East Wind - Spring 2011

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 16th, '11, 20:51

Peter

If I remember correctly, on the original wiring the battery switches did not allow you to link both batteries up for starting. You had to use the parrallel switch. That is how ours was wired from the factory. When the parallel switch is thrown, you should be hearing a clicking sound as it activates. Mine used to be pretty load click. I could hear it while I was up on the bridge.

On the repower, I can parrell the house to either engine and if needed I can actually bring the all three battery banks on line to start an engine.

A little over kill maybe, but after another boat down my way spent a couple of days drifting offshore without power for a couple days, I figure not a bad idea.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 17th, '11, 08:39

Well that makes all the sense in the world.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 23rd, '11, 08:21

Ran the boat 3 times this weekend. It is becoming apparent that the starboard motor is going to need to be rebuilt sooner rather then later. I'm progressively needing more throttle to keep up with the rebuilt port motor and I'm producing a good amount of smoke. Not going to bother with any stop gaps I knew going in this was going to need to be done.

I spoke to the yard this morning and will be bringing the boat over after memorial day weekend, they're still busy getting boats in the water. Turn around should be 2-3 weeks.

I don't want to do any damage to the block or hold off another month and end up losing the boat in July and august. The good news is I should be in good shape for that long run to Greenport in august. I've also been saving some shillings for an inflatable with motor and having the seat base for the bridge done. I will have to redirect my use of funds.

Even better news we had my son Carter (22 months old) on his first boat ride this weekend and he had a blast, my wife felt confident and safe. Lost a little sleep thinking about pulling the plug a week before memorial day but this is essential, obviously.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » May 23rd, '11, 09:48

Peter:

The all important question of the day -- what color smoke?

Tom

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 23rd, '11, 10:07

I don't think it's steam. Seems to be greyish blue. temp and oil pressure are ok.

The history is the port motor was rebuilt and the gas tank was replaced in September of 2010 just before I bought it. 1985 454s with 2700 hours The starboard motor seemed ok but it was a matter of when not if it also would need to be rebuilt. I was hoping to hold off until the winter and get a season out of it but at this point, I don't see that as an option. It's gotten progressively worse.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » May 23rd, '11, 10:37

Pete, before you jump to a rebuild, check a few obvious things that could make the motor labor & smoke....such as a rope in the prop, an air cleaner clogged up, the choke stuck halfway closed, carb jets messed up, vacuum line broken or off a nipple.......motors seldom progress from okay to crappy that fast without stuff hanging out of the block....

UV

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 23rd, '11, 11:09

Now that I've got my calders manual I think I can take a closer look after some reading and see what's up. Thanks for the ideas.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » May 23rd, '11, 11:28

If you eliminate what UV says, have a mechanic come by and check it out---probably do a compression test and leakdown. That'll tell you alot. Did you have pre-purchase engine surveys? If you did, what were the numbers?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 23rd, '11, 12:04

I did not have compression tests done on my pre purchase survey.

I went in knowing the port was just rebuilt and the starboard motor would need to be done. The surveyor commented in his report that the starboard motor would need to be rebuilt or replaced in the near future. The mechanic who did the rebuild is also the guy I am using now, came highly recommended by some other friends as well. He and the prior owner all were up front about this. When I did the deal I realized that was part of it. We were keeping our fingers crossed that I'd get a season out of it. Guess I should have crossed my toes too.

I spoke to the mechanic a little while ago and while he will check it out to see if there are some more minor issues I am just going to plan on getting this done.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 23rd, '11, 20:47

Peter

Are you using oil or are you getting water in the oil. If you pull the dipstick and see foam you have water in the oil. If she is smoking oil you should be burning oil.

I would check the compression before I rebuild. Could also be valve stem seals. Just check. A valve job is cheaper than a rebuild, and faster.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 24th, '11, 12:37

Definitely don't have water in the oil and if I am burning oil it is not enough to notice trip to trip. It seems to me that whatever sludge built up in the engine from the ethanol and fiberglass tank is now loosening up and burning off. Total guess on my part.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » May 24th, '11, 13:02

Peter-

I'd take a look at some other stuff like UV said before resolving to a rebuild. You're motors ran up to rpm recently and you had good numbers, you don't describe anything catastrophic, and they're burning little if any oil. My 454s were old (1978s) and had been run along time. They wouldn't reach max rpm anymore--but they still ran and ran for years and are still running, and burned just a little oil. 454s will run for alot of hours/years when "tired" in an application like ours. Not the best position, but better then popping for a mid-season rebuild. And the whole "rebuild" thing--another huge can of worms. My 2 cents.

John

captbone · Post by **captbone** » May 24th, '11, 17:42

Ensure that your mechanic does a leak down test instead of a compression test. A leak down is much more comprehensive and gives a better indication of the overall condition of the engine.

Just my 2 cents.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 24th, '11, 21:29

Peter

You mentioned ethanol and the engines in the same sentence. If you still have the old fiberglass tank, rebuilding will not help you out. It is the glass dissolving and mucking up the engine.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 25th, '11, 05:50

Tony,

Tank is brand new, sept 2010

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 25th, '11, 21:34

Peter

Made me nervous. I had another thought. If you loose RPMS on the one engine, are you sure you don't have throttle creep? Maybe it is backing off a little asyou are running.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 26th, '11, 07:41

Tony,

I am not losing RPMs but I have to give the motor more throttle to keep up with the other motor. It's not so significant at slower speeds but when I get up over 2500 rpms it is apparent. If the port throttle is at noon to get 2800 the starboard throttle needs to be at 2.

Was down at the boat this morning and the motor turns right over nice and while in neutral I can give it throttle easily. The issue seems to be when the boat is in gear and the motors have a load on them. It is worth noting that the motor runs smooth at all rpms just needs more throttle.

When I bring the boat over I am going to have the mechanic take a closer look and see if there isn't something else going on before jumping into the rebuild.

randall · Post by **randall** » May 26th, '11, 08:19

at this point in the season i would just run er if she runs. of course i ran a whole season with no reverse on one engine.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » May 26th, '11, 08:23

could it be your linkage cable got out of wack some how??

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 26th, '11, 08:35

Charlie

Something like that would seem plausible if I didn't have the smoke issue.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 26th, '11, 08:57

If she's smoking at that point, something is (or isn't) happening. Before going for the expense of a rebuild, a checkup of the things mentioned makes good sense. I would probably switch carburetors with the other engine to see if the problem doesn't switch sides. Usually, not a difficult thing to do. Good luck!

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 26th, '11, 09:22

They could in fact be two separate issues. I am planning on bring the boat over to the yard after memorial day and I now plan on having everything checked before just jumping into a rebuild.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » May 26th, '11, 09:45

And always remember one of the advantages of having twin engines is to compare the performance of one to the other. And always remember one of the disadvantages of having twin engines is comparing the performance of one to the other....two engines in the same boat will never perform exactly the same, never. One will always run a little "better" - cooler, smoother, less smoke, etc. - than the other. The rule of thumb on Cummins diesels for example, is 5% variance from nominal specs is normal. I have one engine that turns 260 RPM wide open and the other just over 2600. I could get them both to run the same 2650 but it would cost a bunch and accomplish next to nothing.

Not saying you don't have a problem, but we can chase our tails comparing one engine to the other. Just check out the simple things that could casue your symptoms and eliminate them first.

UV

Dug · Post by **Dug** » May 26th, '11, 11:41

Peter,

Check compression, and leak down as said before. Do this before you assume you need a rebuild.

Having been through a rebuild scenario in the past, that is key.

Then, also having been through a rebuild scenario gone wrong, you should avoid that at all costs!!!

Good luck!

Dug

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 26th, '11, 22:58

Peter

Before the repower and the new cables, mine used to be at like 12 and a little more than 1. With any luck it is a cable adjustment. But if you can push them to the wall and hit the top end on both of them, I would not get crazy about it.

The smoke is another issue.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 27th, '11, 06:45

captbone wrote:Ensure that your mechanic does a leak down test instead of a compression test. A leak down is much more comprehensive and gives a better indication of the overall condition of the engine.

Just my 2 cents.

Its more than just 2 cents, its absolutly correct.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 27th, '11, 07:49

Enough said that will surely be the first thing we do.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » May 27th, '11, 16:56

I have seen countless engines that are rebuilt simply because of the lack of experience of the tech. A good tech with a leak down gauge and a keen ear can tell you the condition of your valves (exhaust and intake) and the rings simply by where the air leak is (intake, crankcase, exhaust).

I am very skeptical when people say it was rebuilt or needs to be rebuilt. On Long Island most rebuilts consist of a can of spray paint. A good machine shop is worth its weight in gold.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 28th, '11, 08:19

Pete- I saw your 31B neighbor One Step Closer heading out for a day of howdy boating (about 12 people on board- cross post to 31B Capacity thread please) as my wife and I made our Saturday morning trip to Starbucks this morning.

East Wind looks pretty there, are you guys heading out this weekend?

Sorry- corrected misspelled name. Although Eat Wind might get some play in certain circles....

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 28th, '11, 14:03

I met the owners of the other B31 during the week. A very nice couple, he's doing plenty of work on that boat. He's a diesel mechanic by trade. They have an 8 month old daughter, which was good because the women were able to chat about good places to change diapers and safe place for naps out on the water.

We are headed out tomorrow, just got a few minutes of down time. Family BBQ at my house today. The wifes Bday is tomorrow! Been running around all day getting prepared. Taking the B31 over to sailors haven or Barrett tomorrow. Doing my own thing on the flats boat Monday.

There is also a very well kept fortier 26 in the argyle basin, worth checking out too.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 28th, '11, 14:21

Very nice Fortier indeed. You pass my folks house on your way out. They are the 32 Blackfin on a lift in the west side of the river.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 28th, '11, 20:29

That is a beautiful boat. Looks really well taken care of.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 28th, '11, 21:59

PeterPalmieri wrote:That is a beautiful boat. Looks really well taken care of.

She is so well taken care of it is a little scary. I noticed today the name on the transom needs a little touch up though. Jim Ray has spent a lot of hours keeping that boat up and the machinery, well the machinery is still golden.

I tried to convince him to replace the 3208s with Yanmars when he had Carl build his 31 Bahia. But the diesel mechanic, who also would have done the refit, told him to save the money because those 3208 are the most well cared for engines he knows of and will be pushing that boat for another 10 years.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 28th, '11, 22:03

A Fortier 26 with twin diesels? I've only seen single engined Fortiers.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 29th, '11, 06:06

Referring to the black fin not fortier.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 30th, '11, 06:16

John, I guess you are one of the three Js referred to on the name of the boat? Very nice boat.

Interesting the starboard motor ran much better yesterday, ran from Babylon spent the day at sailors haven. This year they are offering dockage by the hour $10 per hour for a max of 3 hours then you have to pay for the full day $2 per foot plus electric.

As far as the boat goes the starboard motor was running much better, didn't need the big increase in throttle, still some smoke but not as bad as last time. New issue the port motor stalled out at idle speed a number of times while pulling in and out of the slip both here and at sailors. It made for an interesting docking experience.

Will still be keeping my appointment next week to bring the boat in to be checked out hopefully we will run it next weekend as well and get a better sense of what's going on.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 30th, '11, 07:19

PeterPalmieri wrote:
New issue the port motor stalled out at idle speed a number of times while pulling in and out of the slip both here and at sailors. It made for an interesting docking experience.

Yowza, interesting is quite an understatement.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » May 30th, '11, 08:59

Peter,
Haven't stuck my nose in until now as I think the guys have you covered. However, I never miss a chance when presented. Walter suggested swapping carburetors to see any difference. Have you tried that? I realize one engine is rebuilt and the other not, but if things change, like the smoke moves to the other engine it could be as simple as a carb rebuild. Damn site cheaper than an engine. On the stalling of late, what kind of fuel filters are you running and have they been changed recently? Regardless of where I buy fuel I don't trust any of them. Cleaned the float bowls in the carbs? One little piece of s#*t in the bowl or jets and . . .
Stall.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 30th, '11, 09:45

It does sound like it could be a fuel problem, water or gunk clean out may help a lot.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 30th, '11, 11:53

Seems like we are all tossing around opinions...

I'd do the Compression and Leakdown tests first. Cheaper then a rebuild or new motor.

2010 the tank was changed...so engine did have ethanol run threw it, correct?

Lose of RPM, requireing a whole lot more throttle and stalling where the symptoms of the ethanol crap gumming up my motors. It progressively got worse...but your running a fresh tank so maybe the crap is burning and chipping away...or loosening up from the heat...

At the very least, pull the carb it could tell you somethings. First when you pull look at intake and underside of Carb. The ethanol resin mixture would have coated the intake and underside of Carb with what looks like Black Carbon buildup, but gummy tar like. If you see that its a good indication you have Ethanol to blame. I found a couple ways to work it out...namely Amsoil Foam cleaner. Shoot it into the carb at a low rpm till it stalls...wait a few minutes then crank it up...black smoke, stinky stank and I was off and running till I shut her down. At shut down I did the same thing...but didn't start. Had to continue to do that for awhile after I replaced my tank. Otherwise it would lock up the motor. Eventually it passed and rpms came back.

If no Black tar deposits...
Then I'd swap the carbs and see if issues follow. If they do, have carb cleaned and/or rebuilt. A few drops of water could give you those symptoms too...although the blue smoke tells me otherwise, black would be better.

another .02

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 31st, '11, 08:53

Since the starboard motor seems to be running pretty good again, I can only guess some of the ethanol build up is burning out. Clogged up the fuel system and creating smoke. Seems it has now burned off. I'd also guess this problem may occur again.

As for my idling issue with the port motor, I've got 15 hours or so since the motor was rebuilt. It should be a quick diagnosis and fix from the mechanic. I drained the raycor a bit slight sediment in it but otherwise no water. There is a date written on them of 2008. My guess is the grottos cable needs an adjustment as I have to give a bit of throttle to sustain 800 rpms when I pull it all the way back it drops below 500 and sputters out if I don't give it a bit of throttle.

Again will run it this coming weekend and if the problem persists, which I think it will I'll drop it off for a quick check.

Overall I feel much better about the starboard motor, and may do the leak down test while it's at the yard.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 31st, '11, 09:08

Peter- If you take the 2 screws off the top of the throttles Morse control cover, you can lift it off. Take a look as there may be a set screw on each side which will allow you to adjust how far the lever comes back. If so, an rpm at idle adjustment is just a matter of a few turns, probably best done when the engines are warmed up. If not, the next place to make a simple rpm adjustment is on the carburetor arm where the cable connects to the carb. There should be a set screw there. a half turn either way while the engine is idling should tell you if it's the set screw you want. Good luck. Sounds like those engines might be fine.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 31st, '11, 09:30

Now that is something I can handle. Thanks.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » May 31st, '11, 09:34

Peter,
Is it my understanding that the Racors haven't had their filters changed since 2008? Change annually. Too much crud in life to accumulate otherwise.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 31st, '11, 10:09

I can only guess that is the case. I will call the mechanic he has a longer history on the boat then I do.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » May 31st, '11, 13:53

pet
i change my racors when i change the oil every 100 hrs, when i had my 454 crusaders i changed them out every 50 hrs with oil change

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 31st, '11, 14:49

Checked my bill and checked with the mechanic the racors were changed in the fall. The marker on the hosing is old, from the previous owner.

He will check the carburetor and throttle Cable on the port motor this week for me.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » May 31st, '11, 15:28

PeterPalmieri wrote:Since the starboard motor seems to be running pretty good again, I can only guess some of the ethanol build up is burning out.

As much as I hate to use absolutes, I have to think.......Not a Chance. You can't burn this stuff off with a blow torch.

randall · Post by **randall** » May 31st, '11, 20:24

i ran my boat half of one summer with a port engine that wouldn't idle. i got very good at docking on one engine. needless to say i had the carb rebuilt and spent countless hours screwing around and swapping parts from engine to engine......the culprit turned out to be some abrasion on one of the ignition wires that shorted out that cylinder. a little electric tape and presto....nice idle. it was better than the summer i ran with no reverse on one engine. the half a season with no steering had its moments too.

BTW...once clear of the slip i'd start the engine in gear.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 31st, '11, 21:37

Peter

The low idle is probably more a carb issue than cable issue. This is a good one for you to do your self. Try tuning up both engines and learn to adjust the carbs. Not hard. If you had a full electronic set up I would tell you call a mechanic.

In realty it is so easy you will kick yourself for having the mechanic do it. It also will also start to give you confidence to troubleshoot if you get stuck while out with the family.

If you can get someone to watch you do it and guide you it will be worth it. When the mechanic comes over to work on the engines ask him what the gap on the spark plugs should be and where to set the timing. The big block GM's, if I remember right is 4 degrees before top dead center. Someone here will correct me if I am wrong.

Affter you have those two pieces the rest is just labor, patience and time. Figure for the first time out a full day. After that a few hours of time. Toughest thing I always found was pulling the plugs on the outboard side of the engines. Not real hard just have to lay across the engine a little bit.

Now changing the dam fuel and water pump on the outboard side is an act. Need to kind of lay across the engine, hang upside down and well you get the idea.

bertram31.com

East Wind - Spring 2011

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