[Stephan]

ViceGrips can be as good as a helper (or better) for jobs like this. Just lock them on to the nut and let them land against the hull as you remove the bolt from above deck.
My bow rail had a mix of bolts and screws. Perhaps the ones you can not get at the back of are just screws. in any event you may be able to grind the head off and punch the bolt in the replace with a screw.
Good luck!
Stephan

[Yannis]

If the principle is the same as in the 28, then there should be a gap between the hull sides and the gunwale that is covered by the original lining, as the old glue suggests. Looks like you have to undo the top part of the lining to expose this void space and try to locate the bolts.The top part of the lining should be secured in place with a wooden strip besides the glue, so remove that one first.