Americas Cup anyone?

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Sep 11th, '13, 04:06

My family and I have been watching with great interest,we have several friends up there involved in the cup and its been great to watch, Infact its been better than I thought it was going to be,in that,the racing has been closer than I gave it credit for being, at times I`ve had my heart in my mouth as these 10 million plus boats ,dual at 40knots only meters apart, UNTIL today when we kicked your ass!!!LOL Go the KIWIS I sure hope we win, for a small country like ours the spin off is massive, and the event is spectacular, its my hope they win it,and then change the formula to something that attracts a lot of entrants .We`ve seen that before and its just magic,it brings the whole country to life and the on water display is like nothing you've seen ,with thousands of boats out on the water in the most beautiful gulf in the world, have a look at it on google (Hauraki gulf maps or images Auckland New Zealand) and if we win I`ll be only to clad to take any of the faithful out to watch it , Oh and they always have the racing right at the height of the fishing season too,
Kiwi Todd

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 11th, '13, 07:08

I'd like to see them go back to wooden hulls.....

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Sep 11th, '13, 08:51

mike ohlstein wrote:I'd like to see them go back to wooden hulls.....

You're REALLY "old skool"...

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Sep 11th, '13, 09:49

Whew- What a ride this Cup has been. The boats don't float, they don't really have sails, and they go faster than the wind?
TNZ Looks like they have their boot on Oracle/USA's neck. I think Oracle has to sail 10 perfect races before TNZ can sail 5 pretty good ones. The rest of us race around making mistake after mistake and we give up a little here or a little there. With the 72s the penalty for almost any mistake is the race and a big mistake breaks the boat.
If you want to see the picture of a team under pressure just look at the Oracle guys with a lead, they're racing TNZ and their own fears right now.
Full credit to TNZ and no doubt them winning would be good for the Cup and great for NZ. But 2 outs and 2 strikes in the bottom of the 9th isn't a win and there's a lot of this contest yet to play..

Get it back right there boys...

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 11th, '13, 10:32

Speed without ear shattering deafening noise is kinda pointless. It throws the whole doppler effect off kilter.

Beside sailboat races remind me of Connecticut, Biff, Muffy and the gang sitting around talking about the hoi polloi.

Harry Woods · Post by **Harry Woods** » Sep 11th, '13, 12:10

The USATT Tuna Tournament was held out of Point Judith, RI in the late 60's and early 70's in early September. One year the event was held the week before the Americas Cup just across the harbor from Newport. The race trials and shakedown conflicted with approximately 150 serious boats fishing in the waters that the cup people thought was off limits to us. A New York Yacht Club member made a statement to the press that a bunch of "rag tag fisherman" were not going to obstruct their event. You never want to make a statement against fisherman in RI. We refused to move and the sailboat sightseers ran in and out of our chum slicks. Even the commercial guys, who had no love for the recreational fisherman, joined in to help our cause. The last day was poor visibility and more recreational sailboats were caught than tuna.
Harry

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Sep 11th, '13, 12:32

Bruce:

In the most polite way -- BITE ME.

Yo Fren,

Biff from Connecticut.

PS, I'm certain that Master Stowe, as a part time Connecticut resident, will have further comment. Once he finds his Grey Poupon and Jeeves is done polishing his MacBook Pro.

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Sep 11th, '13, 12:50

LMAO!!! Thanks Bruce!!!

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sep 11th, '13, 13:29

Come on Bruce, the video stopped before the sailboat scratched Dangerfield's anchor on the 70' Striker!

Stephen, I had the pleasure of spending a week in your hometown of Newport during the '83 series when Alan Bond won the Cup from the Americans for the first time in 132 years. They were still racing the 12-metre class mono-hulls at that time (approx. 65' LOA), and they were a thing of beauty. In my opinion it was the best thing to happen to the Americas Cup series because it made it truly an international event after Australia II with it's winged-keel came from behind to beat Dennis Conner's Liberty 4-3.

Kiwi Todd, I also had the opportunity to spend 7 weeks Downunder in Fremantle in '86/'87 when Conner took the Cup back with his Stars & Stripes win over Kookaburra. So Conner redeemed himself somewhat, only to ruin the sport (in my humble opinion) when his team fielded a catamaran against the Kiwis in the '88 event, which was a joke followed by multiple court battles; so much for the "gentleman's sport" image. Ever since Conner and the SDYC pulled that stunt I've pulled for the challenger to prevail; which is what I'm doing in this series. So if the Kiwi's win, I plan to take you up on your invitation!!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 11th, '13, 22:49

I`ve had my heart in my mouth as these 10 million plus boats ,dual at 40knots only meters apart, UNTIL today when we kicked your ass!!!LOL Go the KIWIS I sure hope we win

Watching this unfold it is clear that IF the Kiwi's win they will have earned it. Lots of practice, smooth teamwork and boat handling, good engineering, very few mistakes... that's the name of the Kiwi game.

But it' s not a runaway. It's a grind.... and though the USA is down, they are far from out.

Whatever happens it is a spectacle.
Personally I am amazed that the racing could get so tactical at 40+ knots.

Imagine running the highway at full speed in a truck as long as full-on 16 wheeler, You intend to cut across your opponenet at the next exit ramp but you only have inches to spare, and he will try to stop you. But you can't steer worth a shit without the guy in the passenger seat and some guy in the trailer and about 4 other guys in between working in perfect coordination with you..... somebody else has the brakes, and a different guy the throttel, and yet another guy the gear shift, and another has the clutch... and so on....like dancing with Ginger Rogers and and Fred Astaire....except it isn't the two of you, it is about 11 of you. Maybe more like like Cirque du Soliel. One guy misses a step by a half second and you are screwed.....You've got 10's of millions of bucks on the line. If the other truck is overlapped inside of you, you loose, if you clear him, you win.... You have to go for it.... one moment WOT, then the next hard on the brakes, wheel hard over, and the whole rig in a slide for the exit ramp and you hope your trailer clears the other guy.... and you don't tip over.... If you mis-judge everything goes up in a shower of carbon fiber! Talk about heart in your mouth!

I just have to say that I hope that if the Kiwis win they don't "dumb down" the boats for the next challenge in favor of cost cutting. This is far-out freaking cool! Even the sounds that the boats make as the foils literally scream like banshees as they fly down the course 3 times faster than the wind is awsome! And watching clearly thre is a LOT of improvement to be made that wasn't even dreamed of only 1 year ago.

Screw "Muffie and Biff." They haven't got the cajones to step up to this sort of racing! They had better head back to Belmont to watch the horses. The ponies are more their speed... and screw anyone who hasn't watched a race who says this isn't like watching Formula 1 or NASCAR on steroids. Watch one race and you will be mesmerized. If you aren't, you had better check your pulse!

The USA is in the hole for sure, but they are the ONLY team to take even a single race from the Kiwis so far, and the racing, aside form Tuesday, is wicked close. The USA boat might be a bit slower, but the skipper seems a bit craftier... against that the Kiwi team is a whole lot smoother. So USA's slick moves get negated by marginal boat speed and great consitency. It looks good for the Kiwis right now, but they are not going to just walk away with the trophy. They will have to continue to work hard to earn it. We got us a serious yacht ragatta!

BTW this crazy, expensive, soup of sailing and innovation and money is where Ray Hunt and Dick Bertram started....
Peter

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Sep 12th, '13, 05:24

I love it, you guys are as passionate as we are about this thing, I didn`t know how much general interest there was in the cup up there , I guess I thought its such a big country that it would not rate that highly as a sporting event, So does it get a lot of media coverage? or is it more a special interest thing?
Its great to read your feed back and thoughts, and yes I`d happily concede that its far from over, team USA certainly are a threat , very strong in the start box, as for dumbing it down, well, I think its a better event with a lot of challengers , I agree that the speed and tecno make for a spectacular formula ,but its no good if no one can afford to play!! Also the wing tech is awesome but it has very little application in the real world , its never going to make its way into main stream yachts because you cant just take it down, and if you don't it wants to generate power just sitting there, so yes awesome tech but most massive R&D needs a commercial spin to justify the on going development .on a selfish note the boats are to fast! We love going out and watching the start, then we all race down to the next mark and so on for the day, Its great fun, you get to see a lot of the race up close and its a real sight on a sunny day to have such a massive spectator fleet, But with these boats you cant keep up let alone get to the next mark before them
Dennis Conner!!! Its a funny thing, but I think that Dennis is actually pretty well liked down here, I think most Kiwis Loved to hate him, and were sad to see him gone, the kiwis that I know,who did work for him spoke very highly of him, as for high hijinks ,court cases, etc etc, well that's the Americas cup, kinda wouldn`t be the same with out it, I mean its a bit of a pissing contest for rich and famous anyway and we through our ten cents in just to be the underdogs and stir things up and in the nicest possible(ie smugly) way try to beat them at there own game , its almost a sport within the sport .You gotta love it! I`d be lying if I didn't say that there is a real David and Goliath sentiment here in NZ ,a real sense of pride that Little old us is sticking it to one of the worlds billionaires
well of to bed for me and up early to watch the race,Go the kiwis

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '13, 06:42

Todd Pearce wrote:I love it, you guys are as passionate as we are about this thing, I didn`t know how much general interest there was in the cup up there , I guess I thought its such a big country that it would not rate that highly as a sporting event, So does it get a lot of media coverage? or is it more a special interest thing?

We watch it all the time at my house.
...usually when bored of watching the reruns of Pawn Stars, Storage Wars and Wicked Tuna.

No, it's not highly watched in my circles....but when I do catch a bit of this racing (normally done by casual flipping thru channels) I have to say its not your normal Wednesday Evening Yacht Club Regatta...not by a long shot. Boats and the skills to handle them are nothing short of pure amazing.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '13, 06:53

Peter wrote:

Yes, we all make mistakes. I do not hold that against them.
What is important is they learned from their mistakes and moved on.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 12th, '13, 09:32

As a once avid sailboat racer, both around the buoys and offshore (Newport, RI, and Marion, MA, to Bermuda, and Marblehead, MA, to Halifax, Nova Scotia, I once had an intense interest in America's Cup racing, but over time that waned.

Today the races are fought not just on the water, in boats pretty much identical, but in courtrooms, materials laboratories, and rule bending design offices.

Yes.. some of the developments in design and materials eventually trickle down to the average boater, but to me the whole event has become a game of who has the biggest checkbook and who has the best attorneys.

The original rules of the America's Cup required that the challenger's boat had to be sailed from the challenger's country to the the cup holder's country, on it's own bottom. A lot has changed, sadly.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Sep 12th, '13, 09:52

Yes, we all make mistakes. I do not hold that against them.
What is important is they learned from their mistakes and moved on.

Yep, Dick knew he never wanted to be a boat builder and sold the company and, um, Ray was, uh, excused from competition very early on in the defender trials.... twice...

Bruce- Is this what you had in mind?

Watching the America's Cup Race. Mrs. Kennedy, President Kennedy, others. Off Newport, RI, aboard the USS Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr.
Hey, we all had to do something back when September meant the Red Sox would collapse and the Patriots sucked...

GO Team Orace/USA!!!!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '13, 12:39

LOL...It's all good.

For me it seems just about every Professional Sport is about the checkbook and I lose interest for that reason...at least interest in rooting for the home team. The advantage goes to the team that can spend the most on the best players, equipment, coaches, trainers etc etc. Does that mean the underdog will not win...of course not...but non the less, the teams and athletes with the with bigger purse strings do have an advantage.

Flip side..I can still marvel at the excellence achieved.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 12th, '13, 15:14

Stephan,

Ahh America's royalty that gave us womanizers, liars, cheats, drunks I mean alcoholics they were too rich to be drunks, drug addicts, and general scum bags.

So nice to see the president and first lady enjoying such closeness despite him boinking every skirt he could get his hands on.

Bulls, bears, high finance, inbreeding. Yep that be it.

randall · Post by **randall** » Sep 13th, '13, 08:26

its always the same. when i was a powder skier most of my friends hated the bump skiers....then they all hated the snowboarders. in surfing the short boarders hated the long boarders (of course after the beginning when everyone was a longboarder) . now the prone surfers hate the stand up surfers..............and then we have sailors and power boaters. which is worse? a beautiful sailboat as sea worthy a vessel as there is or a bubble boat?

i never got it........i like to do everything i mentioned. some of the most memorable ocean adventures of my life involved sailboats.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Sep 13th, '13, 09:43

I'm with Randall, but I would really like to see the older style 12 meter boats again. The new boats go fast and are fun to watch butIi'll take the boats that actually ride the waves.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 13th, '13, 10:15

**
Fishermen, you don’t need to read this. It is for sailors and boat designers, but it seems appropriate here on this thread.
**

Of Clipper Ships, Bertrams, and Flying Cats:

Watching the AC unfold with the flying cats it is now apparent to everyone that as the Oracle boat tacks or tries to accelerate at any time anywhere on the course, the leeward bow just digs in and heads for Davy Jones’s locker like Capt Nemo’s Nautilus. Black water rushes over the entire hull all the way up to the tramp and the boat can’t accelerate until the hull pops up and extricates itself from this watery death grip.

This is Oracle’s fatal flaw. The Kiwi boat has rounder, fuller, more buoyant sections forward, so although it tries to do the same thing, it doesn’t do it as badly, and perhaps the Kiwis also handle the boat a bit better so as to prevent it from happening in the extreme.

What is going on is the wing is 120 feet above the deck, so the center of effort is somewhere about 60 feet above the deck. This is a huge lever and as the wing powers up it creates a force vector both sideways and forward. In other words you have a giant force acting on a hugely long lever trying like the Dickens to push the lee bow under, and this is exactly what happens.

It is a bit like stomping on the accelerator in an empty pick up truck from a dead stop. If you do that all you do is spin your tires; but if you are easy on the gas for the first moment or so, until you get moving, and then you stomp on the gas, you shoot forward. The wing trimmer on the AC cats has control of the “accelerator pedal” and he alone has this capability to ease on the power at his disposal, not the driver. BUT they must work together. If the driver turns to fast or too far the trimmer can’t fix that. And if the trimmer doesn’t get on the gas at the right moment the driver can’t get the boat going. It is a game of precision and perfect timing between the two… and the grinders as well.

Interestingly this is not the first time this pitch-pole problem has vexed sail boat designers, so I rather surprised that these guys got caught in this very old trap.

Back when clipper ships were the new thing they were intended to be the “Fed Ex” of their day. They prized speed over cargo capacity, and to obtain the speed they wanted they elected for enormous clouds of canvas on ridiculously high masts driving radically skinny hulls.

The “old timers” back then pointed out that the press of so much excess canvas on such a overly-tall rig was likely to drive the bow under when the vessel encountered a big wave. They predicted that the hull would slow suddenly and the wind pressure on the sails and the momentum of the weight of the rig itself high above the decks would cause the masts to come crashing down forward, not to mention that the water rushing over the decks as the bow was pressed deeper and deeper would sluice down the hatches and was sure to cause the vessel to founder.

The problem was solved ingeniously and elegantly with what we now call a “classic clipper bow” where the cutwater is well aft of the reverse curve of the stem, and the hull sweeps gracefully up from the water line and forward to the bow sprit. The as the bow encountered a wave the hull not only gained huge buoyancy forward, but also that buoyancy was even further forward so that it had greater leverage to counter act the pitch-pole tendencies of the driving forces of the rig. Obviously this worked pretty well as they made a lot of clipper ships and they dominated long distance commerce well into the early days of steam.

C. Ray Hunt also encountered the stuff-the-bow problem when he was a younger man. As a lobsterman in WWII out of Cohasset MA he wanted to get further offshore. So he designed a workboat himself to suit his needs and called it a “Huntform.” Read about it here:

http://www.maineboats.com/ray-hunt-yacht-designer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(NOTE; there is a typo in there that inserts something about a Concordia with a full spinnaker, ignore that. That belongs somewhere else)

“The Huntforms were predecessors of the deep-vee in that they had round bottom sections—a convex curve along the bottom that flared up and out in concave curves like the lips of a bell at the chine lines.”

We are talking about the section lines here. Anyone with a Bertram recognizes the description of the wide flare at the deck near the bow which has the effect of adding lots of reserve buoyancy when you stuff it into a wave.

Anyone who ever stuffed a Bertram into a wave, and most of us have, know the look and feel of how the bow cuts into the wave but at the same time the deck flare sends showers of spray outward for a dozens yards or more and keeps the deck itself above water, though often much covered in spray. It is dramatic looking, but it is also very effective and not as violent as it appears. It is one of the many reasons Bertram owners can head out without a second thought into sea conditions that leave other boats tied to the dock.

The AC cats shouldn’t have wave piercing bows! I don’t know how that came to be so di-rigueur in catamaran design. Anyone who ever sailed a Hobie 14 or 16 as a kid in the ‘70’s knows that just as you really get going the lee bow buries and you pitch pole in a tumbling capsized mess. The 14’s are even retro-fitted with bow planes to lessen the effect!

So what genius though that making the hull act like a submarine was going to be fast?

But they all did it, so I guess they had their reasons. I suppose it looks pretty cool or something. But it isn’t hard to imagine that going through the water has got to be slower than skimming atop it. Run a foot race along the beach: You run in waist deep water, and your opponent runs in the wash, sometimes dry, and sometimes in ankle deep water. Who will win?

At any rate, IMHO the correct design solution to this problem for the flying cats, and one I suspect we will see very soon, is something like a clipper bow with a Bertram-style flare at the decks forward. And it won’t take a genius to figure it out, just the willingness to take a little break from what is considered “conventional” by 2013 standards.

Here is a fun exercise: It is often said “If it looks right it probably is right.” when discussing boat and airplane design. So sketch yourself a catamaran design on a napkin, and give it a clipper bow. I think you’ll agree it “ just looks right” especially when you think about the reasons for choosing it.

Peter

PS: Point of clarification here: it is an odd turn of phrase when it is said the Ray Hunt was “excused” twice form the AC defender selection process. He was not ejected from the competition for misconduct (at least not as far as I know). Instead his team “Easterner” from Easter yacht Club in Marblehead MA, failed to “win” the defender’s slot on two separate defense bids.

The reason they do not say “win” or “loose” in this case is because the winner of the most races is not necessarily the boat selected to defend. It is not an elimination series; it is a selection process.

The committee can select any one of the teams vying to defend the cup that they like, even one that lost every single race in the selection process, if they think that is their best choice. So you don’t get “eliminated,” you don’t get “knocked out,” you get “dismissed.” At least that is how it has gone so far. The defending club can do it any way they choose, but in the end they have to select just one team to go up against one challenger.

Also in order to get a lot of practice racing in, something Oracle didn’t get this go, the defending yacht club will encourage a lot of boats to come sail in the selection process which are very unlikely to be selected. They are the pace horses and training coaches. Generally no one expects one of the last defense’s eliminated boats to be selected for the next defense, but they still come and participate as a training aid to the top teams

“Intrepid” very nearly upset this process. She defended the actual cup twice and came back as a training horse for a third defense for the new 12 meter “Courageous.” “Interpid” actually beat “Courageous” in the final selection series, but the committee selected “Courageous” to defend anyway sighting a rocky start to the series with the new boat as their justification. “Courageous” defended successfully.

The challengers DO have an elimination series. To challenge for the cup itself you have to win against all other challengers in a pre-determined series of races. So as a challenger either you do get “eliminated,” or you make it to the final event. You don’t get “dismissed.”

randall · Post by **randall** » Sep 13th, '13, 14:37

peter...i've pitch poled a hobie cat. please never mention it if my wife caren is around. it's amazing how high and far you can be catapulted off one of those things. getting it back upright ain't so easy either. interesting thoughts there.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Sep 13th, '13, 15:20

I've been sorta lured in by Tom's reference to me.

I'm 100% with Bruce on this one.

I have no use for the America's cup. I love watching the old 12 meters sail, they are beautiful, but in general I have no interest in sailing, and would rather enjoy being there, instead of getting there.

CT and MA heritage don't do much for me. I have raced, found it fun, but just would rather be on a power boat. Period.

Dug

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 13th, '13, 17:14

Of Clipper Ships, Bertrams, and Flying Cats

Hey. I'm down with the flying cats....

Lets not forget the fav...

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Sep 16th, '13, 04:00

speaking or cats, I just about had kittens on sunday!! Holy shit that was close, I thought we were gone for all money,It just looked to far to come back from, my wife wont watch anymore, both races shes watched weve lost, This mornings race sure told the story, Team Usa are on the come back and that boat is fast, Talking team usa, How many of the boat crew are American?? ,I know that a crew of 14 boat builders were rushed up there last week from New Zealand to help with the rejig of the usa boat, I have to confess it will be a bitter pill if we loose to a boat made better by our own people!! roll on Wednesday, I`am hoping for lighter winds,I think these strong winds have both boats fully powered up and pretty even, light winds could be different

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 16th, '13, 07:52

Did they actually postpone a sailboat race because it was too windy?

Sort of like postponing a ski race because the hill is too steep.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 16th, '13, 08:56

Mike wrote:

Did they actually postpone a sailboat race because it was too windy?

Sort of like postponing a ski race because the hill is too steep.

They have already experienced one tragic death of a crewman in this competition in a capsize. The wind limit rules were agreed to after that by all teams for general safety. Maybe they agreed to a slightly too-low limit in thier immediate reaction, but that is the purpose.

So it is more like postponing the Men's downhill because the course has become dangerously icy, and they already had one tragedy.

I happen to agree that it seems odd to postpone a sailboat race because of too much wind. They also have limits on too little wind, which IMHO is even stranger. Sailing in tough conditions, light air or heavy, is(or always was) part of sailing. But this is a sort of sailing the likes of which mankind has never seen before. New kind of boats, new kind of rules, and a new kind of race management.

For guys who never raced in sailboats it may seem strange that they have a wind limit. For guys who have raced sailboats there is a whole lot more than wind limits that seems unfamiliar and odd, from the way the course is laid out to the way the start-signal flags are displayed and lots lots more. The remarkable thing is that despite the changes the tactical basics are all familiar and exciting to watch since the result of a tatical decision plays out in less than a minute, not over a half hour or more.

I was not a fan of the fast cats at first because I thougth the tactical part of the races would go by the wayside and it would become a drag race. I couldn't have been more wrong. The tactics are intense and critical, and as mentioned, the results of a good or bad decision are evident in moments, not slowly developed over the course of a half hour or so.

My only complaint is that the commentators (In the USA at least) do a piss poor job of explaining the tactics to any lay people watching. They dumb it all down so much it all just seems, well,... dumb.... instead of the high speed game of think-three-moves ahead-chess that is actually going on.

Peter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 16th, '13, 10:35

Our announcers go from explaining nothing to an in depth explanation. Neither satisfy.

However, I could watch and listen to an in depth explanation with visuals all day...same for most car racing...I'd almost prefer to see what makes the cars do what they do then actually seeing them do it...especially Nascar.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Sep 16th, '13, 15:05

mike ohlstein wrote:Sort of like postponing a ski race because the hill is too steep.

More like postponing a ski race because of poor visibility... And that has happened... I also know that sailing events get postponed due to weather... Whether that includes the America's Cup is something I don't know...

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 17th, '13, 23:31

Navatech wrote: More like postponing a ski race because of poor visibility... And that has happened... I also know that sailing events get postponed due to weather... Whether that includes the America's Cup is something I don't know...

Not so much, I think. There's fog on the water, in the air, and the racetrack too, and I can see how you might stop a race because the competitors can't see. But too much wind? How about using less sail? I used to race motorcycles. When it rained, we used rain tires and WE WENT SLOWER. The lesson being that 'in order to finish first, you first must finish'. OK, I get it.... Someone got killed. People get killed in racing sports all the time. Those of us who have been involved in racing know, understand, and accept the risks. To me, stoping a sailboat race because it's too windy is about as NASCAR as you can get......

Todd Pearce · Post by **Todd Pearce** » Sep 21st, '13, 05:26

Time out!!!!!!! holy shit that sux, I`am getting scared, That USA boat is getting faster and faster, our chance to bring it to nz is looking a little shaky, fingers crossed for tomorrow

randall · Post by **randall** » Sep 21st, '13, 07:30

they dont stop ski races because the course is to fast and hard ( sometimes they hose them down) they stop them because the are too slow......too much new snow. then they get the locals to help pack it down.

"to finish first ,first you have to finish" i read it in "the art of racing in the rain" . it might be a familiar racing slogan...i don't know, but the book is worth a read......great book.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 22nd, '13, 10:29

As for too much wind:

There was an iteresting thread picked up off Boat Design Net and pirated over to Sailing Anarchy, a site for which I have very little respect, that pointed out that in greater wind speeds the boats might approach speeds of 50 knots; the point where their foils would cavitate and the results of that are unknown. Most likely would destroy the foils at high speed and be a castastrophic failure of the foil with catastrophic resluts to the boat and crew.

I don't know if this is actually true or not.

My take is that these boats are sailing upwind at just under 30 knots boat speed now, wind over the deck is approaching 50 knots when true wind is 25. That's pretty extreme.

In either case the success of the sailors themselves to push the boats to speeds the designers never dreamed of 4 years ago is a big part of it all. If the giant cats are not abandoned as the vehicle of choice, I'm sure in 4 more years the present versions will look as outdated as a topsail schooner does next to a Volvo Ocean Racer.

I was more disappointed that the races had to be canceled because the wind was from the wrong direction yesterday. It is almost unhead of that a race committee can't adjust the course direction to the wind they''ve got.

Its a new kind of sailboat, and a new kind of sailboat race, but some things never seem to change: waiting for the wind, and bitching about the race committee and the pre-determined ratings, rules, and sailing instructions are all part of the game.

Recall, you fellows who tuned in for the races just lately, that this is only the tip of the iceberg. There have been years of negotiating, designing, prepration, and rules writing leading up to this point. Like it or not, that too is all part of the game. Changing rules out of convenience now is not possible. Every rule change has tactical and strategic implications.

Peter

randall · Post by **randall** » Sep 23rd, '13, 07:42

every sport has its politics......off shore fishing? you betcha.

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Sep 23rd, '13, 10:59

To add to Bruce's fine cat collection it's nice not to be at the mercy of the wind.

JimmyG · Post by **JimmyG** » Sep 23rd, '13, 11:58

Not a big blow boat fan but this video is pretty cool.....http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ca_1379764717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Sep 23rd, '13, 12:48

Thanks Jimmy! Did you see the guy get washed overboard at 3:15? That nose down dive they make coming off the foils is scary!

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 23rd, '13, 14:59

A guy gets washed overboard at 1:12. Neither boat stops to rescue him.

Yeah, who cares. Someone will pick him up.

I'm all done with this 'sport'.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 23rd, '13, 16:49

Eh...the pace boat will get the MOB...or run him over.

Come on now...these things are downright cool on the cutting edge of technology.

Just need a few pole holders, a pair of outriggers, the center rigger is there already, a fighting chair on the back and perfecto !

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 25th, '13, 07:39

Like the sport or not, running around a small slippery deck at 50 knots takes a pair of brass ones.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Sep 25th, '13, 09:10

I just read an article which noted that because Larry Ellison was the defender he could not only pick where the race would be held, he could also pick the exact boat design. From what I read, the boat is so complex and EXPENSIVE, that only 3 teams competed in total. Being that I am a Biff and Skippy (since according to Bruce that is what Connecticut residents are), I do remember the stone ages of the America's Cup back when they sailed off of Newport, RI, is sailboats that didn't look all that dissimilar to those in your local marina. What was remarkable was that there where usually a dozen or more teams competing for the right to race in the finals. With only three boats here, where is the competition?

Tom

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » Sep 25th, '13, 11:10

And here I thought you guys would be a little more sophisticated with the Ray Hunt and direct America's Cup tie in.

3 other teams competed for the right to challenge - New Zealand, Artemis Racing, and Luna Rossa. Oracle Racing is the defending team.

Yes, the defending team get's to choose the boat and the venue.

This could be one of the all time great sports comeback stories if they (the USA team made of primarily of non USA residents) pull it off.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Sep 25th, '13, 11:22

Oracle's turnaround is nothing short of amazing. NZ owned them upwind, was outsailing them from a handling perspective, winning the starts and now it is the complete opposite. Whatever happens this afternoon, what an epic battle.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Sep 25th, '13, 11:57

Bruce wrote: Hey. I'm down with the flying cats....

Lets not forget the fav...

If my ex-wife saw these pictures, she would have kittens !!! ....can you send them to her ?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 25th, '13, 13:06

Jeremy,
My level of sophistication amounts to this:

First time flying first class I turned to the stewardess and said, this is nice. Usually I ride on top of the train with a goat under each arm.

If my ex-wife saw these pictures, she would have kittens !!! ....can you send them to her ?

If she's your ex I'm sure she would appreciate it even more if it came from you.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Sep 25th, '13, 13:08

In the words of Keith Jackson, this one is - The Granddaddy of them all…
Don’t like this “sport”? No problem, think about the pressure on a team that represents a national identity. http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas- ... and/115015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It seems almost certain that ETNZ is an extraordinary team who has accomplished everything necessary to enter and win. In counterpoint, OTUSA accomplished all the conditions precedent but have done so in the context of an organization oriented to observe, develop, assess all within the time frame of the regatta. With the exception of a group of people at OTUSA I do not believe anybody appreciated that the size of the OTUSA organization was not a reflection of ego or excess but built to execute entire development cycles during each day of the racing.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - a team sponsored by Oracle and Red Bull is going to work late into the night crunching a staggering amount of data to extract a competitive advantage and then arrive at the start line awake and full of energy.

OK boys, lace ‘em up…

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Sep 25th, '13, 15:02

But what kind of a national identity does Oracle have? Not USA for the most part.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 25th, '13, 15:48

TailhookTom wrote:But what kind of a national identity does Oracle have? Not USA for the most part.

Professional Sports...hardly anybody has identity or loyalty, to me its all business under the guise of a sport.
How many Yankee are from NY...how many loyal Yankees wouldn't move to another team for the right price.
I said Yankee's but insert any team any player you want...hell even the teams themselves will move if a better deal is found...NY Giants or NJ Giants...who cares. Just a business to me.

At least here in sailing the backer (company) who puts the money up is up front about it...its the Oracle Boat, they are from the US...works for me.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sep 25th, '13, 19:29

Crazy, after being down 8 to 1 in a best of 17 series they (Oracle) came back and won the Cup.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 25th, '13, 19:59

In the the beginning of the finals the Kiwis outsailed the USA team. Plain and simple. Go back and look a the tapes on YouTube.

The USA boat wasn't slow, but it wasn't sailed as well.

Then in the end the USA team outsailed the Kiwis. Yes, there were improvements made along the way to the boat, but those were incremental. But the boat handling changes of Oracle were nothing short of extraordinary.

The irony is that the USA team couldn't have done it without the NZL guys showing them the way.

If you want to observe the difference watch as each boat jybes. The Oracle boat makes a question-mark wake as they turn up much higher, then gradually arch downwind. The NZL boat still makes straight lines and sharp angles. The former is how to generate and then carry your apparent wind. A similar situation is also true upwind, but harder to see because it is more subtle.

Frankly it is like a magic trick and sounds physically impossible. "Make your own wind" as you head up and go fast at first, but then sail in it as you change course. But it is not impossible and it is how ice boats are sailed. And apparentely now AC class boats too.

My admiration goes out to both teams, but particualrly to the Kiwis. Impressive and gutsy, they set the pace throughout years of development. In the end everyone including the USA team learned by following their examples. Given another week or two the ebb and flow of who had the edge at the moment could well have gone the other way. But such is the nature of all sport.

Thank you, New Zealand.

Peter

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Sep 25th, '13, 20:06

Wow what a turn around, Oracle wins when they replace their strategist with a Brit!