Well, good ole Cummins finally fell into the cesspool I figured was coming when they took over Mercruiser. Enter the new Zeus drive, a knock off (pun intended) on the Vulva forward facing inboard outdrive.....The Zeus has rear facing duo props so when it shears off the props will cut a nice big hole in the bottom. A great idea on a 6,000 hp tug boat, but in my view a really dumb idea on a small boat. The worst of all worlds. Look at their ad in your new SWS and see how they pitch it. I see Blubliners sinking to new lows already......
Hey Bruce, you going to school to learn how to work on these?
UV
Sell your Cummins stock, now
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In Memory of Vicroy
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I heard merc is going to be in the keys testing a new drive. that must be the one. Here is how the test will work. Two barges a short distance apart with a piece of concrete piling suspended below the water line between the barges. Let your imagination do the rest. I will try to get video of this one I am getting paid to watch this crap and do not have to fill out accident report. Sweet justice.
I am resisting with all my might in attending the new service schools on all the modern emission controlled and new design stuff.
The boating industry in terms of sales has been flat for quite a while. Last year they got together with an ad firm to push a national get into boating to introduce more people and try and sell more boats.
(They're timing was crappy of course as interest rates above 5% tend to slow down big ticket spending.
1 in 20 homes in Palm Beach County is in some type of foreclosure proceedings due to bullet loans and arm's the stupid morons who bought over their heads and then the housing boom went bust. That figure is supposed to climb dramaticaly in the comming months as more arms come into play which is really screwing our econmony down here.
They say next year should be better, but its gonna be a down right nasty election year and I don't see people taking the sunglasses off Ben and the boys till after the smoke clears which may be 09'.)
To do this, they need to make boating as easy as possible as boating is no longer a lifestyle or an activity that is tightly woven into ones life.
Boats are just another toy to use when your bored with all the other toys you have.
The amount of boats I'm seeing with bow and stern thrusters has increased 10 fold in last few years on new boaters boats cause they basicaly don't have a tinkers tit of a clue on how to dock a boat.
Even with these devices, most couldn't run a boat to save their lives.
Besides as an old dog, I have a hard time with new tricks and I don't know how much longer I want to keep doing this boat stuff.
The older clientel is dying off or too old to boat and the young and mobile ones replacing them make me want to climb a tower and start shooting.
A plus to these drives is it makes the engine installation that much easier and you don't need to vdrive to save room for a larger cabin and the typical alignment problems go away.
All plus's in the ability for a manufacturer to sell a boat.
The boating industry in terms of sales has been flat for quite a while. Last year they got together with an ad firm to push a national get into boating to introduce more people and try and sell more boats.
(They're timing was crappy of course as interest rates above 5% tend to slow down big ticket spending.
1 in 20 homes in Palm Beach County is in some type of foreclosure proceedings due to bullet loans and arm's the stupid morons who bought over their heads and then the housing boom went bust. That figure is supposed to climb dramaticaly in the comming months as more arms come into play which is really screwing our econmony down here.
They say next year should be better, but its gonna be a down right nasty election year and I don't see people taking the sunglasses off Ben and the boys till after the smoke clears which may be 09'.)
To do this, they need to make boating as easy as possible as boating is no longer a lifestyle or an activity that is tightly woven into ones life.
Boats are just another toy to use when your bored with all the other toys you have.
The amount of boats I'm seeing with bow and stern thrusters has increased 10 fold in last few years on new boaters boats cause they basicaly don't have a tinkers tit of a clue on how to dock a boat.
Even with these devices, most couldn't run a boat to save their lives.
Besides as an old dog, I have a hard time with new tricks and I don't know how much longer I want to keep doing this boat stuff.
The older clientel is dying off or too old to boat and the young and mobile ones replacing them make me want to climb a tower and start shooting.
A plus to these drives is it makes the engine installation that much easier and you don't need to vdrive to save room for a larger cabin and the typical alignment problems go away.
All plus's in the ability for a manufacturer to sell a boat.
Last edited by Bruce on Jan 23rd, '07, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.
It seems to make sense and is the natural progression in the manufacturing process. Now the hull goes down the line and you install the power pod. Fast and easy. Props face in the right direction for hitting things.. And the duo prop gig is proven in the outdrive market.
Hell if it wasn't for people trying new things we'd still be hoisting a sail, or starting our cars with a hand crank (watch those thumbs). I'm holding off my opinion for a little while.
Think I'll keep my Cummins stock.
Hell if it wasn't for people trying new things we'd still be hoisting a sail, or starting our cars with a hand crank (watch those thumbs). I'm holding off my opinion for a little while.
Think I'll keep my Cummins stock.
KR
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
As a member of the marketing community for over forty years I was once again amused. The boating industry has attempted to ease their problems by throwing money at them without doing the proper research. Their campaign made as much sense as Nancy Pelosi claiming the rising economy is a Republican trick to make the rich richer. Hey, Nancy, statistically you're one of those rich people. Sorry, bad metophor, had to take the shot.
The point is that it is not a simple solution that can be corrected with a few pretty and silly ads. There are some facets we are not able to address and some we are not willing to address. It's a fledgling effort which I hope the industry will continue to work on, but first they need smarter marketing and then . . . more money.
The point is that it is not a simple solution that can be corrected with a few pretty and silly ads. There are some facets we are not able to address and some we are not willing to address. It's a fledgling effort which I hope the industry will continue to work on, but first they need smarter marketing and then . . . more money.
Mikey
3/18/1963 - -31-327 factory hardtop express, the only one left.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
-Albert Einstein
3/18/1963 - -31-327 factory hardtop express, the only one left.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
-Albert Einstein
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Capt. Mike Holmes
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Marketing
But Mikey, as long as they spend the money, the boat magazines will print the ads, and find somebody to write a glowing "boat test" to go on the facing page!
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
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Terry Frank
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John Brownlee
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I haven't run the IPS system personally, but have spoken to a lot of people who have. Spencer had a new 43-foot express boat rigged with IPS drives at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show last October, and according to all reports, it ran like a scalded dog with very small engines. I think these things have lots of potential. Greatly increase efficiency due to decreased drag and perfectly horizontal, steerable thrust, less vibration and much lower noise levels. Also vastly improved maneuvering.
I recently wrote about Zeus which does things considerably different than IPS, and Kevin's right- they will be here in Islamorada the next two weeks deliberately running over concrete light poles in Florida Bay to tear them up. It will be interesting to see what happens.
I wouldn't write them off too quick, though. They could turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread.
I recently wrote about Zeus which does things considerably different than IPS, and Kevin's right- they will be here in Islamorada the next two weeks deliberately running over concrete light poles in Florida Bay to tear them up. It will be interesting to see what happens.
I wouldn't write them off too quick, though. They could turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread.
Well, John, how DARE you interject what appears to be objective observation into the discussion?!? LOL! I have run the IPS system on 2 different boats and may get a shot at running the Z next month. I look forward to it and am not threatened by it. BTW, dumping Cummins is a stupid idea even if Zues fell on its face. Check their fundamentals and how much CASH they're packing...
CMP
CMP
The marine industry hasn't been known for introducing new technology with a low rate of failure.
While the concept of the drive does lend itself to improvements in drive technology and installation of propulsion systems, no one can make a real determination either way of longevity until they are out in more mass and log many hours of use.
BTW, while I can't speak for UV, I think his comment about Cummins stock was tongue in cheek and I'm sure he dosen't feel threatened.
Besides the Cummins/Merc marriage hasn't exactly produced stellar results.
While the concept of the drive does lend itself to improvements in drive technology and installation of propulsion systems, no one can make a real determination either way of longevity until they are out in more mass and log many hours of use.
BTW, while I can't speak for UV, I think his comment about Cummins stock was tongue in cheek and I'm sure he dosen't feel threatened.
Besides the Cummins/Merc marriage hasn't exactly produced stellar results.
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In Memory of Vicroy
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Thanks, Bruce, of course my comment about the stock was just a metaphor. I think the world of Cummins Engine Co. I own a pair of their 6BTA 5.9 M 250 hp engines that were carefully made in late November, 1989, and they run like new to this day.
Now let's talk frankly about marine drive systems in mid size pleasure boats. The idea of having the motor inboard and the prop outboard was invented about 200 years ago, viz the paddlewheel. Some will argue it was invented with the oar, but let's just think modern. Then the "screw" or prop on a shaft. At some point the "Z" drive was invented, probably best known to us in the outboard motor.
The advantage of the Z drive is the line of thrust is parallel to the boat vs. at an angle, and in most cases it is steerable, eliminating the need for a rudder.
The hugedownside is that you have gears in a gearcase running in oil changing the direction of the thrust underwater. Those gears and their protective oil are only contained and thus protected by some rubber lip seals, and if the seals fail, the water gets in, the gears, bearings, shafts, etc are toast.
The curse of outboard motors and inboard/outboard drives are the lower unit seals and mono line in the props and other stuff that winds on the prop shaft and cuts the seals, letting the oil out and the water in. Not to mention an impact that cracks the gear case, same result.
Now for lo these many years the outboard motors and the I/O drives have dodged most of the impact bullet by having a "kick up" feature where the motor or drive swivels up after an impact, usually resulting in little or no damage.
The new fixed Z drives do not have that luxury, and an impact will shear them off. The new Zeus drive claims it will be in a tunnel to avoid this, and "just the skeg will shear off, minimizing damage". Now if the skeg shears off how you gonna fix that? The proof of the pudding will be to see the reaction of the bookies (insurance companies) over time to what is "damage" to a Z drive.
Anyway, I was the guina pig on the orginal Volvo duo-prop diesel outdrives in my old Bertram 25. In 1984 I installed a pair of AQAD30DP 110 hp turbo diesels in place of my original Mercruiser 165s, so I had i/o before. The I/O concept is totally flawed on a boat that stays in the water a lot. There is no way you can keep water out of the gears, just no way. You either have it on a lift of you will eat outdrives. I have seen nothing to indicate the new Z drives have better seal systems.
Now on the other hand, with a straight inboard installation, your engine and transmission is in the boat and all you have is a stainless shaft thru the bottom with a very reliable packing gland, and underwater all you have is a strut, a cutless bearing and a prop. Sure, you have to keep zincs on the underwater gear, but it is straightforward and easy to do, and cheap to boot.
The notiion that one would trade the reliability of the tried and true straight inboard for the glitz of being able to joystick a Bubble Boat with the Z drive and pay the piper of underwater gears does not meet this Coonasses' smell test.
The suggestion that it is easier to build a boat using the "modular" Z drive and that is somehow good seems to ring hollow here, where the Faithful nourish the Best Boats Ever Built, which were not built the easy way, but built to last 100 years or more.
Uncle Vic
PS - John, see if you can get them to run the Zues on a sand bar after the jump over the concrete piling, a more real-life test.
Now let's talk frankly about marine drive systems in mid size pleasure boats. The idea of having the motor inboard and the prop outboard was invented about 200 years ago, viz the paddlewheel. Some will argue it was invented with the oar, but let's just think modern. Then the "screw" or prop on a shaft. At some point the "Z" drive was invented, probably best known to us in the outboard motor.
The advantage of the Z drive is the line of thrust is parallel to the boat vs. at an angle, and in most cases it is steerable, eliminating the need for a rudder.
The hugedownside is that you have gears in a gearcase running in oil changing the direction of the thrust underwater. Those gears and their protective oil are only contained and thus protected by some rubber lip seals, and if the seals fail, the water gets in, the gears, bearings, shafts, etc are toast.
The curse of outboard motors and inboard/outboard drives are the lower unit seals and mono line in the props and other stuff that winds on the prop shaft and cuts the seals, letting the oil out and the water in. Not to mention an impact that cracks the gear case, same result.
Now for lo these many years the outboard motors and the I/O drives have dodged most of the impact bullet by having a "kick up" feature where the motor or drive swivels up after an impact, usually resulting in little or no damage.
The new fixed Z drives do not have that luxury, and an impact will shear them off. The new Zeus drive claims it will be in a tunnel to avoid this, and "just the skeg will shear off, minimizing damage". Now if the skeg shears off how you gonna fix that? The proof of the pudding will be to see the reaction of the bookies (insurance companies) over time to what is "damage" to a Z drive.
Anyway, I was the guina pig on the orginal Volvo duo-prop diesel outdrives in my old Bertram 25. In 1984 I installed a pair of AQAD30DP 110 hp turbo diesels in place of my original Mercruiser 165s, so I had i/o before. The I/O concept is totally flawed on a boat that stays in the water a lot. There is no way you can keep water out of the gears, just no way. You either have it on a lift of you will eat outdrives. I have seen nothing to indicate the new Z drives have better seal systems.
Now on the other hand, with a straight inboard installation, your engine and transmission is in the boat and all you have is a stainless shaft thru the bottom with a very reliable packing gland, and underwater all you have is a strut, a cutless bearing and a prop. Sure, you have to keep zincs on the underwater gear, but it is straightforward and easy to do, and cheap to boot.
The notiion that one would trade the reliability of the tried and true straight inboard for the glitz of being able to joystick a Bubble Boat with the Z drive and pay the piper of underwater gears does not meet this Coonasses' smell test.
The suggestion that it is easier to build a boat using the "modular" Z drive and that is somehow good seems to ring hollow here, where the Faithful nourish the Best Boats Ever Built, which were not built the easy way, but built to last 100 years or more.
Uncle Vic
PS - John, see if you can get them to run the Zues on a sand bar after the jump over the concrete piling, a more real-life test.
are you guys on the same page? cummins up$ 2.72 at $121.04 today anounced 1.5 millon cummins 6bta sold since 1988. at 10.35 am today the 2007 cummins was decrare the best of the best in all catogories the new 2007 has been increase to 6.7 cubic inch from the 5.9 with the same fuel economy!!!!!only engine to meet 2010 epa standards can burn bio-diesel,fuel oil,ave fuel,and you can piss in the tank and run on that mixture.in the marine version about 2db`s quieter than a 454 mercruiser and haft the polutants.the deal with mercruiser amounts to 1/10 of 1% dam near insurnificant.
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scot
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UV hit the nail on the head, Gears, seals, oil and water don't mix and never will. Now, if they could produce a system like the Zeus with sub-sea running gear that is raw water lubricated and cooled as are our beloved cutlass bearings they might actually have something. I'm not holding my breath.
The damage issue is another story. I've read many-a-story about 31's shoving their struts up through the hull...bottom line is that "if" you hit something hard, at speed in a boat that weighs 6 tons plus....your gonna tear up alotta sh$+. Cost of repair will be the issue.
The performance of a "NEW" Zeus system will more than likely be excellent, trilling, fast, blah, blah, blah....living with one will be another story. My guess is that they will be "free-for-the-takin" in boat bone yards in 10-15 years.
Bruce, I suggest you look into what it will take to convert the Zeus drive boats into conventional inboards, now there's an emerging market.
The damage issue is another story. I've read many-a-story about 31's shoving their struts up through the hull...bottom line is that "if" you hit something hard, at speed in a boat that weighs 6 tons plus....your gonna tear up alotta sh$+. Cost of repair will be the issue.
The performance of a "NEW" Zeus system will more than likely be excellent, trilling, fast, blah, blah, blah....living with one will be another story. My guess is that they will be "free-for-the-takin" in boat bone yards in 10-15 years.
Bruce, I suggest you look into what it will take to convert the Zeus drive boats into conventional inboards, now there's an emerging market.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
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John Brownlee
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scot
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John,
Yes, you are correct the concept is the same, but that's were the simularities end.
What you are reffering to is the 360 degrees Azmuthing drives in commercial vessels. Commercial vessels have a few primary advantages over private mid-sized boats; 1) The drives are enormous and the shaft rpm are very low, and the wheel is protected by a kort nozzle. 2) The vessels are designed so that the drives can be pulled up through the decks for maintenance and/or service, without dry-docking the vessel. Many actually retract for shallow water operations, etc. 3) The vessels all have a full time crew that monitors the oil levels, etc in the drives.
These drives are typically diesel/electric, meaning the drive itself is coupled to an electric motor and the diesel engines in the boat actually run generators. This creates a very smooth transfer of power and reduces the stress on the drive system greatly.
The Zeus system has much more in common with a stern drive, I/O than it does with a commercial 360 degree system. I don't think the pleasure boat industry would tolerate a drive leg that may cost $500,000.
Yes, you are correct the concept is the same, but that's were the simularities end.
What you are reffering to is the 360 degrees Azmuthing drives in commercial vessels. Commercial vessels have a few primary advantages over private mid-sized boats; 1) The drives are enormous and the shaft rpm are very low, and the wheel is protected by a kort nozzle. 2) The vessels are designed so that the drives can be pulled up through the decks for maintenance and/or service, without dry-docking the vessel. Many actually retract for shallow water operations, etc. 3) The vessels all have a full time crew that monitors the oil levels, etc in the drives.
These drives are typically diesel/electric, meaning the drive itself is coupled to an electric motor and the diesel engines in the boat actually run generators. This creates a very smooth transfer of power and reduces the stress on the drive system greatly.
The Zeus system has much more in common with a stern drive, I/O than it does with a commercial 360 degree system. I don't think the pleasure boat industry would tolerate a drive leg that may cost $500,000.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
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CaptPatrick
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John,
The easy answer is tug captains are pros & not weekend warriors. Also, tugs rarely stray into shallow water and are moving pretty slow even if they do. So the real crux of the matter is that these drives, (kind'a what UV was saying), is that they aren't necessarily a good choice for recreational boats.
On larger rec boats, like motor/megayachts they might make good sense. Again, deeper water & professional captains. In the average bubble boat, (which is where I see the industry targets), I think there's gonna' a lot of expensive carnage.
Br,
Patrick
The easy answer is tug captains are pros & not weekend warriors. Also, tugs rarely stray into shallow water and are moving pretty slow even if they do. So the real crux of the matter is that these drives, (kind'a what UV was saying), is that they aren't necessarily a good choice for recreational boats.
On larger rec boats, like motor/megayachts they might make good sense. Again, deeper water & professional captains. In the average bubble boat, (which is where I see the industry targets), I think there's gonna' a lot of expensive carnage.
Br,
Patrick
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John Brownlee
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Brewster Minton
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Not trying to stir the pot, but...
In my humble opinion, hitting something hard enough to break one of these new drives runs about the same amount of risk as pushing a standard rudder post up thru the bottom of the hull.
You gain effeciancy handling and less vibration with the new drives, but complexity and cost also increase. It's a trade off the way I see it.
Chiles
In my humble opinion, hitting something hard enough to break one of these new drives runs about the same amount of risk as pushing a standard rudder post up thru the bottom of the hull.
You gain effeciancy handling and less vibration with the new drives, but complexity and cost also increase. It's a trade off the way I see it.
Chiles
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